Adhesives, Insulation and Vape Safety

[Alan]

generally, not referencing any particular design, the air intake will depend on the volume of outflow (outward pressure). So, a larger toke could pull air from more than the specific intake holes.

There has been some discussion in other threads about lowering the air pressure in the herb chamber to facilitate vapor extraction. Kind of a related concept. Depends on the design.

Inhaling on the roasting tube will create a lower pressure within the 3/8" center tube. Higher pressure room air will find its way into that low pressure space. The only pathway for the room air to go is from the top and down into the intake holes. There is no other pathway into the bottom cavity for room air to flow so there will be no air drawn from the bottom cavity. The only other hole into the bottom has a heating element threaded in to block it off.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Glass is not a particularly good conductor of heat. Stainless steel conducts heat a bit better. Aluminium conducts heat a lot better. When I designed the pod, I chose to use glass to contain the resistor because I want as little heat as possible seeping away from the hot spot. What I have discovered from the work of others and my own experiments is that the air reaches maximum temperature once it passes over the resistor. This is the hottest part of the whole system. Every other part of the vape is at a lower temperature than this. In fact, every other part of the vaporizer is pulling heat away from the heat source, reducing its efficiency. For this reason I have decided that heatsinks, fins, etc are of no advantage and may instead cause energy to be wasted. There is some preheating of the air as it first passes through these parts but I believe that this offers no advantage to its final temperature. If it were possible I would prefer to contain the resistor with a material that had zero thermal conductivity. That way I could be sure that all of the heat energy from the resistor is being dissipated into the airstream. Glass was the best material I could find for this purpose.

We're saying the same thing. Taken on its own, "glass is a good heat conductor...", isn't the most accurate statement. However, as you explained and I was commenting on, for the purpose of heating uniformly and heat retention... glass is a better option, in my opinion.

Thanks for posting more on the properties of the materials, however. Can't believe I forgot aluminum in there.

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[darkrom]

I disagree darkrom.....maybe take a look back at mom's original pics and tell me again you wanna be breathing through that rig. Not to keep bringing it back to the HI.....but it seems to solve the problems we're talking about here. No silicon, Gorilla Glue, hot wood, solder, or plug exposed to the core. This is made possible b/c the resistor screws up into its isolated chamber.

Well your implying that you actually breathe through any of the pics she posted. Shouldn't every single pic she posted be isolated from the air path completely?

Also it may be worth finally bringing up the point that we don't really know exactly HOW this particular underdog in question was used. Some people here stuffed them in blankets and have run them at higher voltages (myself included with the higher voltages and car supplies) that definitely increase the operating temperature. I'm sure we all agree I could take a HI and run it at 16 volts and nearly if not totally engulf the thing in flames. I'm not making accusations at ALL right now, simply stating we have no idea what kind of use or abuse this underdog was subjected to.

Again it comes back to if this is isolated from the air path or not. I think my point about the cloud being full of electronics, yet having a closed air path and being considered incredibly pure is one that we need to think about too. Does it matter what is in the vape, maybe not. It really only matter what we are inhaling doesn't it? Otherwise the iolite would also be ruled out. Very few vapes are totally inert material, the key is not inhaling anything dangerous plain and simple. What we need is a scientist with a tool to determine what gasses if any are being released by these vapes while they are idling at full temp. Too bad there are no members (that we know of) with access to these kind of tools. We could make testing ALL vapes very easy if we had such a thing.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

[DELETED BY ME]

 

[darkrom]

Who did I accuse of what at ANY point? I'm saying several underdog owners have openly increased the operating temperature ON PURPOSE. Myself included. That is a fact, not an accusation. IDK who Mom got the vape from do you? I can't accuse the unknown seller, and I stated I'm not accusing Mom. I've calmed down from my initial over reactions in this thread, it seems you are unwilling to be mature and do the same. I am simply including an extra variable. These vapes are not all used properly and this was a second hand vaporizer...how do we know how it was used?

