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Any interest in a community collaboration to develop a vape?

Discussion in 'Ask FC' started by Herb-nerd, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. Herb-nerd

    Herb-nerd 7th Floor: Engineer & Designer Company Rep

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    222
    Location:
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    Hey guys as you may know i worked for 7th floor however i have decided to go my own way while stil helping with some CS issues.

    I have developed many prototypes and concepts (NOTE: i did not design the sidekick) including a herbalizer competitor that i developed for my university theisis.

    The one thing i lack is some people with other skills.

    I can simulate the thermal aspects of extraction in software, design the unit, code the MCU etc however i cant craft to save myself.

    I have a few idea's for both desktops and portables so if anyone has anything to offer or is interested in quitting a job - hit me up!
     
  2. stickstones

    stickstones Vapor concierge

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    12,260
    What skills you looking for?
     
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  3. Herb-nerd

    Herb-nerd 7th Floor: Engineer & Designer Company Rep

    Messages:
    222
    Location:
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    Maybe it is easier to state what i bring to the table and what i lack:
    I am good with all the complex electronics etc but could use help from electrically minded people also in terms of design input and maybe production.
    I would need someome well versed with glass
    also with woodworking and finishing

    A physicist or a mechanical engineer is always of assistance too.

    But mostly i need to get a solid idea off the ground that is both achievable yet the best it could be.
    After some small funding for a prototype then some larger money may be required.

    We could have a few of us working and taking a cut and keep it small on here or we could try get funding elsewhere.
     
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  4. GreenHopper

    GreenHopper 20 going on 60

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    Is this an open source project?

    Are you starting a company/business?

    Are the location requirements or expectations?

    Are you looking for full time input?

    You might want to put a small brief together. If you are going to be looking for further investment from people (cash or time) you need to have a fairly well defined idea of what you are trying to do.

    Just asking some obvious questions, sorry if I'm over stepping the mark.

    Sounds exciting, I wish you all the best.
     
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  5. Herb-nerd

    Herb-nerd 7th Floor: Engineer & Designer Company Rep

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    222
    Location:
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    You are correct - this is just the spitballing stage.

    I would prefer open-source through and through - though i would also make sure me and my colleages make a wage.

    The location requirements would be completely dependent on the vape design and the production process.
    We could have people making particular parts (wood, metal, glass) all over. It would be the assembly that would require a location i guess.

    Not full time input, unless the prospects seems to be full time employment.

    This is far from a business pitch (i am not that guy, i just make shit that sells it-self rather than pitch under a fecade)

    Also, my skin is as thick as my cock so please fire away!
     
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  6. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Sure, sounds loads of fun. At the very least it'll be fun picking your ideas apart......

    On line (public) or not, please KMA?

    Thanks.

    OF
     
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  7. Herb-nerd

    Herb-nerd 7th Floor: Engineer & Designer Company Rep

    Messages:
    222
    Location:
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    Picking my ideas apart?

    As in worst case scenario you can try prove your belief that you are superior ?
     
    OF likes this.
  8. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    If you insist.......

    Otherwise I'm happy to hold your coat.

    Regards,

    OF
     
  9. Herb-nerd

    Herb-nerd 7th Floor: Engineer & Designer Company Rep

    Messages:
    222
    Location:
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    I am not sure if i am missing the tone of this or just misread a benign statement.
     
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  10. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    18,620
    Location:
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    Sorry, I'm having a bit of fun with our common language and not being clear. And probably making too many assumptions.

    Yes, your concept seems fun. I'm up for it and am confident I can contribute at least in some small way. And yes, if at no better place than to 'pick apart' a proposed/released design in an attempt to foresee production and field issues, that's cool too.

    Clear enough?

    You know we should have pinched someone else's language. Even those of us who speak it often don't understand what the other fellow is saying, even while looking at him. You know, early on, folks here were kinda anti Brit? You've probably heard of it. Story is we came mighty close to picking German......imagine where that might have gone. Street names as long as your arm and all......

    Please KMA.

