Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by stickstones, Dec 21, 2017.
Are you saying lift it just a hair off the bottom, or lift it almost all the way out of the bowl?
I've got the answers...and you guys weren't even close.....
Convection: That white stuff they sprinkle on cookies.
Conduction: What happens when the maestro waves a baton.
Radiation: Holding a cell phone to your ear.
I'll take my warning point and go home now........
I’ve honestly never laughed this hard at reading a post on FC. Good lawd this shit is hillarious. First were vaping watermelons now we have a brand new designed vaporizer being heated by guacamole. Oh my.
@OF - forgot to tag you on my question in my post above.
Sounds like it’s time to find that meter and get busy!
Sorry, it's buried in there, "...by putting it inside the seal, just above the cup I was able...". Putting it deep into the cup, but not on the bottom, heated it by conduction (go figure), it was warm/hot before any airflow.
Thanks for checking it out. Like I said, I didn't burn myself, but that's not a solid metric......
What might you hope to glean from this?
This ‘test’ is more flawed than the ‘conduction test’ we were running for years that we pointed at to support the incorrect assumption that the Solo was conduction. The flaw being that the unit isn’t designed to vaporize without being used. For it to work as intended, the user has to draw on it. Otherwise conduction has enough time to work through the system and cook the herbs. It can’t do this under normal operating conditions. So to truly know what’s going on inside a vape we need to observe it under normal working conditions, preferably with a meter.
There is nothing normal about the test you did above. You took an empty stem (that's supposed to be filled) and held it outside the heating chamber (when it's supposed to be inserted) and then sucked on it. How is that supposed to tell you anything about the inner workings of the vape? By removing the stem you've completely changed the physics of the system and it no longer functions as intended.
To confirm/disprove my assumption that the average air available for convection heating is no where near hot enough. The stem is just a tube to draw the air through the vents (get convection going) without conduction to the glass. And it held a screen to 'collect' the heat since I didn't have a T/C handy. The stem was well sealed on the oven top with a new o-ring.
I got 'warm, but not hot' air that only slightly heated the screen (nothing like needed to make vapor).
I was not trying to simulate a normally loaded and inserted stem.
The idea is to measure the heated air though the vents. I think that since it only briefly contacts the edge of the holes (and then only a fraction of it at that), and the maximum possible is 400F, very little heating of the air actually happens. Sorry to not be clearer.
I figure if 100% of the airflow makes 'perfect contact' with 400F the average air temperature is 400F and we have a chance. If only half if it make that perfect contact, the average is now have only 235F (only 165 degrees of heating on average, not the 330 in the 100% case), not near enough.
And, with such a narrow surface, far from ideal, 'perfect contact' is also not going to happen driving the temperature even lower? If the idea was to heat the air I'd expect lots of surface contact, slow air flow and long 'dwell' times (probably fins, like you see in computer heat sinks?). None of that is here.
@OF just for you I ran a test on an empty bowl with the t/c as close to the center of the bowl I could get, which would be about 5mm from the floor of the chamber. Here is the chart:
The temp increases during the draws demonstrate the amount of convective heat entering the chamber.
Thanks, that's what I saw (and no doubt reported somewhere) with Solo when I rigged this years back. Sort of what you see with a load?
So, now I suggest removing the conduction effect (which you can clearly see since the temperature is rising long before hits (convection) happens?). I've no doubt the rise is due to forced air movement (convection) with the hit is bringing more heat to the sensor than before but believe that heat was already there by conduction for the most part. Not 'brand new' hot air fresh from the vents. Or so I'm thinking.
As I suggested above, this might end up calling for a more serious attempt, perhaps a 1/4 inch or so tube with o-rings or something of that nature? Or maybe a strip of cotton cloth (should take 400F) around the tube as an insulator/gasket to support the tube. I don't think the cup heating the air in the load area is going to have a big enough effect in this experiment, but it might. I think that volume is quickly swept out and what we have left is the incoming (convection) heated air. I think simply backing the stem up to kill conduction would be enough. My quick 'see if a screen gets hot there' test seems to say that's the case anyway.
I think the average air temperature through those vents has to be less than 400F, and by a long ways. Ironically if that's right it's convection, but cooling since it has to be heated more by heat already in the load?
Fun stuff. Thanks again.
As OF said Physics are simple here, it would need higher temps in the heater and more mass+surface to get energy in a fluid - look at the plenty in comparison more mass amd surface than the whole solo and the exchanger is heated to 330c to get the air to temp - what is the max temp inside the arizer heater?
Up to 428F (210C?), max. The hottest part is the cup, and it's typically at about 390F (190C?). Nowhere near hot enough IMO, either.
A reading on the actual temperature of 'heated air' coming through the vents will confirm this I'm thinking.
The cup might be as hot as the heater once things are at equilibrium, but it’s not possible for it to be the hottest part of the system. The heater must be the hottest part until equilibrium is reached. The cup is hotter than the glass and herbs, though, if that’s what you mean.
