Adhesives, Insulation and Vape Safety
- Thread starter momofthegoons
- Start date
No problem, wish I could be of more help. If I get different info in the future I'd be happy to share it.
Do the several specific brands of alumina fiber insulation read differently than one another in any significant way? Maybe only brands that have some kind of specialized formula bother to make unique sheets?
@ boobs - thanks dude, can you assemble it and flip it around so we can see the resistor penetration? Ok that didn't sound good but you probably get my point lol..
Do the several specific brands of alumina fiber insulation read differently than one another in any significant way? Maybe only brands that have some kind of specialized formula bother to make unique sheets?
@ boobs - thanks dude, can you assemble it and flip it around so we can see the resistor penetration? Ok that didn't sound good but you probably get my point lol..
ilovebOObs
can i stick my male joint in there?
that is actually alan's pic. the core just screws into the wooden body of the HI. i'm waiting for my HI to cool down then i can take what ever pics you need.
Actually I would say that the pod is the most open design. It is effectively a large wooden chamber with a resistor sticking up from the bottom into a glass tube suspended from the top. The difference with the pod is that the air entering the centre tube has not been preheated because it is drawn through holes in the cool lower portion of the pod. All other log vape designs draw air from the top, preheating it before it does a u-turn at the bottom and up the centre tube.
stickstones - You are correct. The HI core air flow happens in almost the same manner as the drawing Dave provided. The differences are that there are no star washers (empty design), the glass bead is long / thin and used only for electrical insulation, the hole in the bottom is open to allow for removal of the resistor for maintenance / replacement, and the resistor is located higher up in the tube (centered). The PD is the only one I know of without a closed bottom core. The two resistor wires must come together through a hole in the center for the closed core design to work. Obviously the hole in the center does not provide for a sealed core design, but air flowing through the core only touches stainless steel surfaces and the resistor / wires. I have found that the stainless steel transfers heat faster to the air than does glass. Stainless is also much more durable.
Here is the photo I had previously posted of the HI internals. The center tube is mechanically fastened to the washer and the outer sleeve is then mechanically fastened to the washer (no welding) to create one integral unit. This view shows the 6 air intake holes in the center tube. The intake air will take the path of least resistance which is through the 6 intake holes and up the center tube past the hot resistor. The 6 holes in the center tube physically restrict the flow of heat energy out to the wood to 1/3 of the resistor heat generation capacity. This makes insulation unnecessary and minimizes any caramelization of the wood. The heat still makes it to the wood but at a much slower rate. The power plug threads in the bottom hole to provide an air tight seal and provide proper positioning of the resistor in the center tube.
This post already explained the position of the resistor. The debris screen is in about 3/8" from the end of the tube and rests directly on the resistor.
The HI starts with a 3/8" hole through the center of the wood. A 3/4" hole is bored in one end of the wood. A 1" hole is bored in the other end of the wood. The 3/8" hole in the wood that remains is tapped for the power socket. That is all there is to a HI. Other than the wood body, you are looking at the entire HI design in the above photo. Absolutely nothing is hidden from view. The only difference now is that the outer sleeve is mechanically fastened to the bottom washer to make an integrated cup. The core is just one piece now. This photo actually provides a better view than when the core is all together.
momofthegoons
vapor accessory addict
Do the several specific brands of alumina fiber insulation read differently than one another in any significant way? Maybe only brands that have some kind of specialized formula bother to make unique sheets?
Dave, when I did my search, I used the words "alumina fiber insulation" as my search. Several links turned up. If you look up the product names that this comes under, there are some that read differently than others. For instance this was the first link that popped up and it had some disturbing facts on it.
http://www.rsifibre.com/pdfs/Alumina-Blanket-3000-MSDS-9-24-10.pdf
Here is another link for a MSDS sheet that shows testing done in 2001 by various cancer agencies that found the insulation to have properties that could cause cancer.
I am not claiming your vape has any of the brands covered by these studies. But the unknown factor in your insulation does not make me comfortable.