    Regards, and BEST WISHES,

    OF
     
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  11. Herb-nerd

    Herb-nerd 7th Floor: Engineer & Designer Company Rep

    Messages:
    222
    Location:
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    HAHA indeed!

    Brits tend to presume saracarm/criticism
     
    OF likes this.
  12. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Easy to hate people like that, isn't it?

    BTW aside from enjoying your national beverage, have always loved the idea of the Romans pressing North until they ran into near naked Scots attacking in the snow? Rightly decided that must be the edge of civilization.....so, in finest Roman manner built a wall across the island to keep the barbarians they couldn't simply overwhelm and absorb like everyone else seriously outside in the cold. Now that's arrogance on a grand scale. You're going to pay a couple thousand soldier to go to the other end of the known world and stand around a look Roman? Gotta love it! I had to see it. It only took me 30 years or so from the time I learned about it until I finally stood on it. Very strange feeling.

    Sorry to ramble, no charge for that. But back on the topic, yes there's a lot to hate the Brits for, the language is really the least of it. And so traditional. Even before 1066, the French didn't like them on 'their side' of the channel now did they? And not to forget the Irish.

    And they way the press gangs tended to crew their ships........yeah! That too. And they drive on the wrong side of the road......

    They have made some inroads in brewing, of course. Even if they haven't got the temperature bit right yet. And "Lucas Electrics" in their cars proves the Brits are not without a sense of humor?

    Please KMA on your venture, sounds fun from 8 time zones West.

    OF
     
  13. Dynavaper

    Dynavaper Karma Farmer

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    1,109
    Location:
    Europe
    They have a royal family with german ancestors. They must have a lot of humor! ;)
     
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  14. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    So HN, I sent you a couple of PMs a while back I'd hoped would be of value. No answers.

    It occurs to me you might not have 'got them' (known/use PMs), did you?

    It's one thing to be ignored, quite another to go unnoticed.......

    TIA

    OF
     
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  15. biohacker

    biohacker Well-Known Member

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    6,991
    FWIW, HN has not replied to my PM either.
     
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  16. Dustydurban

    Dustydurban Well-Known Member

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    I heard Lucas was Prince of Darkness:lol:
     
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  17. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. That fits the 'doesn't know about PMs' idea. Let's hope he wonders by?

    So they say. They also say the Brits drink warm beer because Lucas used to make refrigerators. Which makes sense, somehow.

    I used to work with a fellow with a faded but much loved tee shirt he'd wear 'on special days'. It was a knob for a headlight switch (complete with icon) with "Lucas" across the top. The 3 marked switch settings were 'off', 'dim', and 'flicker'.

    I used to have a photocopy of a sign someone sent me over my workbench at one place, it proudly stated "Lucas Electric Company, LTD. Open dawn to dusk, five days a week".

    Sometimes a reputation can be impossible to live down, but how much lower can you go than be replaced by a line called "Smiths"?

    Anyway, their stuff comes in some fun old cars so I'll keep playing.

    OF
     
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  18. Rat0

    Rat0 Member

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    15
    Location:
    Saint Petersburg, Russia
    Maybe You should start some kind of crowdfunding?
    It would be interesting to take part in such activity for myself, but I'm from Russia))) I have some industrial design experience and I'm eager to help you with anthng
     
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  19. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    18,620
    Location:
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    OK, the original connection seems to have gone dead, hopefully only temporarily.

    So please let me take this opportunity to 'prime the pump' some and see how interest runs? I posted in PM to the OP a long held interest of mine. Why are some vapes more efficient than others? That is why do some need less herb for the same results as others, assuming both vape rather than combust and exhaust the available THC the same (same ABV with the same strain).

    I think making the most efficient vape possible, one that makes best use of the THC, is a good goal?

    I think the key is in particle size. "Vapor" is really an aerosol. Microscopic droplets, like smoke or fog. And like fog it condenses out of the gas phase as the mixture of air and vapor cools. Controlling the process of cooling should let us control, or at least 'tweak', the size distribution.

