Ascent Vaporizer by DaVinci

[Dreamerr]

Well OF you confirmed my concerns...and while it is recovering you are burning herb hence me saying it wastes herb. I am a sipper but a serial sipper so the temp drop must have been my issue. I got vapor as I started the session but my repeated slow 5-10 second sips didn't do well with this machine. I also did cover the bottom vents and it did improve but not enough for me to like it. At least I know I was reviewing it correctly. On an added note I hate vapes that take more then a minute to warm up which this one doesn't but according to OF it takes longer then that to actually recover so that is a definite no go for my personal needs.

To each there own as we all like different things but my fears have been confirmed as far as I am concerned.

Nice set up OF as that was the only way we would get the real data. For those who don't know OF and I both used nigels unit so it was a direct comparison.

 

[OF]

Hope DV can FIX that issue, if they are still following new issues and problems.

AND, Hope it's not a firmware issue. Back on pg 108, Blackfish108 contacted DV company and no updated firmware.

What issue? I think the lag (if that's what you mean) is a direct function of design. Technique is the answer I think. Nothing to fix.....hardware or software.

It's basically impossible to modify software to correct for this with the hardware I think is there. There's no way to sense the load temperature nor accurately measure the inflow of cold air to blindly compensate for it.

I wouldn't wait on 'don't worry, we'll fix it in software'.

In the end I think it'll come down to the ceramic and glass layers between the source of the heat (the heater body on the other side of the rubber) and the load. Like insulation increasing the 'R value' of your house walls that slows the flow of replacement heat. That means time is not on your side if you want lots of vapor fast.

I think that in between hits some interesting 'redistribution' of the THC is going on perhaps. I'm having some fun 'thought experiments' on how the outer parts of the load get 'recharged' a bit over time as the load simmers at the bottom end of vaping?

Fun stuff.

Well OF you confirmed my concerns...and while it is recovering you are burning herb hence me saying it wastes herb. I am a sipper but a serial sipper so the temp drop must have been my issue. I got vapor as I started the session but my repeated slow 5-10 second sips didn't do well with this machine.

I'm not so sure it's going anywhere, for sure it's not 'burning up' at 400F. Rather I think it's evaporating and condensing in some kind of equilibrium.....like a fog bank would. Like happens in a clothes dryer. There the water vapor moves between the clothes as well as being exhausted as the machine runs. Which is why all your clothes dry together even though some held a lot more water going in.

Or not.

In any event, your not crazy. Sip at it, and give it time to recover, and it's a powerful machine I think......but fast it's really not (for the reason Hexi was discussing earlier.......limited resources).

OF

 

[grokit]

Hope DV can FIX that issue, if they are still following new issues and problems.

AND, Hope it's not a firmware issue. Back on pg 108, Blackfish108 contacted DV company and no updated firmware.

Unfortunately, it sounds like it could be a physics issue but time will tell.

 

[nigel]

Gentle Friends,

After a missed connection or two I finally got the loan of Nigel's "Burl" Ascent for some evaluation and testing.

Glad you are getting a chance to run it through its paces.

The overall cable blocks about half (or a bit less) of one hole.
Anyway, the load makes temperature eventually to a surprising agreement (remember this is half way up, near the wall):

Insulated cables restricted more LESS of the airflow than I suspected. That's good.

So, we have approx idea of the X & Y of the sensor. How about the Z? How high up in the load was it?

It's much harder to get efficient vaping with heavy hits in a smaller unit.

Subjectively I found 'sipping' slowly to be quite good, honking on it not so much so.

Hmmm.... I am definitely a sipper. I'm more inclined for the flavor than for chasing clouds. So, I'll sit there and do many many many small sips.

In OF's test, running 3x10 seconds of cold intake did seem to take a while to recover. Some of my "skull-ripping b" friends seem to want to do that all at once.

I have a feeling that my method has a smaller thermal impact, and, of course quicker thermal recovery. So that might be a key to usage.

I will note that others have produced big clouds, either directly or filling water tools. As that isn't my game, I can't speak to that usage.

 

[k0udek]

OF very nice information you're giving us, i thank you!

 

[OF]

So, we have approx idea of the X & Y of the sensor. How about the Z? How high up in the load was it?

