Maninthemachine
Active Member
Or misleading
Child birth is gross and I think very ugly
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TiSteamo
VAPEnsiero... sull'ali dorate...
yes, unless you don't have the misfortune to sit on millions of liters of oil.
Maninthemachine
Active Member
What a ignorant statement.... the best part of being reasonable beings isn’t our ability to find reasons to do whatever we may want ? Wow...that’s scary how ignorant that is.you all have no regard for life beyond your own selfish needs. I’m out as well. Don’t need to waste my energy here .
Peace and love ,
nosmoking
Just so Dab HAppy!
I doubt those mothers are saying animals are as valueable as their kids. I can try to reason and understand the vegan movement and surely there are many parts I could get on board with, however when you start comparing an animal to 1 of my 4 kids...you lose me instantly. You can deflect all you want by comparing this and that, but @His_Highness said it well enough. I suspect you would choose the cow over my kid. This ruins so much of your credibility as a person with experience and knowledge that matters. Feel free fo deflect further...I will go back in to watch mode only now...I just wanted to know rather than assume.
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure you're getting the nuances of the discussion as there have been a couple of times you disagreed with one who was agreeing with you. Is English your primary language? I don't think @Accept was making the claim 'ol Ben was Right, but that he was right. People can, and do, justify most anything they choose. That does not mean the justifications are correct.
TiSteamo
VAPEnsiero... sull'ali dorate...
This until the reasonable being meets a much more reasonable being who shows him that he is wrong.
At that point, the reasonable being has two options: to increase his own reasonableness, or to continue to believe that he is reasonable even if he is not.
I think it's called "double-talk".
@nosmoking Putting words in our mouths we never said is typical of political opportunists.
Create an enemy even when it's not there.
No one said that we prefer a cow to a child, but if it has become your slogan to show that you are right, well, keep your dullness.
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
Yes, thanks. And hopefully inspire with the example of one who was arguably wiser (and certainly funnier) than any of us.
nosmoking
Just so Dab HAppy!
Its not my slogan, but can you defend it? Call me dull? How does that help? What does that say of you? I even went as far to say I could understand and get onboard with parts of the vegan movement and then you try and lop me in with a bunch of politicians you don't like and shun me from the discussion basically. How are vegans ever going to accomplish further understanding of their moevment if this is how they act?
just_the_flu
they say im crazy but i have a good time
TiSteamo
VAPEnsiero... sull'ali dorate...
@nosmoking
I think I wrote very clearly in my previous posts.
I have not received "one" relevant answer, but only misrepresentations, misunderstandings, I think they were intended.
When "you don't want to" understand there is little to talk about.
I think I wrote very clearly in my previous posts.
I have not received "one" relevant answer, but only misrepresentations, misunderstandings, I think they were intended.
When "you don't want to" understand there is little to talk about.
ClearBlueLou
unbearably light in the being....
I went through this back when I was just a baby hippie...I went vegetarian, for a while, had as much millet and lentils as I could stand, tofu, bean sprouts....
It was sold as a superior moral position...a strange thing, if you consider that the basis of that position is the idea that we are not “morally superior” to animals and therefore have no right...that bothered me, the idea that our lack of moral superiority should impel us to make choices from a position of moral superiority.
The problem is, the “don’t eat animals” position isn’t actually a superior position - or a moral one: it’s hypocritical. A kind of hypocrisy only available to those who have never tried to support themselves with their own grown produce. Vegetable-eating animals will strip that garden down to the dirt before you ever get a single bite - and will not feel a twinge of conscience at your starvation, not consider your mate, your children, or anything else. They will do it again and again and again - as long as you keep planting gardens, should you survive from one growing season to the next. Rabbits, possums, deer, birds - just to name a few.
They do not care if you starve. They do not care if they are the agents of your starvation. They don’t give a rat’s ass about your moral position, you cannot make them honor the ‘agreement’ you imagine you make with them, to “live and let live”. Your moral posturing means nothing to the food chain. The food chain exists, no matter how you feel about it, no matter what you think about it. You are a part of it, have been since before you were born, and will be until the day you die - and beyond.
Take your sentiments to their logical conclusion, and you will find that you, and all humans - have NO right to exist, because your existence will require YOU - or someone else, on your behalf - to make choices that corrupt your moral superiority.