If I may, cup is a heat sink, irradiating and conducting heat away from heater (even when not drawing), they can be close but in order to have the heat sink and heat source at same temp, heat sink must be completely insulated otherwise it is just not possible
I tore into a Solo last night to help answer some questions. I placed a temp probe at the heater itself (the lower, smaller ceramic donut mounted under the bowl).
I then attached a probe to the floor of the chamber and heated it up.
Here is a chart showing the test up to temp 7.
The actual answer as you can see by the chart above is about 550°F which is about 170°F higher than the “cup”. This shows us that the hottest part is not the cup, it’s the heater.
I ran a test to demonstrate what is going on in the relationship between the heater and the load. This test was done on temp 4 with some sweet Jack Herer surrounding a temp probe in the middle of the load.
Once again, this clearly demonstrates the convection occurring during the hit. I think Arizer deserves a lot of credit for this design and to phoo phoo their accomplishments as some marketing ploy is not fair to them, and not fair to the readers of this forum that expect good information and not just guesses that are factually inaccurate presented as such.
Nice test @Stu ! Now I wonder why my Arizer bowl temps are usually low...yours are spot on.
But isn't it ultimately a hybrid with normal use as the oven floor is adding direct conduction? That's the way I've always viewed my Air.
First off, thanks, fun stuff. I'm not sure I follow, are you saying it's a 550F source heating the convection air? I disagree, the cup never gets that hot (the part the air contacts?). If it did, we'd combust for sure? The 170F drop is most likely an indication of heat flow (the traditional 'tell' for such stuff, like voltage or pressure drops) if it's not some artifact since we know ('for sure') the cup never gets that hot?
Otherwise, I'm not sure what to make of it. But if the point is now that 550F is heating the air, I need to think on that a bit.
Yes, convection definitely distributes energy already in the load (by conduction) when the hit (or any other circulation) happens but the heat is delivered to the load by conduction. Without conduction vapor would not happen. At least as I see it (from a power POV).
Good stuff, food for thought as they say.
An observation on the topic from a few days back: I was interested in the FF2 due to new guys favoring it over ArGo so I got curious. Similar to what I thought, but pretty neat. A convection vape? I think so too. Notice the heat source is incandescent. Past 'glowing hot'? And the air is forced into contact thoroughly before going through the homogenizer grid into the load. And consider the load itself, it's very broad and shallow. .1 grams? That too make sense since heated air is at a premium. Heating a deep column of herb (basically a heat sink) is a bad idea they avoid but Solo/Air features if also convection? Also notice the temperature setting are relative, not precise degrees (C or F) like we enjoy. I think all those things go together.
I agree Solo/Air is a great performer, they've a well earned reputation. And I get the point of not demeaning them for taking the stand they do, just pointing out that there are different points of view and interests in play. I'm sure they're sincere, I just don't agree with them for the reasons I give. Which is why I find it so refreshing that Randy at PIU took an objective look at the bits and came to the same conclusion. Without peeking I bet he's using traditional science in that.....
Just saying if we're going to use technical terms we should use them correctly (what I think folks should expect from us.....).
Anyway, are you saying the air is really heated by 550F and therefore enters the load at more than 400F please let me know. That calls for different thinking than the idea that the air is heated by the walls of the ports in the floor of the cup 'at the last instant'. I'm going on the latter assumption (meaning the temperature of what is heating the cup is irrelevant to delivering heat to the load).
Thanks again. Fun stuff.
That kind of looks like the temps of a hotplate (with a good adjusted PID controller) and the bottom of a pot on it....
It's as much 'convection pre heat' as eg Vapman gets with his 3 tiny tubes, there is just not enough surface and delta t to get fluids hot enough (a very rough calculation should be possible with temp and surface) - after all the airspace in the screw on cap that surrounds the heater is more important for insulation in this system...
@OF - when’s the last time you read Randy’s post you keep referencing? You might want to give it a re-read.
You need to give @Stu a little credit. He’s not saying the heater gets to 550F, his meter is saying it, which sounds like pretty traditional science to me. Unless you start taking meter to vape, or recognizing the results from those that do, you will have to classify yourself as the one not practicing traditional science.
It might be helpful for you to compare other hybrid vapes to the Arizer portables instead of the more convection units you reference (Cera, FF2, VG). They work differently and I think you are getting drawn off track by using those vapes to understand this hybrid.
@Used2use - it’s not the same as the vapman. The engineers at Arizer would disagree with you that there isn’t enough surface or delta to get hot enough to vaporize. They’ve designed the system and engineered it to do exactly that, which it does. They’ve done the math and we haven’t, so we have to defer to them on this point...unless you want to try your hand at it and disprove them with the math. Don’t forget the k values and the real effects created by the different materials used.
I think part of the answer is yes as the bowl get heated even before drawing.