 

[momofthegoons]

Also it may be worth finally bringing up the point that we don't really know exactly HOW this particular underdog in question was used. Some people here stuffed them in blankets and have run them at higher voltages (myself included with the higher voltages and car supplies) that definitely increase the operating temperature. I'm sure we all agree I could take a HI and run it at 16 volts and nearly if not totally engulf the thing in flames. I'm not making accusations at ALL right now, simply stating we have no idea what kind of use or abuse this underdog was subjected to.

I plugged the UD I purchased in to the wall using a 12v wall adaptor, which is the adapter I used each time I used this UD. I left it on overnight the first day and used it several times. The smell concerned me by that evening. This means it had been plugged in from mail delivery to the time I went to bed; approx. 6 hours. I unplugged it. The next day, I plugged it in that evening and let it warm up. I used it. I smelled the smell and unplugged it. I plugged it in the next morning and used it once it had heated up; approx. 1 hour (and that's approx. how long I let it heat up each time). I smelled the smell and unplugged it for the last time without using it.

Now, how long Dave had it plugged in and how it was "abused" by him before he sold it to me, I have no idea.

IDK who Mom got the vape from do you?

I bought the vape from Dave darkrom. For the Abysmal cause.

My understanding is that any comments here are supposed to be about materials only, per stickstones. Seems like quite a few of us have gotten off track here?

 

[darkrom]

I bought the vape from Dave darkrom. For the Abysmal cause.

My apologies. I was under the impression that you bought it used from another member. Like I said I wasn't suggesting you did any tampering. If I had known it was bought from Dave I wouldn't have even brought that point up at all. I'm sure Dave doesn't abuse these things after all

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

[DELETED BY ME]

 

[momofthegoons]

Okay guys, sticks made it real clear that anyone posting ANYTHING about ANYTHING that didn't have to do with material and safety would get a warning. Let's get back on track.

 

[stickstones]

bdv...your last three posts aimed at darkrom are taking this thread in the wrong direction.

 

[underdog]

@ darkrom - Mom got the piece directly from me and it was new and unused other than the standard pretty exhaustive burn-in period and testing here. I'm pretty sure she was using it with the stock power supply I provided so I think we can rule out most of those concerns.

It did go through the burn-in and testing phase here as do all UDs before they leave here. The burn-in and testing is pretty damn aggressive and typically for 72+ hours minimum. I also used this piece for a few evenings for vaping as I occasionally do with some pieces (especially Lost Dogs) before sending them on their way. As I posted earlier I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary with the unit or it's function and certainly didn't find it to have any odors, chemical or otherwise.

Simply put I have no idea what went wrong with Mom's experience with the UD, the problems she described are certainly not the norm or anything to be expected from any UD piece so I really am at a loss.

All the above being said and now that we've all had a chance to cool down (including myself of course) I accept that Mom seriously must have some kind of issue as she describes or I don't think she would have made this post. I have apologized for my first inflammatory response but if it wasn't direct enough I'd like to do it again:

MoTG I'm sorry you had a bad UD experience and that I wasn't able to help you solve it to your (or my) satisfaction. I'm sorry that I snapped at you, insulted you and responded as unprofessionally as I did. I was upset and angry but that doesn't justify my behavior or my treatment of you. While I can't explain the experience you had I still think it must have been due to something besides the materials used in the piece as I am still confident of their suitability as used. I don't suppose we will ever really know why your experience was so bad but again I do feel bad about it and again even more so about my actions after the fact.

I'd like to offer to make you a new piece, to your specs and with the materials of your choosing to see if we can't turn your bad experience into a positive one. If you want to give that a shot I would only ask that you send back the remains of the dead Dog so that I can try to find out what might have went wrong.

Looking forward to continuing to move this thread in a positive direction and will continue to try and do so.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

bdv...your last three posts aimed at darkrom are taking this thread in the wrong direction.

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Respectfully, you're the boss. I shall drop the matter and take necessary actions, for it to be a non-issue.

 

[zmurder]

delete

Edit: materials only peeps

Edit 2: I promise this post wasn't like super mean or anything before I erased it....just didn't move the conversation forward

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Wow, coincidence. I was looking for another answer to a MFLB question and literally stumbled across this, in their FAQ.