As near as I can keep it it's in the center top to bottom. Originally I had pushed over toward the 'long side (toward the front panel) but still center 'the long way' (left and right looking at it). Like I said, now it's as close to the middle as I can keep it packing the load around it with a bamboo skewer.

FWIW I think there's some compromises available, higher heat setting, long waits between hits or slowly filling the WT and dumping it. But I agree, it makes a better sipper than ripper so far.

OF very nice information you're giving us, i thank you!

My pleasure, hopefully we'll figure a few things out about this little rascal.

Already some of the performance is making more sense to me. Hopefully we'll end up with a few useful insights.....or have some fun at least.

Thanks.

OF

 

[nopartofme]

Wow, thanks as always to OF for bringing his experience to the table, but really BIG UPS to Nigel for loaning out your unit to these experienced folks! You've brought a lot to this product launch that usually takes longer into a product's lifespan to come about. Great work.

 

[OF]

but really BIG UPS to Nigel for loaning out your unit to these experienced folks!

Yeah, turns out he's not very smart after all.....whoda thought?

OF

 

[nigel]

and while it is recovering you are burning herb hence me saying it wastes herb.

Uh.... but isn't that NOT the case? If you immediately cool it down, you're going to stop stuff from boiling off, correct?

See, OF's statement here:

the only other vape I've done it with is the Solo where I saw basically the opposite. Hitting it brought the center of the bowl temperature UP about 30 degrees:
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/arizer-solo.3833/page-729#post-450224

IMO going down in temperature between hits is much better than the other way around?

I would think RAISING the bowl during draw will cause more to cook as it cools off BETWEEN draws.
(Also potentially make more available for the next sip, if you are using short enough intervals)

I am a sipper but a serial sipper so the temp drop must have been my issue. I got vapor as I started the session but my repeated slow 5-10 second sips didn't do well with this machine.

I'm a serial sipper too, but shorter periods than that.

I'm not so sure it's going anywhere, for sure it's not 'burning up' at 400F. Rather I think it's evaporating and condensing in some kind of equilibrium.....like a fog bank would. Like happens in a clothes dryer. There the water vapor moves between the clothes as well as being exhausted as the machine runs. Which is why all your clothes dry together even though some held a lot more water going in.

Uh... it DOES go somewhere... the same place all of the heated air got evacuated to.

If you draw on it, boil off the/some target molecules, and in the process of inhalation, cool it down before inhalation is complete, have you not evacuated most every things that has been vaporized so far? And you stop the vaporization process in mid-intake by dropping the temp.

Would this not be correct? You have cycled many many many times the volume of the bowl before you are done, eliminated anything that has become airborne in the process.

A clothes dryer has a DRAMATICALLY smaller vent in relationship to its chamber than a bowl is to your lungs. Almost inversely so.

but fast it's really not (for the reason Hexi was discussing earlier.......limited resources).

Yeah, was discussing with @Adobewan last night the trade-offs and exchanges that are made.

In the example we were talking about, it was how performance was sacrificed for portability in computers. And how it took a long time to narrow that gap. I think, just as we saw in computers, we are watching that gap narrow in front of us.

IFor those who don't know OF and I both used nigels unit so it was a direct comparison.

Just for the record, I got a second unit, that OF and dreammer are testing, which may or may not behave like the unit I have held on to. I'll allow for the fact that there could be differences between the two units. Or not. I didn't NOT side-by-side compare them before sending that one out. My bad. Didn't think of that until much later.

 

[nopartofme]

Yeah, turns out he's not very smart after all.....whoda thought?

OF

Ha! Now that's not what I meant at all.

How's this: Thanks Nigel for helping the Ascent get around in the hands of more dummies!


I'll show myself out...

 

[Hippie Dickie]

i wonder if there is a current limit on the battery (ies?). lots of factors i don't know, like design of the heater, but my simple heater coil has no problem maintaining set temperature (+/- 1°F) during a hit with a 12 amp current flow.

when i was running a simple Ohm's law vape (fixed current flow), i also saw a big temp drop with a hit, and minutes to recover. AC to DC supply output was 5v @ 3 amps.

 

[Dreamerr]

No nigel, even though it is cooled it is still burning herb at the edges or maybe even the middle. It is almost a pure conduction/radiation vape from what all have reported. Even if you can't see the vapor it is burning fast. I still stand by I think the vapor is getting lost out of the grill seen or not. I will leave this more technical stuff to those that know that but we will see if I am correct. So far OF's findings proved my laywoman's results.

