No apologies needed. If everyone who posted in the wrong thread apologized, that would really cut into my Maui time.
Ascent Vaporizer - The Ordering, Shipping, & Other Nonsense thread
- Thread starter nigel
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No apologies needed. If everyone who posted in the wrong thread apologized, that would really cut into my Maui time.
brewer
Well-Known Member
Since this is the gibberish thread....
(Hey look! I didn't double/triple/quadruple/quintuple-post!)
Uh... yeah they do. They selected the best informed and RABID user-base to seed to. After the video-reviewers, who do you think their best salespersons on the internet would be? Random fabcebook users? I think not.
Well, see... there you go making my point for me.Sorta.
Well, again, yeah they did. *Deliberately* for our benefit. It's a "i'll scratch your back, and you'll be pleased enough to scratch mine, and while you are at it, not shut up about scratching all over the damn interwebs" kinda-thang.
Well, there you go again proving my point for me.
People tend to forget that any mutually agreed upon interaction is to the perceptive-advantage of BOTH parties. Or culture has ruined us to think that everything is zero-sum.
BAD CULTURE, BAD!!
[SIDENOTE: Brewer-- not really pickin' on you here... jus' pickin' on some of your comments.Really minor distinctions, but, Hey! this is the gibberish thread!
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ummm... Keeping drinkin' the kool aid, i guess.
Gotta say I am taking notes on how DV successfully brainwashed you into thinking DV accepting your money was for your benefit?
But keep up the DV worship like they are some sort of saint.
That just confirms to me, as a business man, how easily customers are duped; I'll use the same marketing and pre-registration ploy for my next business venture
They're just a successful business, no different than any other, making products people like and being profitable at it. That's all great!! But it isn't for YOUR or MY or anyone else's benefit; it's for theirs. The way it has always been, should be, as always will be! You are delusional for thinking otherwise...
So I just plain disagree--but keep thinking DV is benevolent, compassionate, and the nicest people out there--only concerned about you--as they separate you from your wallet so successfully. They got you to be obsessed with a gadget and them... Amazing marketing!
In sum, DV doesn't care what customer they sell to first nor do they sell anything for our benefit... The free for all sales last night pretty much showed that... And it is a win-win situation, a good bargained-for-exchange--->but all they bargained for was your money.
My bet is they waited long enough to have plenty of Ascents on hand so that the sale last night sold as many as possible. Good!! I love it, and I want one! But don't be deluded into thinking they had a special unit set aside for you or anyone else...
Sure some people got them first---product testers and what not, and some distributors and venders have first dibs on units--but those are actual, enforceable contracts designed to help make DV MONEY; in contrast, the pre-registration was a marketing gimmick and unenforceable promise by DV to get you a unit first--and you bought it hook, line, and sinker....
nigel
And shepherds we shall be,for Accuracy & Discovery
Heh... my post was mainly tongue-in-cheek. I think most people got that.
But I thought my closing statement made it clear, that it a broad general position I was aserting, and actually had little to do with this current situation, other than as an example of the cultural perception.
Heh... and again, the reply validates my statement.
I don't think the two points are that far different -- More of a "glass half empty vs glass half full" thing.
But it is, you see.
ANY company (and again, not really talking about DaVinci or this specific situation, but any mutual exchange) *IS* trying to do things for my benefit.
That's how they, as you put it, "separate you from your wallet so successfully". They create value enough for me (okay, maybe not me specifically, but you get the point), for me to give them something I care about less than the value I gain from the exchange. Otherwise I wouldn't enter into the exchange.
Are they doing it for their benefit also? ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY! Otherwise they wouldn't do it.
See... there you go, making my point for me again.
Told you our points were pretty close.
But I thought my closing statement made it clear, that it a broad general position I was aserting, and actually had little to do with this current situation, other than as an example of the cultural perception.
Heh... and again, the reply validates my statement.
I don't think the two points are that far different -- More of a "glass half empty vs glass half full" thing.
But it is, you see.
ANY company (and again, not really talking about DaVinci or this specific situation, but any mutual exchange) *IS* trying to do things for my benefit.