The animals are untroubled by your conundrums; they will eat what ever they can, and they will stay alive, or they will not eat enough and they will die. Just like you.
Life and death aren’t personal. They’re built in, no amount of finagling will undo it. *CRUELTY* otoh is *not* built in, and we humans do seem to have the market cornered there. Cruelty is as much a product of morally superior choices as is anything. Eating when others are prevented from eating, by whatever moral equation, is more or less cruel, depending on how much personal satisfaction you get out of the arrangement. Could we make our food supply less cruel? Absolutely, and I stand in favor of doing so, but PETA will not show us the way, they KILL the animals surrendered to them - an honorable, cruelty-free, *ethical* killing? Well, that’s one of those conundrums, and deciding not to make choices like that will kill you and everyone you can convince to go along.
Vegans will not show us the way, their morality is a pose, only possible when not honestly evaluated. The food chain will have you, either way. No amount of pretense will change the fact a single millimeter in any direction.
Animal-Free pie in the sky will feed no-one but the animals. If you’re ashamed to be alive if anything dies, then it’s a miserable life you have ahead of you. Die, then, and be glad your suffering is over, and be glad no four-foot has suffered for you. And pay no attention to the two-foots who mourn your passing, they are, for you, immoral fools.
Put THAT in your intellectual honesty and smoke it....
—-
I apologize to all those who find my remarks senselessly cruel and morally reprehensible....
It was sold as a superior moral position...a strange thing, if you consider that the basis of that position is the idea that we are not “morally superior” to animals and therefore have no right...that bothered me, the idea that our lack of moral superiority should impel us to make choices from a position of moral superiority.
The problem is, the “don’t eat animals” position isn’t actually a superior position - or a moral one: it’s hypocritical. A kind of hypocrisy only available to those who have never tried to support themselves with their own grown produce. Vegetable-eating animals will strip that garden down to the dirt before you ever get a single bite - and will not feel a twinge of conscience at your starvation, not consider your mate, your children, or anything else. They will do it again and again and again - as long as you keep planting gardens, should you survive from one growing season to the next. Rabbits, possums, deer, birds - just to name a few.
They do not care if you starve. They do not care if they are the agents of your starvation. They don’t give a rat’s ass about your moral position, you cannot make them honor the ‘agreement’ you imagine you make with them, to “live and let live”. Your moral posturing means nothing to the food chain. The food chain exists, no matter how you feel about it, no matter what you think about it. You are a part of it, have been since before you were born, and will be until the day you die - and beyond.
Take your sentiments to their logical conclusion, and you will find that you, and all humans - have NO right to exist, because your existence will require YOU - or someone else, on your behalf - to make choices that corrupt your moral superiority.
The animals are untroubled by your conundrums; they will eat what ever they can, and they will stay alive, or they will not eat enough and they will die. Just like you.
Life and death aren’t personal. They’re built in, no amount of finagling will undo it. *CRUELTY* otoh is *not* built in, and we humans do seem to have the market cornered there. Cruelty is as much a product of morally superior choices as is anything. Eating when others are prevented from eating, by whatever moral equation, is more or less cruel, depending on how much personal satisfaction you get out of the arrangement. Could we make our food supply less cruel? Absolutely, and I stand in favor of doing so, but PETA will not show us the way, they KILL the animals surrendered to them - an honorable, cruelty-free, *ethical* killing? Well, that’s one of those conundrums, and deciding not to make choices like that will kill you and everyone you can convince to go along.
Vegans will not show us the way, their morality is a pose, only possible when not honestly evaluated. The food chain will have you, either way. No amount of pretense will change the fact a single millimeter in any direction.
Animal-Free pie in the sky will feed no-one but the animals. If you’re ashamed to be alive if anything dies, then it’s a miserable life you have ahead of you. Die, then, and be glad your suffering is over, and be glad no four-foot has suffered for you. And pay no attention to the two-foots who mourn your passing, they are, for you, immoral fools.
Put THAT in your intellectual honesty and smoke it....
—-
I apologize to all those who find my remarks senselessly cruel and morally reprehensible....
arb
Semi shaved ape
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
Thanks so much for writing that, @ClearBlueLou. Yours is clearly an especially valuable perspective. Sorry for offending you, in particular. Have enjoyed your posts.