Isn't wood also organic and inherently porous -- a breeding ground for bacteria and fungi?

This is simply not true. Wood has natural resistive aspects that actively prevent the breeding of bacteria, fungi, and mold. Keep in mind that the growing tree in nature has a strong incentive to evolve in a direction that will preserve and protect its wood from invasions of these exact types. Each of the various types of wood have various oils and aromatics within the wood itself that work to protect the wood. Magic-Flight does not need to add these -- they are already there and are much better functionally than anything we could invent. Wood has to be exposed to wind, rain, and sunlight a fairly long time for bio-degrade to be possible in nature -- years, typically. When we add sealants to the wood, it slows this process by a factor of 10x or 20X. Therefore, given the average of the exposure environments and this slowing, the wood in the Box should be able to last a hundred years or more -- plenty long enough.

If you have any doubt of these facts, consider that there have been safety studies conducted on the relative merits of wood cutting boards in the kitchen vs Teflon ones. Although some vendors would prefer that you not know this, it is actually the case that Teflon cutting boards are far worse breeding grounds for bacteria and fungi than wood ones. Both types of cutting boards have tiny grooves in them (due to the action of the knife while in normal use) -- grooves which can provide a home for bacteria and fungi. However, while the Teflon boards are inert, and thus do nothing to inhibit the growth of these cells, the natural oils in the wood make it much less likely that such cells can multiply and survive. These studies have shown that for most folk in most situations, wooden cutting boards are far safer. Only in industrial kitchens that regularly clean with chemical sterilization techniques can the disadvantage of Teflon be (temporarily) offset.

Keep in mind also that the need to "perfectly clean" the unit is purely a psychological one and/or a legal one -- it is not (and never has been) a functional issue. People want to remove all trace of what was put into the Box as a reaction to an improperly designed set of prohibition laws. These laws are themselves reactionary, disabling, and needing to get fixed. If we are going to "improve" or "fix" something, lets concentrate our efforts on what is going really solve the problem and be effective -- repeal the ridiculous plant prohibition laws!

 

[t-dub]

Interesting, no references however. Last time I went in for surgery I didn't see any wood in the operating room. And wood is notorious for harboring fungi, like the sponge in your sink, just ask anyone who grows mushrooms, you must sterilize your wood medium, utilizing a pressure cooker until its mush, or your culture will fail every time.

My next door neighbor got fungal meningitis and almost died from sniffing a piece of spalted maple, or the dust from working with it, that he got at the senior center . . .

So, as someone with a suppressed immune system, personally, I have opted out on wood.

 

[Vicki]

Interesting, no references however. Last time I went in for surgery I didn't see any wood in the operating room. And wood is notorious for harboring fungi, like the sponge in your sink, just ask anyone who grows mushrooms, you must sterilize your wood medium or your culture will fail every time.

My next door neighbor got fungal meningitis and almost died from sniffing a piece of spalted maple, or the dust from working with it, that he got at the senior center . . .

So, as someone with a suppressed immune system, personally, I have opted out on wood.

I've been using wood vaporizers for many years with no ill effects. (Vapor Brothers, Vapor Warez, Magic Flight Launch Box)

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

I had much more ill effects using My "All glass" DBV,HAkko mod and the MW than any of the 4 UDs i have tried sofar !
On the other hand MFLB gave me pretty harsh time too.. .

 

[darkrom]

I had much more ill effects using My "All glass" DBV,HAkko mod and the MW than any of the 4 UDs i have tried sofar !
On the other hand MFLB gave me pretty harsh time too.. .

And I've had nothing but pleasure from my dbv when I had it. Mflb was good for a year or 2 then wouldn't work with a tolerance at all IMO. Funny how different everyone reacts.

 

[quentin123]

Concerning the information that BDV posted relevant to wooden chopping boards in kitchens, I have been told that exact same thing by many, many chef's who complain because we have to use colour coded plastic ones for health and safety reasons. They all say that wood (I suppose it depends on the wood) contains natural chemicals which will stop bacterial growth.