That's how they, as you put it, "separate you from your wallet so successfully". They create value enough for me (okay, maybe not me specifically, but you get the point), for me to give them something I care about less than the value I gain from the exchange. Otherwise I wouldn't enter into the exchange.
Are they doing it for their benefit also? ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY! Otherwise they wouldn't do it.
See... there you go, making my point for me again.
Told you our points were pretty close.
voluptuousvapor
New Member
So if i didn't receive a pre-registration email does that mean i won't be getting one or do i just have to wait?
sam reynolds
because "Samantha" is a mouthful.
Wait. Mine came last night for a Friday order.
They are having more presales a today and tomorrow at the same time as last night.
nigel
And shepherds we shall be,for Accuracy & Discovery
VaPeD is correct.
They are sending out notifications in batches, with each having a different sales day. Tonight there should be another batch for sales on... Monday is it? Then another batch of email tomorrow night.
They haven't said either how large the batches are, nor how many there are, so hang in there!
It's come up many times in the assorted threads that someone else runs the FB account, and stuff gets posted there that shouldn't be. It's a mistake.
And it seems the pre-sale has been a whole barrel of mistakes.
Well I was number 415 or so and I got my email with a date for friday last night about 20 minutes after I ordered lol. So I think the batches are somewhere in the 150-200 range.
HMCS.AVENGER
Member
hmmm this is going to be interesting.
brewer
Well-Known Member
You're niave; DV, as I, or anyone, would sell ice to an Eskimo if the Eskimo would buy it.
For example, when pet rocks were all the rage, I guess you think sellers of such product were trying to "benefit" buyers?!
DV just wants your money and that's not a bad thing. Hell, I gave them money--but the difference between me and you is that I am not deluded into thinking they accepted the money for my benefit....
In other words, I gave my them my money because I want their product, and they accepted it regardless of whether I was "benefited."
Geez, man, come on... "bargained-for-exchange" is legal lingo to determine whether a legally binding contract with consideration (a legal detriment or benefit) has been formed--it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with whether a seller, such as DV, actually (i.e., subjectively) intended any benefit upon a buyer.
If DV really wanted to benefit me--they would encourage me not to waste money on yet another, unneeded, vaporizer--e.g., toy--and they would encourage me to the put the money to some other "beneficial" use.
Prediction: Everyone who ordered a unit last night gets one within a few days of each other; the registration just helped DV determine demand for units.
lwien
Well-Known Member
LOL. I think both you guys are right, but just coming from different perspectives.
Typically, a seller has to present a "feature/benefit" scenario before a potential customer can see any benefit in purchasing the product, so in that way, a seller does want a customer to believe that they are deriving some kind of benefit from what it is that they are selling.
The bottom line motive for a seller is to do one thing..............sell....and he/she does that by providing a perceived benefit to the consumer. Can that benefit actually be realized by that consumer? Sometimes. Sometimes not. The best scenario is obviously a win win for both the consumer and the seller because what that does is provide the absolute best and cheapest form of advertising.........word of mouth.
Typically, a seller has to present a "feature/benefit" scenario before a potential customer can see any benefit in purchasing the product, so in that way, a seller does want a customer to believe that they are deriving some kind of benefit from what it is that they are selling.
The bottom line motive for a seller is to do one thing..............sell....and he/she does that by providing a perceived benefit to the consumer. Can that benefit actually be realized by that consumer? Sometimes. Sometimes not. The best scenario is obviously a win win for both the consumer and the seller because what that does is provide the absolute best and cheapest form of advertising.........word of mouth.
Personally, I don't over-burden myself with a concern for whether the seller cares one wit (has it in their heart) for what benefits me...in most cases I think that would be incredibly naive. What I do concern myself with is whether or not the product is well thought out, has a benefit for me and mine, and dealings are fair and honest. Business is supply and demand, bottom line.
Now, that said, I will submit that when I recieved the wrong product in not one, but two consecutive shipments from EZVAPES.COM, they bent over backwards to make it right for me (my benefit). Ultimately that has worked out well for them (their benefit). Goodwill in business practices is a mutual benefit dynamic - and a plus in my book
You GO JCAT!!!