It seems that we agree on the most important point:
So, the problem isn't with the desire to be less cruel, it's that vegans give the impression that they believe themselves to cause no harm at all - that they're perfect. Nobody should ever give such an impression.
How can we better communicate that we don't think we're perfect, we're just trying to do the best we can?
Do you remember the Mike Judge cartoon, The Goode Family, from a few years back. Think this might be what he was getting at. Didn't like it at the time. Wasn't very good - also surrounded by judgemental vegans.
Edit: Hoping to move the vegetarian discussions to the Vegetarian Thread. Keeping this one light-hearted is evidently impossible otherwise, and it's just not fair to the OP.
It seems that we agree on the most important point:
So, the problem isn't with the desire to be less cruel, it's that vegans give the impression that they believe themselves to cause no harm at all - that they're perfect. Nobody should ever give such an impression.
How can we better communicate that we don't think we're perfect, we're just trying to do the best we can?
Do you remember the Mike Judge cartoon, The Goode Family, from a few years back. Think this might be what he was getting at. Didn't like it at the time. Wasn't very good - also surrounded by judgemental vegans.
Edit: Hoping to move the vegetarian discussions to the Vegetarian Thread. Keeping this one light-hearted is evidently impossible otherwise, and it's just not fair to the OP.
Last edited:
Ramahs
Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
ClearBlueLou
unbearably light in the being....
I am...flattered. Honored. Never been followed before.
Ramahs
Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
ClearBlueLou
unbearably light in the being....
I would like to add that there are a number of reasons for choosing to be vegan or vegetarian - the required discipline of the path, for one....
Please know that my remarks were not meant to disparage the choice itself...or, really, to disparage at all.
Please know that my remarks were not meant to disparage the choice itself...or, really, to disparage at all.
TiSteamo
VAPEnsiero... sull'ali dorate...
@ClearBlueLou
Sorry it seems a bit hysterical!
The moral superiority, if any, is in relation to other human beings who have decided not to deepen the concept of ethics.
Honestly, I didn't become veg to feel superior to others.
I just wanted to be better than I was.
I prefer to feel stupid among wise people rather than feeling wise among fools.
Animals, I repeat for the umpteenth time, are obliged to follow the laws of their instinct.
WE, on the other hand, HAVE THE FREE WILL. Theoretically.
Animals are like children. We are the adults and we must take care of them.
If there is human superiority, this means "greater responsibility" towards other forms of life and the environment.
Otherwise, I have to deduce that there is no difference between men and animals.
Both have the same rights, to live happily in peace.
I have decided to become a veg for several years now and nothing will make me change my mind and I know that I will have to bear the pressures of people who do not ask questions, of lazy people, of people indifferent to the suffering of animals, and above all to the FINANCIAL MARKET, which has considerable economics interests.
There is no worse deaf than those who do not want to hear and there is no worse blind than those who do not want to see.
You feel touched and react violently, because you know in your heart that you are wrong. And this is all.
You can live together peacefully with different opinions.
There are people who have become aware and others are not.
There are those who arrive there first and those who come after but I believe that everyone will sooner or later evolve.
Sorry it seems a bit hysterical!
The moral superiority, if any, is in relation to other human beings who have decided not to deepen the concept of ethics.
Honestly, I didn't become veg to feel superior to others.
I just wanted to be better than I was.
I prefer to feel stupid among wise people rather than feeling wise among fools.
Animals, I repeat for the umpteenth time, are obliged to follow the laws of their instinct.
WE, on the other hand, HAVE THE FREE WILL. Theoretically.
Animals are like children. We are the adults and we must take care of them.
If there is human superiority, this means "greater responsibility" towards other forms of life and the environment.
Otherwise, I have to deduce that there is no difference between men and animals.
Both have the same rights, to live happily in peace.
I have decided to become a veg for several years now and nothing will make me change my mind and I know that I will have to bear the pressures of people who do not ask questions, of lazy people, of people indifferent to the suffering of animals, and above all to the FINANCIAL MARKET, which has considerable economics interests.
There is no worse deaf than those who do not want to hear and there is no worse blind than those who do not want to see.
You feel touched and react violently, because you know in your heart that you are wrong. And this is all.
You can live together peacefully with different opinions.
There are people who have become aware and others are not.
There are those who arrive there first and those who come after but I believe that everyone will sooner or later evolve.