What is showed is that convection is also relevant, if not the more relevant way in wich load get heated, so that arizer tech is really a popular exemple of hybrid vape
When talking hybrid I believe convection/radiation are the the biggest players, term conduction is diffusely misused and IMO only apply to dabbing on a hot surface as there are very few contact points between two flat metal surfaces (look microscopic; apparent contact area vs real contact area): when it is solid/liquid real contact area is equal to apparent contact area as liquid fill any space; in case of a flat metal and dry flowers the real contact area is so little that it is accountable for almost nothing IMO
Thanks, very interesting! How do you suppose the 'struck' language happened? Lawyers? The man expressed an opinion after all, one I agree with. I guess I have an opinion of why that happened, what's yours? I am still gratified that what I take to be an educated, honest man came to the same conclusions others did and take the change 'with a grain of salt'?
I have apparently left you with a false impression, I have much respect for both your and Stus efforts. I see some instrumentation problems sometimes, but full credit for the attempts and reports. Why would you think otherwise?
I'm still confused at the importance of the 550F reading (if that's not heating air), hopefully Stu can set me straight.
Science works because an experiment tests an idea. Sometimes experiments are conducted to investigate something, but that is different and IMO not really what's happening here anyway? Here an idea (heated air is used to heat the load and make vapor) is proposed, the idea is to come up with an experiment that confirms or disproves that idea? I have proposed such a test (measuring the temperature of the heated air delivered through the ports). I expect, based on my training and experience, to find the average temperature is way below that necessary to make vapor. Has anyone actually tried that? My simulations seem to indicate in my favor? The air coming into the load has to be hotter than the load to contribute to making vapor. Otherwise, if it's less than say 370F, it's not conduction heating, but conduction COOLING happening, right?
Hopefully one of you fine fellows with T/C gauges handy can run this simple test and report? How hot do you measure the air through the vents (eliminating as much conduction as possible) to be? If nobody can run that for us, I'll have to get onto recovering or replacing mine. The only one I have handy has an inappropriate probe.
Again, if the idea was to heat the air to make vapor, there just is no evidence in the design of the heater. No serious heat exchanger like known convection vapes, no higher temperatures available to heat the air past 400F so it can give up heat energy in the load and still be above 400F. Thermodynamics sets the rules here, and they are unyielding as all scientific laws are. If heat is going to flow from one place to another it has to be from a hotter place to a colder one. For convection to heat the fluid (air in our case) must be hotter 'going in than coming out'. I suggest it comes in colder than it goes out because it's been heated more by the heat already in the load by conduction. That's what 'heat soak' is all about? Convection doesn't really have this factor on it's own. I'm unaware of any convection vapes that have this factor, are you?
Also, please remember, for this reason I don't believe there is such an animal as a 'hybrid' vape really. If the air is hotter than magic temperature it's clearly convection? The work is being done by the heated air. If the air coming in is colder than magic temperature it's not making vapor, rather the opposite. It's a bit like a motor/sailer for the the boat types. You can run on 'the stink pot' (motor) at a few knots or hoist the sail and 'run with the wind' faster than the water is flowing past. At that point running the motor isn't contributing to speed, rather the opposite? Here the metric of water speed past the hull decides if the prop adds or subtracts from the total. I believe we have the same effect with vapes. If the variable (air temperature) is on one side we add to the vapor, if it's on the other it actually subtracts from it? Ironically we agree, convection is going on. We just disagree about if that's increasing or decreasing vapor production?
Fun stuff. Once again, will some kind soul please run my proposed experiment? I'm pretty confident but the only scientific proof is an objective, reproducible experiment? TIA.
I agree with that, but would argue that's why a fine grind is so important in Arizer portables.
As far as the Arizer oven goes I see radiation as being mutually exclusive with conduction. You got one you got the other as the floor would have to be hot enough to conduct vapor for any noticeable radiant heat to take place.
Dabbing in practice is a total hybrid though, conduction from the floor, radiant heat from the sidewalls, and convection from the carb cap.
i did not say that it does not vaporize - i said, it is not hot enough and with too less surface to heat the incoming air to a temp higher than the cup surface. And that is the point, most of the energy the heater creates flows into the cup by conduction, airflow does not add energy to the load.
A simple design drawing is enough to determine that, no measurements needed.
@OF - I’m not comfortable speaking for Randy, and I’m even less comfortable with you quoting him when he can’t, by rule, come here and say it himself. But I know he’s following along and he’s considering all that is being posted on it. You should strongly consider that he has changed his own opinion instead of coming up with conspiracy theories involving lawyers and greedy retailers. Drop him a line...he’s a very reasonable man!
@Used2use - Anyone who continues to argue that the temp in the bowl is stable or dropping during a draw, instead of increasing, is simply not looking at the facts presented here. Every graph posted shows the temp increasing. Air flow does add energy to the load in this heater.
It’s pretty simple to me...we all thought and argued before that it was conduction heating based on nothing but speculation and anecdotal evidence. Now we have confirmed evidence to the contrary and we need to fully entertain the hybrid model. It just doesn’t fit into the conduction model anymore and it won’t make sense if we erroneously keep trying to squeeze it in there.
Isnt air coming in through the carb cap almost ambient temp (cap isn’t hot, isn’t it?) ?
If it is then air is only kind of stirring the melted concentrate, but I may be wrong as i do not dab
Separate names with a comma.