Dave, I feel this is the time to thank you for your apology and kind offer to replace my UD with a new one that suits my needs. I am going to have to respectfully decline. I feel that our philosophies on how log vapes are made is very different. I do not like having glue and adhesives in my vape. Nothing that I have learned has changed that opinion. I do not understand the need to use these materials, especially since you don't need to, which is evident by your offer to me and by the other log vapes that do not use these materials.
This is my opinion. There are many who disagree with me and who do not mind having these materials in their vape and that is their prerogative. They feel this method of manufacture is safe. It has to be up to the individual to determine what they find acceptable, based on an informed decision. For me, there are too many unknowns.
HighlyEducatedScholar
Student of Vapor
i read through both of the links you provided mom. in the first link, i didn't really find any disturbing facts in the article. although the most disturbing statement would be "may cause respiratory tract irritation" so from a medical perspective i can see how that would be an issue. however, in the second link where you found that it to have properties that could cause cancer, it also states "see section 11 for more information." In section 11, it is discussed that recent lab tests have shown there have been no evidence of increased respiratory disease and that in "earlier studies...the observations were clinically insignificant."
zmurder
Well-Known Member
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/twelfth/profiles/CeramicFibers.pdf
Says there aren't enough conclusive studies on humans. But does say
Says there aren't enough conclusive studies on humans. But does say
Thanks for the additional information on the insulation Mom. When I read them I don't see any undue cause for concern so I think you must be right in that we have very different philosophies on the subject. I can respect that.
I'm sorry to hear that I won't get a chance to try and change your mind with a custom UD; I was looking forward to it honestly.
Just to be clear you do understand I meant I could make you one out of single piece of unglued wood without any silicone, insulation or adhesives right? I was hoping to make you one with no objectionable materials and that you could easily take apart to inspect, etc.
Oh well, no worries in the big sense of things but still a little bummed I won't be able to get a chance to change your experience to a good one.
I'm sorry to hear that I won't get a chance to try and change your mind with a custom UD; I was looking forward to it honestly.
Just to be clear you do understand I meant I could make you one out of single piece of unglued wood without any silicone, insulation or adhesives right? I was hoping to make you one with no objectionable materials and that you could easily take apart to inspect, etc.
Oh well, no worries in the big sense of things but still a little bummed I won't be able to get a chance to change your experience to a good one.
t-dub
Vapor Sloth
I think the key word, for me, here is "ceramic fibers". Anyone remember Asbestos? Wonder if those "ceramic fibers" look anything like Asbestos fibers under a microscope . . .
I also want to reiterate that I am looking at this through the eyes of a medical patient with very special needs. Needs that are becoming more mainstream. I won't bother you with details but there are a few of us out here.
u bwade wunner
Well-Known Member
I really dont mind what you u put inside youre log vaporizers.
In all fairness A list of ALL components of your e log vapes inc. glues and insulations components should be listed in the opening post of your'e log thread.thats the right thing to Do.
Right I m going further on this one
If you agree on a simple materials breakdown of every log in the manufacturers opening post. PM me or chip in here.
I would like to see something done about this once and for all
In all fairness A list of ALL components of your e log vapes inc. glues and insulations components should be listed in the opening post of your'e log thread.thats the right thing to Do.
Right I m going further on this one
If you agree on a simple materials breakdown of every log in the manufacturers opening post. PM me or chip in here.
I would like to see something done about this once and for all
Frederick McGuire
Aggressively Loungey
While I like the sound of everyone disclosing what's in the vapes they are selling, I don't think there should be a specific requirement for log vapes over any other type.
What do you mean by "something done about this"?
If you're implying some kind of special rule for log vape makers, I don't think that'd be fair...
Why doesn't 7th floor, or Arizer, or Storz and Bickel, or insert other bigger "brand name" vape manufaxturer here Have the same requirement?
EDIT:
Example, I opened up my LSV not too long ago to fix it's power cord, and inside of the unit had a very distinct "this stinks of electronics" smell to it.
But that's all inside the body, and completely out of the air path (also entirely unnoticeable when the body is closed).
I haven't heard anyone have a 2nd thought about the safety of a 7th floor product (nor do I have any doubts in my mind)
What do you mean by "something done about this"?
If you're implying some kind of special rule for log vape makers, I don't think that'd be fair...