Brewer ...I gotta go with JCAT on this. Your argument to me is what I call "Lawyering the Truth". It sounds all legal and tidy in a legal brief, but won't sway a jury. JMO
Now, that said, I will submit that when I recieved the wrong product in not one, but two consecutive shipments from EZVAPES.COM, they bent over backwards to make it right for me (my benefit). Ultimately that has worked out well for them (their benefit). Goodwill in business practices is a mutual benefit dynamic - and a plus in my bookYou GO JCAT!!!
Brewer ...I gotta go with JCAT on this. Your argument to me is what I call "Lawyering the Truth". It sounds all legal and tidy in a legal brief, but won't sway a jury. JMO
I completely disagree with this ... I personally would NOT sell ice to an Eskimo just because they would buy it (continuing with the analogy). I do operate a small business and have been involved in Sales for >20 years (owned my first retails sales business about 20 years ago in fact ... I've never since gotten involved in a retail sales venture, but did work some sales jobs while in University and I sell my ideas to my main company (which is not always easy) and sell my services and technology to support my customers with my side business ... I have many times advised my customers against spending money (that I would benefit from) in order to ensure that they are happy with the service and product in the end. I would rather not make a sale then sell them something they don't need or want and that brings them no value (I feel that would be unethical, and on top of that, these things come back to bite you in the ass so its not all altruistic, however, the end result is the same ... I won't sell my customer something just because they'll buy it ... I only want to sell them something that will bring them equal or greater value than what they are paying, otherwise I am shooting myself in the foot in the long run and on top of that would feel really bad about my dealings)
Maybe I'm a sucker, but I refuse to lead my life believing everyone is trying to screw me ... people, including sales people, and especially those that are vested in the company they are working for, are often quite genuine, and its as important to them that you are happy with a sale as it is to them to make a sale; this isn't completely altruistic, as its a good business model as it builds enormous customer loyalty, but doesn't change the fact that I wish all companies acted in this way putting there "best foot forward" first.
Planet Vape is a good example of a company that does this ... they've always treated me extremely well and have even advised me against purchasing products when I've asked them about. They could have just taken my money these times, but instead opted to lose the sale in favor of giving me good advice so I don't make a purchase that they didn't feel would meet my needs.
Same here ... is DV making money off all of us ... for sure ... are they TRYING to make sure we are all satisfied customers and trying to make good on their commitments (they even offered on the board here to check ... PM DV ... if you didn't get an email and thought you should have ... I emailed them and they sorted it out for me right away and yes they got a sale out of it but the customer service was nonetheless excellent, and after the pre-sale, they even PM'd me to make sure I had gotten through as they advised me they would help me out if I didn't.
ALL companies are trying to make money, that's a given, but I would venture that many (unfortunately probably not most), even do so in a way that makes them feel good about what they do and the products they are selling.
brewer
Well-Known Member
The seller cares less about benefiting the buyer. End of story. Bottom line. The seller just wants a legally enforceable contract that will "benefit" THEM.
That "benefit," you speak of, to the seller is just the seller's motive for entering into the contract. Usually the "benefit" the seller seeks is money from the buyer. And, again, the seller cares less about any benefit to buyer; the seller just wants a contract (e.g., legally binding promise that buyer pays seller) that benefits the seller!
On the other hand, for example, a seller can contract with a buyer and the consideration to make that contract legally enforceable can just as easily be a "detriment" to the buyer--and in that case the buyer does the opposite of receiving a benefit--->they suffer a detriment. That detriment makes the contract legally enforceable. E.g., non-compete or exclusive purchase agreements.
Hope you guys are taking notes.... Normally, I charge $250 an hour...
Thanks for the personal anecdote. When I ordered from DV, I guess I missed the part where they asked me if I really should buy their product and also missed the part where they asked me whether I should think twice and spend my money more wisely on something else...
Let me be clear, making money is a good thing; the most beneficial thing to society, e.g., the best social welfare program ever invented, is a PROFITABLE business---> because without profitable businesses nothing else is possible in society.
Along those lines, I am not so arrogant, ivory tower thinking, or omniscient to believe that I know what products [or services] are worthy of being sold...."or what people will feel good about." Rather, I believe people can contract to buy or sell most anything within obvious bounds and only pecker-woods cast judgment on what another does for a living.