 

[hazy]

Last time I went in for surgery I didn't see any wood in the operating room.

And last time I went into my kitchen it didn't look like a surgery. I'm sorry to hear about your condition. Unfortunately some natural products may be a risk for you. I have only ever met one other person in a similar situation.

There are many examples of plants that have both edible and toxic parts- cashews are a good example, as is rhubarb.

I understand where you're coming from but from my admittedly layman's understanding of nature I feel that there are evolutionary reasons why plants develop toxicity in their various parts. Using one of your examples, the cashew seed has a toxic coating which needs to be neutralised by roasting. What is the evolutionary purpose of this toxic coating? It is obvious that it is there to protect the seed within from being eaten, as it is a rich and desirable food source for animals. Likewise, rhubarb leaves have developed toxicity to discourage a particular species from eating them. They did not evolve toxins in the stalk part because that species may not have found the stalk attractive as food. Banksia pods on the other hand are nectar producing flower spikes which are designed to attract animals to assist in cross pollination. It does not make any sense why a plant's attractive parts would also be poisonous. It serves the plant no purpose and the plant would need to use additional energy to create the toxins as well, so it would never have evolved.

Although Banksias may seem exotic to many, in Australia they are extremely common with large forests of them adjacent to major cities. They are very well documented, having been studied since over 200 years ago. I have grown up with these trees and never have I heard any mention of toxicity, despite being aware of a number of other unrelated toxic species. I could only find one online source that mentioned anything about toxicity.

 

[underdog]

Good points Hazy and great info.. I think Banksia pods are a great material (as you already know). I've turned bunches of them over the years and have never seen, heard or read of anything that would give anyone the slightest concerns in my experience.

I read somewhere (but have never verified) that natives (not sure where) used to actually pick the fruits and drink the nectar straight out of them and also then refill them with water and do it again. They're like a nature-made prehistoric juice box!

 

[stickstones]

We need to keep in mind the application here. There is a difference between eating or drinking something versus breathing hot air as it passes over it. I'm not suggesting that log style vapes are dangerous because of the natural material, I'm just saying I don't think the logic is transferrable due to the use.

Unfortunately, we are probably a long way off from the kind of testing necessary for our applications.

 

[darkrom]

I can't think of the name of the tool that analyzes the makeup of the gasses being sucked into it. Anyone?

If anyone AT ALL had access to one of these, we could simply dry fire any and all vapes into it and see what came out right?

I think as smart as some of this forum is, we need some pre-defined safety test, and this is the only one I think would be very useful. I don't have a clue how doable any of that is, but I'd imagine with all these members it would be in the realm of possibility?

 

[vorrange]

If i had a serious health problem that warranted care in the materials, i would stick only to glass.

Next would be wood, then ceramic and only then metal.

Plastics, soldering, electric circuits and other compounds.. only if there is nothing wrong with you.

For everytime science discovers something new, there is a potential threat to be uncovered or dismissed. So, there is really no way of knowing anything for sure.

It is up to each one, individually, to assess how far down the line you are willing to go.

I can't think of the name of the tool that analyzes the makeup of the gasses being sucked into it. Anyone?

If anyone AT ALL had access to one of these, we could simply dry fire any and all vapes into it and see what came out right?

I think as smart as some of this forum is, we need some pre-defined safety test, and this is the only one I think would be very useful. I don't have a clue how doable any of that is, but I'd imagine with all these members it would be in the realm of possibility?

I agree there should be a pre-defined test but how would you go about it? And wouldn't that be similar or less efective than consulting the bill of material of the vape in question and search for the data sheets with all information about that material?

I think that our improvised way has worked well so far and we have curbed most threats when they happened.

 

[zymos]

Hazy- wasn't attacking your choice of materials ( those things are gorgeous- if I could afford another vape I'd be coveting one), but the poor logic of thinking if a plant has edible parts then the whole thing is necessarily non toxic.

Darkrom- GLC, HPLC, mass spectrometer.... I think there are several...