Why doesn't 7th floor, or Arizer, or Storz and Bickel, or insert other bigger "brand name" vape manufaxturer here Have the same requirement?
EDIT:
Example, I opened up my LSV not too long ago to fix it's power cord, and inside of the unit had a very distinct "this stinks of electronics" smell to it.
But that's all inside the body, and completely out of the air path (also entirely unnoticeable when the body is closed).
I haven't heard anyone have a 2nd thought about the safety of a 7th floor product (nor do I have any doubts in my mind)
u bwade wunner
Well-Known Member
I see log vaporizers as different, natural organic pieces made with similar parts,built around a simple ceramic resistor and generally made by a craftsman in a home workshop. different to mass produced units.If there is glue, or chemical products used in its construction i want to know so i can buy a different product
.Maybe thats just me I dont want any of it in my trusty woody.a materials list will tell me what i need to know .I'd like to see a materials list at the start of each log thread .I think it would benefit the customer but hey
momofthegoons
vapor accessory addict
While you and Dave may not find anything alarming in the links I posted, I found this statement to be of concern in the MSDS of my first link. It is the first line in section 3, Hazards Identification:
Again, I realize that in section 11, it has the same disclaimer as the second link; that the studies were only conclusive in the ones they did with animals.
In the next section of Potential Health Effects it states this:
and under the catagory of Hazard Classification in states this:
Again, I realize the findings were in animals and not humans, but I feel there is risk.
While the second link that I posted does say that the sampling of workers they tested did not have significant lung damage. However, I highly doubt the animals tested had the benefit of the respiratory protection that the manufacturer recommends using when working with the product. Many of the workers in these factories are mandated to use respiratory protection by OSHA.
Again, I am not accusing Dave of using the products in these links. It isn't known which of the alumina fiber insulations he is using so there is no way to tell.
Rename Rev Ye Us
Member
I can see why you are concerned. I'm pretty new to the world of vapes and never really worried about what materials were used in construction of my UD before I purchased it - but I am relatively healthy recreational user with no pre-existing medical conditions and figured that any vape would be a trillion times better for me than combusting! This discussion has given me a lot to think about and I appreciate you starting it.
Dave, if you are really looking forward to making a custom vegan dog I'll happily take it of your hands
stickstones
Vapor concierge
For anyone who wasn't around, this whole thing reminds of the Tom/Rick/Brass/SS issue a couple years ago.
Rick had been using brass since the beginning because it was easy to work with. Tom took the same design, tweaked it and changed the brass to SS (stainless steel). Then debate broke out about the safety of brass (thus the dedicated thread), since SS was considered safe. Turns out brass brought up concerns for some due to its having lead in it. Now no one had ever reported sick or dying from a Zap (Rick's log vape), but the issue kept coming up "why continue to use brass when it might have health concerns when a viable, better alternative is right there?" Eventually Rick converted to SS, created a bottom seal on his core and then came up with the Rock Zap. His vapes are incredibly popular and better than ever.
Here we have Dave making sealed cores using questionable (for some) materials in the sealing process. Is it safe? I don't know, but probably. No one is reporting sick (we have mom's smells, but other vapes have reported having smells) or dying from a Dog. Dave's wife is using one, so unless he is one of those psychos trying to slowly poison his wife for the insurance, I gotta believe he thinks it's safe. I doubt he will ever have any health problems reported from the vapes that are out there currently. But the question will keep coming up as long as those materials are in there when a possibly safer (and certainly more mind easing), and maybe cheaper to construct, alternative is right there.
Dave is already offering different designs for his Dogs. I bet this adhesive/silicone design falls by the wayside as demand switches from that to one percieved to be 'cleaner'. What I really hope is that Dave has a moment like Rick where he decides to abandon the 'questionable' materials, no matter how safe then end up being, and makes some design changes that blow us all away. He has already changed the game with his custom wood options, so I know he can think outside the box with success.