I just had a dealing with a company, where I e-mailed them after the fact, explaining how I wasn't overly pleased with a product, didn't quite meet my needs, giving them the reasons, even indicating that I did not expect my money back as I had given it a pretty good try and due to circumstances, just didn't quite work for me (but nothing wrong with the product and after my use I knew it had no resale value)
They are insisting I take a full refund for it and all accessories (about $100) unless I find a use for the battery in which case they will issue me a partial refund (this is 100% to their loss as they get nothing back from the manufacturer)
This is an example of a seller putting my needs ahead of them making money even though they have a legally enforceable contract and have no obligation (or expectation whatsoever) to issue me a refund of any type at all (I was shocked it was actually offered and wasn't why I contacted them)
Is this 100% to my benefit with none for them? No ... definitely not ... they take a loss here but gain customer loyalty which will in the long run benefit them. So maybe I'm agreeing with you in some ways brewer ... we just approach things from a different perspective?
... chicken or egg, chicken or egg ...
Your welcome ... no they did not ... you are correct ... however, who has the time for that? This is only a $250 purchase ... it's not tens of thousands or even thousands ... I do, however, still believe that their intent is to deliver a product to everyone that they will be happy with and if they new in advance that one wouldn't be happy with it I'd bet they'd rather not have the sale than have the hassle and negative publicity from a dissatisfied customer. I also believe that they truly would like to see FC members, and anyone else that pre-registered, get their units first. Do they promise this? No. Will they turn down other sales? No ... of course not ... that being said, the intent/effort is there IMHO.
Anyways ... I've rambled on long enough ... ethical business practice and dealings in general are something I take to heart though, so I can get a little worked up
No offense meant to anyone by the way and apologize if any was taken ... just meant to be a friendly debate offering differing points of view
They are insisting I take a full refund for it and all accessories (about $100) unless I find a use for the battery in which case they will issue me a partial refund (this is 100% to their loss as they get nothing back from the manufacturer)
This is an example of a seller putting my needs ahead of them making money even though they have a legally enforceable contract and have no obligation (or expectation whatsoever) to issue me a refund of any type at all (I was shocked it was actually offered and wasn't why I contacted them)
Is this 100% to my benefit with none for them? No ... definitely not ... they take a loss here but gain customer loyalty which will in the long run benefit them. So maybe I'm agreeing with you in some ways brewer ... we just approach things from a different perspective?
... chicken or egg, chicken or egg ...Your welcome
... no they did not ... you are correct ... however, who has the time for that? This is only a $250 purchase ... it's not tens of thousands or even thousands ... I do, however, still believe that their intent is to deliver a product to everyone that they will be happy with and if they new in advance that one wouldn't be happy with it I'd bet they'd rather not have the sale than have the hassle and negative publicity from a dissatisfied customer. I also believe that they truly would like to see FC members, and anyone else that pre-registered, get their units first. Do they promise this? No. Will they turn down other sales? No ... of course not ... that being said, the intent/effort is there IMHO.Anyways ... I've rambled on long enough ... ethical business practice and dealings in general are something I take to heart though, so I can get a little worked up
No offense meant to anyone by the way and apologize if any was taken ... just meant to be a friendly debate offering differing points of view
lwien
Well-Known Member
Brewer, I've been in the sales, marketing, advertising game in the retail arena longer than most here have been alive. Early in my career, I was the VP of Sales of a 42 store consumer electronics chain here in So Cal and part of my responsibility was to train our store sales mangers in how to train their salespeople.
If ANY of them could "care less about benefiting the buyer", they would be fired on the spot........by me. End of story. Bottom line.
Wanting a contract that benefits the seller and carrying about providing a benefit to the buyer is not mutually exclusive.
While I agree that there are many companies who operate like you describe, there are many who don't and to make a general statement implying that they all follow your set of criteria is just not true, as is most all general, sweeping statements.
Hope YOU'RE taking notes 'cause I usually charge $500 an hour. Consulting fees don't come cheap, especially if they're a benefit to you.
lwien
Well-Known Member
brewer
Well-Known Member
Look man, how you train sales customers is kinda irrelevant... And you've bought into your own line of crap. Which is fine.... But don't expect me to.