    Why? Because as I understand it size determines ability to 'uptake' the drug. The Nebulizer (aerosol drug deliver system) and Air Pollution guys have done a lot of work here. There are four ways to absorb by respiration, two of interest to us. Size determines where it impacts the respiratory system. Big stuff (dozens of microns and up) never makes it past your throat, somewhat smaller ones to the bronchi and even smaller ones further on but sooner or later the big guys impact a wall and stick and are usually expelled without effect.

    Very tiny ones (sub micron) OTOH never impact and simply ride the 'ocean' of air molecules back out with the next exhale, again without effect.

    However, there's an 'ideal size' (few microns, thousandths of a mm) where particles small enough to deeply penetrate to places where blood is close enough to transfer along with the gas exchanges and yet big enough to overcome the impacts of molecules and 'stick' can deliver the THC where it matters.

    I'm not sure where to start, but some research (both literature searches and experiments) are in order I think. There are several useful "Aerosol Particle Size Analyzer' designs in use (mostly working with air pollution) that can give solid, repeatable readouts of size distribution. They cover a much wider range than we need in different ways. Someone would need to 'look into that' with the goal of getting one (or at least access). Initially I think the ones that use LASER beam scattering show the most promise since they scan in 'real time' and read the distribution directly unlike some systems.

    Thermovape used this idea, at least they believed that's what they were varying with different designs. "The UFO" (where vapor takes four sharp right angle turns) was a 'filter' to remove large particles. When I asked why they didn't analyze the particle sizes involved (they were very high tech and materials oriented) one of the Principals grinned and said, 'we'd rather use you Beta Testers'.

    Anyway, that's my suggestion. A group development project centered around the idea of optimized efficiency. While some 'open loop' design may evolve allowing for a portable, I think a 'first pass' might be a desktop with a bag as a buffer. Something like a 'smart Volcano' with a whip as well so that you can fire up the vapor maker part as needed in a controlled manner? That is develop a 'optimum vapor condenser' and build a vape that runs it under it's best conditions.

    Or not.

    Regards,

    OF
     
  20. Used2use

    Used2use Sometimes to stupid to become a fool

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    i think it's more complex than that - we can't say why there are different vape signatures even through bubblers...
    A larger molecule with more free radicals gets probably better absorbed than a smaller with no free radicals... - another thing with so many different compounds is cracking and possible recombination processes taking part in the vapor path
     
    OF likes this.
  21. Alexis

    Alexis Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,353
    @OF , more than just focusing on particle size, what is really called for is some broad, indepth investigation into what makes each vaporizer so different.

    The vapor from different units can be so different it is literally a different substance, with different effects physical and mental. I have a personal interest in this as I have serious and unusual allergy issues and I react very differently to different vaporizers.

    Even when the usual logical variables don't make sense. For example I recently tried the Flowerpot Showerhead. I just cannot use it at all. My allergic respiratory response is far greater, and just too severe to put up with. This is at any temp, any hit size.

    The FPSH delivers the smoothest, tastiest vapor ever. So easy to take in large hits you don't even feel it going in or in your lungs to hold, then blow out a huge cloud.

    The materials are Ti basically. The Herborizer Ti, I borrowed it to compare to the FP reaction.
    I dont have any bad reaction to the Herbo Ti which isn't in line with and fully explained by the usual variables such as my allergy to weed and vapor, hit size, heat etc.

    The materials and vapor output are very very similar with both devices. Yet one causes an apparent severe allergy type reaction in my lungs which is very specific to the FP, and the Herbo Ti does not and is very well tolerated.

    The FPSH vapor has something very different about it. They are all proclaiming it to be like flower dabbing, superiour to concentrates. The medicating power and sheer smoothness and pleasantness of the buzz from the FPSH is far better than the Herbo Ti.

    The SH just seems to deliver the broad range and deep reaching medicinal action of the herb more effevtively, efficiently and cleanly than any other vaporizer I have personally used (a good few big hitters included).

    The water tool also has a very strong disstinctive pong to it with the SH and needs a clean more often. Reclaim goo starts to collect on the glass much faster than normal, with my XL Herborizer and the Ti as well, it just isnt noticeable.