Rick had been using brass since the beginning because it was easy to work with. Tom took the same design, tweaked it and changed the brass to SS (stainless steel). Then debate broke out about the safety of brass (thus the dedicated thread), since SS was considered safe. Turns out brass brought up concerns for some due to its having lead in it. Now no one had ever reported sick or dying from a Zap (Rick's log vape), but the issue kept coming up "why continue to use brass when it might have health concerns when a viable, better alternative is right there?" Eventually Rick converted to SS, created a bottom seal on his core and then came up with the Rock Zap. His vapes are incredibly popular and better than ever.
Here we have Dave making sealed cores using questionable (for some) materials in the sealing process. Is it safe? I don't know, but probably. No one is reporting sick (we have mom's smells, but other vapes have reported having smells) or dying from a Dog. Dave's wife is using one, so unless he is one of those psychos trying to slowly poison his wife for the insurance, I gotta believe he thinks it's safe. I doubt he will ever have any health problems reported from the vapes that are out there currently. But the question will keep coming up as long as those materials are in there when a possibly safer (and certainly more mind easing), and maybe cheaper to construct, alternative is right there.
Dave is already offering different designs for his Dogs. I bet this adhesive/silicone design falls by the wayside as demand switches from that to one percieved to be 'cleaner'. What I really hope is that Dave has a moment like Rick where he decides to abandon the 'questionable' materials, no matter how safe then end up being, and makes some design changes that blow us all away. He has already changed the game with his custom wood options, so I know he can think outside the box with success.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
I don't think the possible use of either of those insulation and the MSDS sheets say anything about philosophy. They do say a lot about hazards, including "Cancer", inhalation hazards, fibrous man-made materials. Sorry... no philosophy alarms going off in my head.
I'm puzzled that you and Scholar, that you're comfortable with those warnings.
Perhaps both of you can explain your philosophies, so I can better understand how their physical effect, especially to people that DO have specific medical needs, that require that absence of possible carcinogens used in their vapor utensils. Or, just people concerned about not increasing their odds of cancer or just simple lung irritation.
Now, if you're talking about the particular material you're using... because its MSDS sheet reads differently, well... then I can certainly understand. However, I don't remember you providing a link to the specific material you use. This is a discussion about those specific materials, not generalized ones.
NOTE: I am not pointing this out, for any other reason than stated above. This isn't personal, with the exception of my health. Which, given my situation (terminal, like many others, I'm sure)... I think we deserve answers to these material questions, than just being blown off, with little regard to what is actually said. If questioning that philosophy of materials, is wrong, nor acceptable... then I shall bow out of the discussion now. I worded my response very carefully, while leaving a sense of why I and others, might be concerned.
momofthegoons
vapor accessory addict
BigDaddy, I think what Dave was saying is that we agree on my statement that my philosophy on what is acceptable in a vape differs from his.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Yeah, was going back thru (I hate fuzzy memory, damn you pharmaceutical induced HYPO tension - low blood flow to the brain, why I pass out and have temporary black outs) and saw you actually brought up the philosophy statement. However, my statements/questions stand. Its still a valid point. How is the use of a possible health risk material a question of "philosophy", unless we're talking profits vs safety?
That's concerning to me, regardless of who brought it up.
That's concerning to me, regardless of who brought it up.
zymos
Well-Known Member
The philosophy part comes from whether you consider the presence of a material significant whether or not it is in the vapor path, being heated etc. Many people have commented that if they aren't going to be breathing it, they are not concerned.
Others have made it clear that any material that might be dangerous in any situation is simply not OK.
Neither group is right or wrong, IMO, it is a personal decision about the level of acceptable risk- one of many decisions we all make all the time.
Where did you get your weed? Tons of commercial growers use things that I would personally never consume.
What about that battery in the MFLB? Look up what the M in NiMH stands for- metals that have health warnings.
Pretty much ANY electrical vape has stuff you don't want to intentionally breath- what if the plastic bits of the power connectors melted?
There are plenty of examples where people are making decisions in their lives, which is where the philosophy part comes in.
Some people seem to recognize that...
Others have made it clear that any material that might be dangerous in any situation is simply not OK.
Neither group is right or wrong, IMO, it is a personal decision about the level of acceptable risk- one of many decisions we all make all the time.