Bottom line is no business is in the business to benefit anyone but the business. That's moral, rational, and a good thing. It's also literally the bottom line. If they were in business to benefit others they would be called charities. Bottom line. End of story.
I get you're point about mutual exclusivity; however, bottom line if one of your salesman isn't making you money and is just "benefiting" consumers--then you should fire them... Because they are hurting your business, its employees, and your bank account. They would also be hurting society by bankrupting a profitable business--the most moral and virtuous thing anyone can aspire to own.
I think you're just playing the marketing game by saying "we care about [whomever or whatever] more than making money."
No, you want to make money and feed your family. You sleep better at night if people like how you make money, but that's not relevant to this discussion. Businesses don't operate to benefit consumers--they operate to make money/benefit the business--benefiting other people is just ancillary. The invisible hand so to speak as Adam Smith put it...
For example, you could care less if your sales people sell a thousand units (of whatever) to whomever and they just throw them away as soon as they received them--you'll still sell those units (benefit yourself) to them! And since they are thrown away--they are not benefiting anyone else!!! But you would still do it. And if you didn't that doesn't benefit anyone, and hurts your business and society.
That again, is just rationale self-interest manifesting itself in a management policy; if you piss off all your customers then your company goes under. But that fact doesn't change the FACT that you operate your business to make money and benefit no one but your company and self. When you tell people you care--> it's just another sales/marketing technique, because the whole point of being in business is benefit the company not the consumer. End of story. Bottom line. Unless you are a charity?!
And unless you're telling me you are checking up with all your customers to make sure they spending their money wisely?! But I doubt it. No, you'll just accept their money and provide them a widget or a service in exchange. Maybe you'll tell them how great your product is--but that's just convincing yourself about your supposed moral virtue of caring about benefiting them more than benefiting yourself. You're deluding yourself. Just be honest, instead. You sell things to benefit your self regardless of the consumer's benefit.
That is because selling things benefits you---and you'll do it--regardless of what benefit or not the customer receives. So long as they don't sue you and you're not liable--you don't care. That's okay, moral, and virtuous.
It is mutually exclusive in the sense that if you don't get a benefit as a seller you don't contract with the buyer. Bottom line. End of story. Unless you are a charity?!
The companies that admit they exist solely to benefit themselves are HONEST. I respect them more to be honest!!!!
The companies, and sounds like yourself, that PRETEND to care about how they are "benefiting" their customers are just spewing a load of happy horseshit. Whatever...
Hope YOU'RE taking notes 'cause I usually charge $500 an hour. Consulting fees don't come cheap, especially if they're a benefit to you.
That's too much money and you are not "benefiting" your customers enough; you are being greedy, and should care more about "benefiting" your customers rather than that selfish greedy $500 per hour rate.
I, on the other hand, charge a compassionate rate--'cause all I care about are my customers "benefiting." Do you see how that is all bullshit?! You charge as much as you can---as do i--and although my services may, and nearly always do benefit my clients--I don't care if it actually does--all I care about is benefiting myself--and doing what I told them I would do at the agreed upon rate. Their subjective feelings are completely irrelevant to me. I just want to be paid. (I might brag myself up, describe how I benefit them, but the ONLY reason i do that is get more work from them and others they speak to).
In other words, geez, man.... come on?! Who believes that shit about caring about "benefiting" customers?! It's just sales and marketing to get more customers--because customers feel better about paying people who pretend to care. And it is pretending---unless you work for free--which at $500 per hour--YOU don't.
Instead, just be honest---people go into business to benefit themselves. You charge $500 per hour to benefit no one but your self. Others may derive a benefit from your work, but that isn't why you contract with them!
By everyone acting in their own self interest--we all benefit as a community--without the BS of some people claiming the "holier than thou" attitude--because they allegedly care about "benefiting" others.
I call bullshit... No one, nor his or her job, is more holy than another's--especially not just because one person claims to care about "benefiting" the people they do business with more than themselves!
That's total malarkey.
To tie this into our discussion about DV and the Ascent---> They had people pre-register to determine the demand for their new product and hype the product release to maximize sales. That benefited them by knowing how much to invest in this little gizmo and by knowing how much money they will potentially make. Forums like this allow them to determine what product with what features will sell AND BENEFIT DV. They don't care if the product actually benefits customers--they care the customer buys their product, regardless of the customer's reasoning or derived benefit or not, which in turn benefits DV!