 

[Snappo]

OK, a little follow on data for your amusement. I dumped the ABV, centered up the sensor, and loaded a 'pretty full' bowl. .40 grams of well cured medium ground top shelf goodness. Then I fired it up setting it to 400F again.

When the display showed on temperature (400F) and the little 'making vapor' symbol lit the load was still 230F....a long way behind. Since the rise slows down a lot as you get near maximum (for a bunch of boring physics reasons) I timed it to 390 degrees (10 short) while the temperature is still changing a degree per second or so. Hopefully this gives both useful and repeatable measures? Anyway, 4:30 to 390F in the load after the vape says 'ready'. It takes five minutes (or more) to get the entire load working after Ascent says it's ready. That may explain things to some?

I then did 3 'normal' hits (full but not extreme lung fill, 10 seconds on the draw). The load temperature dose dived into the 250 to 280F range and took on average 1:30 to recover to 390F again. Shorter by far than 'up from cold' but still a problem I think for some uses.

Anyway 3 very nice hits, 2 might have been smarter...... That was pretty much the last of the battery however??? I was down to one bar having basically done 3 sessions on the original filling..... Somewhere along the line that's worth looking into. I think you can run this sucker while charging, which might be a clue to it's power useage (like does it cycle? And how often?) as well as actual consumption (seems like right now you spend more time charging than using by a wide margin?

So two timing tips:

• Give it at least a few minutes extra on start up before hitting if you want the full load involved
• Wait a minute and a half or so for the load to recover between normal hits if you want full performance

Anyway, a few more data points for you to scratch your head over......no sense in my having all the fun.

Regards.

OF

For a supposedly hi-tech vape on the cusp of a new frontier, sounds like too many major compromises to me: Bowl too big, too much air to middle of puck, cools too much between hits, wait time between hits too long, LED misinforms by too wide a margin, battery provides too few sessions, too too too much needs major torquing. Kinda makes me think that the few out there that work are a fluke. My. Solo wins, hands down.

 

[Dreamerr]

The battery life is horrible...I mailed it fully charged and was only half when it arrived. I was able to watch it die at my house while other vapes went on far longer. The battery drain while not in use is huge. I think that was being fixed but from how I read it, it was just going to be the indicator that was being fixed I am not sure about the drain. I think I read that to but am not sure.

 

[OF]

Uh.... but isn't that NOT the case? If you immediately cool it down, you're going to stop stuff from boiling off, correct?

I would think RAISING the bowl during draw will cause more to cook as it cools off BETWEEN draws.
(Also potentially make more available for the next sip, if you are using short enough intervals)

If you draw on it, boil off the/some target molecules, and in the process of inhalation, cool it down before inhalation is complete, have you not evacuated most every things that has been vaporized so far? And you stop the vaporization process in mid-intake by dropping the temp.

Would this not be correct? You have cycled many many many times the volume of the bowl before you are done, eliminated anything that has become airborne in the process.

A clothes dryer has a DRAMATICALLY smaller vent in relationship to its chamber than a bowl is to your lungs. Almost inversely so.

I'm sure it's complex, but you need to think about the temperatures.

I think in Ascent when you start to hit, the load is basically as hot as it's going to get, all that happens is cooling. Given that it was at equilibrium of sorts, THC was evaporating in places and 'wand hash' condensing in others what you get in the hit is what was 'already there' for the most part. Cool air strips out what will come and the hit 'wimps out' as the average temperature drops into the lower 300s with only the material around the edges still producing from the heat still available in the walls. Then, on reheat it goes through the 'clothes dryer mode' and the Relative Humidity (for lack of a better term) comes up to 100% and the THC in the material at the edges is replaced with that from the cooler center between hits???

That is, unlike the dryer, it changes modes on every hit.

i wonder if there is a current limit on the battery (ies?). lots of factors i don't know, like design of the heater, but my simple heater coil has no problem maintaining set temperature (+/- 1°F) during a hit with a 12 amp current flow.

when i was running a simple Ohm's law vape (fixed current flow), i also saw a big temp drop with a hit, and minutes to recover. AC to DC supply output was 5v @ 3 amps.