Where did you get your weed? Tons of commercial growers use things that I would personally never consume.
What about that battery in the MFLB? Look up what the M in NiMH stands for- metals that have health warnings.
Pretty much ANY electrical vape has stuff you don't want to intentionally breath- what if the plastic bits of the power connectors melted?
There are plenty of examples where people are making decisions in their lives, which is where the philosophy part comes in.
Some people seem to recognize that...
WatTyler
Revolting Peasant
It a very simple philosophy; how risk averse you are. Each to their own.
If you're really risk averse then don't vape at all. Lungs aren't designed as a drug delivery system, and it's probable that there's some risk involved with asking them to clean up lots of vape gunk each day over a prolonged period, instead of processing clean, pollution free air. There are lots of people out there who don't want to vape for this very reason, and instead pursue edibles. Each to their own, again.
The facts are out so there's no need to prolong the drama with opinions. If customers want change they'll vote with their dollars and I'm sure it will be delivered.
If you're really risk averse then don't vape at all. Lungs aren't designed as a drug delivery system, and it's probable that there's some risk involved with asking them to clean up lots of vape gunk each day over a prolonged period, instead of processing clean, pollution free air. There are lots of people out there who don't want to vape for this very reason, and instead pursue edibles. Each to their own, again.
The facts are out so there's no need to prolong the drama with opinions. If customers want change they'll vote with their dollars and I'm sure it will be delivered.
Rick
Zapman
I have to agree with SS on this one and will now add my two cents.
First, I want to ask, as I did over the brass issue, how does any questionable smell or chemical or fiber or particle get delivered to the device user? How can that happen with a 'closed' vapor airflow? We are supposed to be talking materials here, not philosophy. How does the bad material connect with the vape user? or does it?
Why the singling out of log vapes? I thought all vapes listed at FC produce vapor? Why not the same scrutiny for all vaporizers?
I am seeing some ganging up on a single manufacturer over possible questionable materials used in his product. Ironically, a competing manufacturer is chiming in regularly now and displaying his product purity in the process. Not one person has explained how the assumed bad stuff gets to the user.
Sounds like the same fear crap I went through. No one ever answered that question for me when I was the bad guy.(how does the bad stuff get to the user)
How does the bad stuff get to the user?
It appears to me Dave is trying to make a better product as we all do when folks talk about reservations over our products. What else do we want from Dave?
Yup, brings back memories. Funny thing is, the guy who stirred the shit in my case is gone and told us all we were fucked when he left FC with no more communication to any past customer or anybody. Interesting final chapter on that drama that went on for a long time.
The questions have been brought up and answered the way they were answered. The manufacturer is trying to improve his product as we all do. Some folks do not want his product and some do want it.
OK, cool.
How does any bad material get delivered to the user? I want facts BTW, not theories about imaginations that defy the laws of physics and air flow.
Having said that, I agree if there are no questionable materials anywhere in a product, there can be no questions about the safety of those materials in that product. DUH. Tell that to medical equipment manufacturers. They stick us and poke us and do this and that and do it using no hazardous materials in their products? Bullshit. They DO protect us from those hazardous materials by the construction of the devices.
You all seem to be missing the final step. Connect the dots. How does anything bad get to the user?
One more thing here. We are not making breathing devices. We are making cannabis delivery devices. We are producing hot air rather than a flame. Is the air going through the load clean or not?
I'll make some comments on our product on my thread later today sometime.
Another thing that pisses me off while I am in the mood. Folks that say they will not post anymore, then they totally ignore their own word and shit on someone......again.
First, I want to ask, as I did over the brass issue, how does any questionable smell or chemical or fiber or particle get delivered to the device user? How can that happen with a 'closed' vapor airflow? We are supposed to be talking materials here, not philosophy. How does the bad material connect with the vape user? or does it?
Why the singling out of log vapes? I thought all vapes listed at FC produce vapor? Why not the same scrutiny for all vaporizers?
I am seeing some ganging up on a single manufacturer over possible questionable materials used in his product. Ironically, a competing manufacturer is chiming in regularly now and displaying his product purity in the process. Not one person has explained how the assumed bad stuff gets to the user.