Again, DV, never asked me whether buying a new vaporizers is really how I would get the most benefit out of $250..... They asked me for my credit card number.
Man ... I'm glad I don't have your skepticism ...
I'm sure I can't convince you otherwise brewer, but if my only satisfaction I got out of my day to day work (which is for my CUSTOMERS, whether they are internal at my primary job or external at my consulting gig) was making money, I wouldn't have the energy or incentive to get up each day ... I might be able to struggle through it in order to make sure my family is fed and sheltered, but it might get the best of me and my depression and anxiety might take me down and sink me, making me useless to everyone ... I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that what I am going to spend half my life doing is just to make money with no benefit to anyone and will only make me feel crushing defeat at the pointlessness of what I do with the better part of my waking hours ...
I get passionate about what I do and enjoy what I do when I have HAPPY customers ... when every customer hates you all you want to do is hide ... you end up having to go to work to expose yourself for half of your waking hours at least to the worst hell you can imagine ...
So I guess it's all in self interest since I want my customers to feel good so I can feel good, otherwise I wouldn't have the energy to get up each day to sell them anything or deal with them anyways ...
Not every vendor is Walmart ...
I'm sure I can't convince you otherwise brewer, but if my only satisfaction I got out of my day to day work (which is for my CUSTOMERS, whether they are internal at my primary job or external at my consulting gig) was making money, I wouldn't have the energy or incentive to get up each day ... I might be able to struggle through it in order to make sure my family is fed and sheltered, but it might get the best of me and my depression and anxiety might take me down and sink me, making me useless to everyone ... I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that what I am going to spend half my life doing is just to make money with no benefit to anyone and will only make me feel crushing defeat at the pointlessness of what I do with the better part of my waking hours ...
I get passionate about what I do and enjoy what I do when I have HAPPY customers ... when every customer hates you all you want to do is hide ... you end up having to go to work to expose yourself for half of your waking hours at least to the worst hell you can imagine ...
So I guess it's all in self interest since I want my customers to feel good so I can feel good, otherwise I wouldn't have the energy to get up each day to sell them anything or deal with them anyways ...
Not every vendor is Walmart ...
grokit
well-worn member
I just had a dealing with a company, where I e-mailed them after the fact, explaining how I wasn't overly pleased with a product, didn't quite meet my needs, giving them the reasons, even indicating that I did not expect my money back as I had given it a pretty good try and due to circumstances, just didn't quite work for me (but nothing wrong with the product and after my use I knew it had no resale value)
They are insisting I take a full refund for it and all accessories (about $100) unless I find a use for the battery in which case they will issue me a partial refund (this is 100% to their loss as they get nothing back from the manufacturer)
This is an example of a seller putting my needs ahead of them making money even though they have a legally enforceable contract and have no obligation (or expectation whatsoever) to issue me a refund of any type at all (I was shocked it was actually offered and wasn't why I contacted them)
Is this 100% to my benefit with none for them? No ... definitely not ... they take a loss here but gain customer loyalty which will in the long run benefit them. So maybe I'm agreeing with you in some ways brewer ... we just approach things from a different perspective?
Almost the exact same thing happened to me with one of the portable vapes I tried recently, I couldn't get it to work for me and was not sure if it was me or defective but did not want to try another unit. I told them I was okay selling it or passing it on and although not obligated to they are taking it back for a refund. So although their product was not for me, I am a fan of the company for life and hope they continue to innovate. Waiting for the refund to go through before posting in the particular thread though.
lwien
Well-Known Member
There's sooooo much that I'd like to quote and respond to in your post but it would take wayyyy too long, so I'll respond this one because I think it summarizes the whole thing anyway.
I totally agree with your above statement. People do go into business to benefit themselves. But............that does not automatically mean that they can't provide benefit to the customer at the same time.
This has nothing to do with ethics or "sleeping better at night", but rather has everything to do with my companies long term survival and growth.
Brewer, you sound pretty angry verging on confrontational. Is that frustration due to not everyone seeing the "truth" as you see it?
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