    With the FPSH it is visible in a single day. The ABV also has a VERY strange and strong smell to it. Not unpleasant, just unique. Almost a little "petrolly". And it stays remarkably light and uniform in color at lower temps (500-600F).

    I also used hemp fiber to stop particles. After 2 small bowls it was really sticky. I used too much and it was blocking the flow. I vaped a piece of the hemp fiber in the SH and it gave me a bigger and better hit than the 2 bowls together. It was like a dab, and I have neve done a dab lol!:lol: There is something different about the form of the vapor. It is in more of un untarnished, untransformed "oil" state.

    Anyway, I honestly dont know what it is. It could be the unadultarated nature of the compounds which triggers a greater allergic response in my lungs, being more pure and powerful hence the immune reaction is upped. Just one thought I have.

    Still very strange though. There is literally physics alchemy taking place here (I love that word!)
    Both the FP and Herbo Ti heat air passing super hot Titanium to produce similar sized clouds, very similar airflow and hit size. Power still close, the Ti is a top desktop, but there is something very special and advanced about the way the Showerhead turns green herb into vaporized actives.

    What governs these massive variations? Why are different but very similar units so vastly different in the pure nature of the vapor they produce, with noticeably different effects, far more so for some individuals?

    I would LOVE to know this. I am currently uaing the XL Herborizer and the Ti vapcap. But I want a better, more current desktop (XL is 12 years old and is a slow extractor), with faster extraction and more powerful effects- less medicating time and smaller loads as well for fast extraction.

    The Herbo Ti is the best option I know of currently which I know I can use. But I don't believe it is the best vape, or offers the best quality and most potent vapor, having now tried the Showerhead that is.
    The Showerhead won't work for me.
    I am very soon about to try another recent and revolutionary heavy hitting desktop, which has it's own special alchemy extraction.

    Very close and similar to the FPSH I believe in terms of vapor purity, extraction power, hit size etc. But different materials though, more "neutral". I won't say more, it is still a secret actually.;)

    If it doesn't work for me, I will learn some more and have more to consider. Likewise if it does work and matches the power and purity of the FP.


    So, @OF , see what you can find out on this very understudied topic, and PLEASE let me know what the explanation is. Thank you in advance for solving this riddle for me and have a very nice day.:tup:
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  22. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

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    18,620
    Location:
    Left Coast
    I agree, a useful but more ambitious project for sure. That kind of analysis is harder, we need to separate out fractions and use mass spec or something to characterize what they are chemically.

    I didn't mention it seems, but a particle size analyzer would be a good place to start feeding the vapor from different vapes to compare results of size measurements to effects?

    A big issue for sure, one already under study by the Nebulizer guys.

    I like the idea. We assume the vapor is always made of the same chemicals extracted without change from the herb......and assumptions are their own trap.

    Great suggestion, just what I hope we can build on. I doubt that I personally/alone will resolve this, but if I do you can be assured I won't be shy about sharing it here.....that's what Forums are for, right?

    Thanks for the thoughts.

    OF

    Edit: It seems once again I've assumed folks would follow my thinking automatically, sorry about that. I should have pointed out that trying to figure out the practical aspects of this will mean we'll need a LOT of volunteers to do a lot of testing. Thankless hours testing and trying to make sense of the differences. Probably means prototypes for serious Alpha (and eventually Beta) testing. Anyone have any ideas were we can find such volunteers?

    OF
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  23. Alexis

    Alexis Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree here, by all means shine a bright spotlight on this, Im not meaning to deter this path at all. This alone could bring grand revelation and food for thought.

    As for the rest, Im not really expecting answers very soon, I just think that asking these questions across the community will lead to increasing insights over time. If this world holds together and technology keeps coming along, in some decades we should have a vastly superior knowledge of these matters.

    But can any of us really predict what kind of future world we will bw living in 20 years from now?
    The thouht scares me to be honest, though I do hope for the best. It is either:
    The road to utopia?
    Or armageddon?
    The same old quicksand downward slide stuck on pause somehow 20 years on, same old shit...

    We'll see. Plenty more possibilities as well I'm sure. But I sure wouldn't like to call it right now!
     
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