Sounds like the same fear crap I went through. No one ever answered that question for me when I was the bad guy.(how does the bad stuff get to the user)
How does the bad stuff get to the user?
It appears to me Dave is trying to make a better product as we all do when folks talk about reservations over our products. What else do we want from Dave?
Yup, brings back memories. Funny thing is, the guy who stirred the shit in my case is gone and told us all we were fucked when he left FC with no more communication to any past customer or anybody. Interesting final chapter on that drama that went on for a long time.
The questions have been brought up and answered the way they were answered. The manufacturer is trying to improve his product as we all do. Some folks do not want his product and some do want it.
OK, cool.
How does any bad material get delivered to the user? I want facts BTW, not theories about imaginations that defy the laws of physics and air flow.
Having said that, I agree if there are no questionable materials anywhere in a product, there can be no questions about the safety of those materials in that product. DUH. Tell that to medical equipment manufacturers. They stick us and poke us and do this and that and do it using no hazardous materials in their products? Bullshit. They DO protect us from those hazardous materials by the construction of the devices.
You all seem to be missing the final step. Connect the dots. How does anything bad get to the user?
One more thing here. We are not making breathing devices. We are making cannabis delivery devices. We are producing hot air rather than a flame. Is the air going through the load clean or not?
I'll make some comments on our product on my thread later today sometime.
Another thing that pisses me off while I am in the mood. Folks that say they will not post anymore, then they totally ignore their own word and shit on someone......again.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
The facts aren't out there, that's the problem. We're asking and expecting all these particular vape manufacturers to provide a list of ALL materials used. In fact, Dave was the one who brought it up, that they ALL should.
So far, I haven't heard specifically what material, nor an MSDS sheet for the insulation used in the UD. A couple of request have been made, but no compliance. In fact, quite the opposite.
zymos, if you want to start micro knit-picking, you might as well throw dust in the air to. Wat, I don't think we would be having this discussion, if anyone here was risk averse to vaping, do you?
Do you have the facts? Link?
So far, I haven't heard specifically what material, nor an MSDS sheet for the insulation used in the UD. A couple of request have been made, but no compliance. In fact, quite the opposite.
zymos, if you want to start micro knit-picking, you might as well throw dust in the air to. Wat, I don't think we would be having this discussion, if anyone here was risk averse to vaping, do you?
Do you have the facts? Link?
HighlyEducatedScholar
Student of Vapor
BDV, im not sure how else to explain my perspective in a situation like this. i guess its my own 'philosophy' or 'personal decision' or whatever you may call it for my opinions on the materials used in the UD vape.
as others have stated, i don't believe that a material that is outside of the airpath will have a detrimental effect on my health and also wouldn't be too much of a bother because i am not a medical patient as i understand many of you may be so im not as sensitive to certain aspects.
however, i hope we can just agree to disagree on something like this where it calls into account on our personal decisions and our 'philosophies.' i would rather not start any controversy and argue with any of you, we're all friends here
as others have stated, i don't believe that a material that is outside of the airpath will have a detrimental effect on my health and also wouldn't be too much of a bother because i am not a medical patient as i understand many of you may be so im not as sensitive to certain aspects.
however, i hope we can just agree to disagree on something like this where it calls into account on our personal decisions and our 'philosophies.' i would rather not start any controversy and argue with any of you, we're all friends here
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Any particular examples? The mods have been monitoring this thread, quite closely. I think any case of shitting on someone, would be handled rather quickly.
As for someone posting after saying they're leaving, since when is that a signed in blood oath? People aren't allowed to change their mind? Maybe something new came up, for them to air a concern. Is it in the ToS?
Do you have a specific example, so that we might decide for ourselves, if this is a case of someone breaking their solemn word and breaking board rules, with derogatory commentary? I would be interested in seeing it, if this is the case.
As for you claim that one vapor manufacturer is being picked on, well it just so happens, his product started the topic. He also, opened up the door for OTHERS to do what was asked of him. IRONICALLY, that's the point when any one of them chimed in, with the purity in their process. That observation from you, isn't anything more than conjecture and a bit slanderous in its intent. Unless you meant otherwise?