Understood, but this is a closed loop system for sure. It looks like it pulls something like 1.3 Amps to heat (at least that's the current draw heating in 'plugged in mode). That does seem to also use battery power as well, since charging starts up again right after??? But it's definitely regulated, lowering the setpoint drops the power to zero. It seems to run about .4 Amps when on temperature, I assume since it's a step function (not proportional) it's a first order fixed correction?

Getting a good handle on power use without cracking it should be fun.

I think a hit is like putting a warm beer in the refrigerator (to use 'negative heat'), the small load may or may not trip the cycle. Or drawing a little hot water might or might not fire up the heater?

One thing sure I can see no way to get heat back into the center fast enough to keep it from cooling off without jacking the outside heat dangerously high.

Fun stuff.

Kinda makes me think that the few out there that work are a fluke. My. Solo wins, hands down.

I'm not so sure about that first part. I think from the sort of performance I'm measuring they're all pretty much the same. The physical parts are the same, the temperatures are the same. The problems seem to have to do with smells, display quality, air leaks, concerns about the vapor path and so on. Not the temperatures, airflow or ability to make vapor within those constraints?

I like Solo too, but this has some things going for it.

OF

 

[Adobewan]

Kinda makes me think that the few out there that work are a fluke. My. Solo wins, hands down.

@Snappo, its worth considering, the Ascent has become, maybe wasn't planned to be, a work in progress for the moment.
It's only when it's final version is released that it will be fair to make such a final call.
If we went by the Solo's initial run,....

 

[Snappo]

I'm not so sure about that first part. I think from the sort of performance I'm measuring they're all pretty much the same. The physical parts are the same, the temperatures are the same. The problems seem to have to do with smells, display quality, air leaks, concerns about the vapor path and so on. Not the temperatures, airflow or ability to make vapor within those constraints?

I like Solo too, but this has some things going for it.

OF

Based on your temp gauge findings above, sluggish performance (by my standards, and vs. Solo) wins the day?! I just don't follow.

I have no doubt that one day we will have a portable with hi-tech Cloud EVO & Herbalizer performance. Looks and portability aside, the Ascent shows me nothing over current and long-time proven champs. Matter of fact, IMO, it takes a few big steps backwards.

EDIT: Adobewan - yes, I do consider the Ascent to be a work in progress, but nowhere near ready for prime time.

 

[OF]

Based on your temp gauge findings above, sluggish performance (by my standards, and vs. Solo) wins the day?! I just don't follow.

I was responding to your saying "Kinda makes me think that the few out there that work are a fluke", saying I don't agree. I think the (almost) all work, and more or less like the one I'm looking at. Again, most of the complaints seem to be about cosmetics, smells, materials and so on not about working as designed. No flukes performance wise. Unless I missed them there weren't lots of reports of failures to function?

I don't expect performance to change much given the design, and I don't expect radical changes there, do you?

In case you missed it, I started out this stuff with "Subjectively I found 'sipping' slowly to be quite good, honking on it not so much so.". I'll stick by that. Sip on it in a leisurely manner and the larger load in the Ascent more than makes up for the slow response IMO. "Quite good hits" are possible I think, just not to some people's liking. Maybe even most, but for sure not all. There is a lot to like here IMO. And some things you may not like.

For you, perhaps, Solo makes a more logical choice. I suspect for most folks even? I am not impressed enough to trade a Solo for one, let alone pay 50% more for one, but I can see how some might like this unit. IMO having lots of choices is good.

OF

 

[VaPeD&CoNfUsEd]

Mine works amazingly well! My ONLY complaints at this point are purely of a cosmetic nature.

 

[grokit]

I was thinking of @VaPeD&CoNfUsEd the whole time reading this conversation, thinking how the puck he pictured of ascent avb looked like something out of my sublimator. I call it the microwave effect, because it stayed intact, leaving a dark brown core with a lighter almost golden crust. His post is back a dozen or two pages, I think I even quoted it and posted a sub puck for comparison's sake at the time.

My results were nothing like that, and that was really the main problem with my ascent. It had a tight airpath, no off-gassing, etc. Mine just had computer glitches/heating issues so I am weighing in on the side of unit-to-unit variance for sure.

 

[Snappo]

I was responding to your saying "Kinda makes me think that the few out there that work are a fluke", saying I don't agree. I think the (almost) all work, and more or less like the one I'm looking at. Again, most of the complaints seem to be about cosmetics, smells, materials and so on not about working as designed. No flukes performance wise. Unless I missed them there weren't lots of reports of failures to function?

I don't expect performance to change much given the design, and I don't expect radical changes there, do you?

In case you missed it, I started out this stuff with "Subjectively I found 'sipping' slowly to be quite good, honking on it not so much so.". I'll stick by that. Sip on it in a leisurely manner and the larger load in the Ascent more than makes up for the slow response IMO. "Quite good hits" are possible I think, just not to some people's liking. Maybe even most, but for sure not all. There is a lot to like here IMO. And some things you may not like.

For you, perhaps, Solo makes a more logical choice. I suspect for most folks even? I am not impressed enough to trade a Solo for one, let alone pay 50% more for one, but I can see how some might like this unit. IMO having lots of choices is good.

OF

If it works, as designed, so be it...no fluke there. If that's the case, then it is simply not designed for me. I've always tended to be very picky with my choice of toys - from motorcycles to race cars, photo equipment to sound systems, puters to house tools, etc. Power, efficiency, leading edge tech, hi-perf., instant throttle response, and so on, rules the day. The Ascent just doesn't match my mind set or the aforementioned criteria imo.

 

[OF]

If it works, as designed, so be it...no fluke there. If that's the case, then it is simply not designed for me.

Very well put. For sure not for everybody, probably not even a good choice for most IMO. Not really for me either, probably, but lucky for us both there are other lovely choices out there. All it takes is money, time and patients?

OF

 

[baltik]

It's interesting that DV has featured the quick heatup time as one of the Ascen't main selling points. It now appears that the temp is being taken at the heater and not adjusted in any way for the significant time it takes for the load to reach the desired temp. This effectively takes the Ascent from the quickest portable vapes on the market to one of the slowest. It's also unfortunate that the digital display appears to be intentionally miscalibrated not capture the very quick temp drop post every hit. It appears that the all glass vapor path does introduce some significant heating inefficiencies. Hard to imagine how they "fix" this as this flaw appears very much integral to the entire design...

 

[Lazarus]

It's interesting that DV has featured the quick heatup time as one of the Ascen't main selling points. It now appears that the temp is being taken at the heater and not adjusted in any way for the significant time it takes for the load to reach the desired temp. This effectively takes the Ascent from the quickest portable vapes on the market to one of the slowest. It's also unfortunate that the digital display appears to be intentionally miscalibrated not capture the very quick temp drop post every hit. It appears that the all glass vapor path does introduce some significant heating inefficiencies. Hard to imagine how they "fix" this as this flaw appears very much integral to the entire design...

I think that that is going out on a limb a little, I don't see enough evidence to make that claim.

 

[sxmokeUP]

It's interesting that DV has featured the quick heatup time as one of the Ascen't main selling points. It now appears that the temp is being taken at the heater and not adjusted in any way for the significant time it takes for the load to reach the desired temp. This effectively takes the Ascent from the quickest portable vapes on the market to one of the slowest. It's also unfortunate that the digital display appears to be intentionally miscalibrated not capture the very quick temp drop post every hit. It appears that the all glass vapor path does introduce some significant heating inefficiencies. Hard to imagine how they "fix" this as this flaw appears very much integral to the entire design...

That is why i mentioned earlier fixing it in firmware.

I'll make a direct comparison. The heating element is a match and your finger is the bowl. Your fingernail is the bud. Imagine lighting a match and heating your fingerprint. The temperature change in the fingerprint will take a relatively short time before it reaches the temperature needed to achieve pain. It will take much longer to achieve that same temperature in the fingernail. BUT there is pain everywhere, because our brain or firmware is telling us the whole finger is burning.

Temps jumping from 380 to 400 degrees can be a firmware issue right? I mean, does it really heat that fast? And if so, why does it take do long for OF's tests to get back to 400? For the record, I believe that the firmware is the issue with jumping temps as well as for the few that couldn't get their temps above 100 degrees, showing 0##.

Due to that belief, I believe that the firmware can be tweaked to better represent the actual behavior(s) of the ascent. Regardless of design.

edit: wow, after reading this, especially the end, if this was by design, they failed at designing and developing the temp aspect.