Discontinued ThermoVape Evolution

darkrom

darkrom

Great Scott!
Jeppy said:
I can't wait to put the LV to use 'between' vape stations.
Click to expand...


Please review it when you do. I really am still waiting for someone to compare the 3.7v hits to the T1 hits. If the hit is similar but you get ~50 hits I'll order immediately haha. I still am not too clear on if I can use the 3.7v evolution with my T1, or if I'd need the 6v. I'd rather buy the whole LV evolution kit than just the 6v evolution, because that alleged 50 hits is what I'm really after, but I don't want 50 baby hits either.
 
darkrom,
darkrom

darkrom

Great Scott!
havealight101 said:
Im liking the smooth flow a lot. Jury is still out on the cart, though I won't jump to conclusions(mat) to soon. I guess there is a steep learning curve for new TV owners. Will keep at it.
Click to expand...

I found the pure flow filter impossible to use (more or less) with the T1 to get hits that were to my liking. I hear this is not the case with the revolution. If I get the evolution I'll try it again with that if it is compatible.
 
darkrom,
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
darkrom said:
Please review it when you do. I really am still waiting for someone to compare the 3.7v hits to the T1 hits. If the hit is similar but you get ~50 hits I'll order immediately haha. I still am not too clear on if I can use the 3.7v evolution with my T1, or if I'd need the 6v. I'd rather buy the whole LV evolution kit than just the 6v evolution, because that alleged 50 hits is what I'm really after, but I don't want 50 baby hits either.
Click to expand...

You know, I think I already answered all this stuff. I know it wasn't the answers you wanted (sorry, no magic available), but it was my honest opinion based on my training, understanding and (brief) experience with the units. Not many guys have both types to compare I'm thinking? But there are dozens of guys out there using the LV Evolution already, anybody think they're even close to fifty full hits per charge? I think we can agree, Revolution is about ten solid hits? No need for guys to actually have both to make useful observations, anybody think they're close to 20 hits, let alone two and a half times that?

The numbers just don't support 50 hit per charge claims unless the hits are way less than 30 seconds each or not at full power. I gave my math, feel free to review it.

And yes, you can use a LV Evolution in your T1 body. I'm sure 'we've been here before'? You need to remove the heat core and cap, thread the unit into the hole the heat core used to connect to and of course change the battery. There are photos of this happening elsewhere in the thread, that's how it works. The photos are real enough, I don't think Photoshop was involved. For sure mine fit that way when I tried it.

Does anyone who understands such things find any problems with my math? The 6 Volt battery has (.750 X 6) for 4.5 Watt hours, the LV battery has (1.6 X 3.7) for 5.9 Watt hours. With that 'extra' 1.4 Wh (a 1/3 increase, not 3 times) has to cover extra heating time per hit (you need 5 or maybe closer to 8 more seconds of preheat on average seem to me) which 'eats up' most of it. I'd expect a few hits difference at best, no way 40 more. It's just not going to triple that I can see.

The only way I can see to make it to 50 hits is to avoid the "but I don't want 50 baby hits either" restriction. I haven't actually counted hits, but I've had to recharge way short of 50 hits twice now. Closer to 10 probably than 20? Other guys should try as well, and no doubt will. Should someone make it (basically getting over three times the weight of herb vaped with the exact same battery) I'm buying him the lunch of his choice. After lunch we'll design the 85 MPG sports car that does sub 12 second quarters and then balance the economy without raising taxes after dinner.....

OF
 
darkrom

darkrom

Great Scott!
Sorry OF sometimes your responses are over my head I guess. I just don't know why Thermovape would make a 50 hit claim when in reality it is going to be less than half that by your math. Seems like the first unfounded claim they would be making and that is why I am concerned. I'd rather just buy more batteries and keep happily using my T1 if it is only going to be a subtle battery difference with no performance increase.
 
darkrom,
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
darkrom said:
Sorry OF sometimes your responses are over my head I guess. I just don't know why Thermovape would make a 50 hit claim when in reality it is going to be less than half that by your math. Seems like the first unfounded claim they would be making and that is why I am concerned. I'd rather just buy more batteries and keep happily using my T1 if it is only going to be a subtle battery difference with no performance increase.
Click to expand...

I agree, it makes no sense to me either, but lots in life doesn't. Still, I've worked and lived by these sorts of numbers for too long for me to doubt what I see. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong, of course, but don't hold out any hope and would feel bad if good folks invested their hard earned money expecting something close enough to a miracle for jazz as I see it.

All things being equal, I think Evolution is a better product for most guys. More compact and the lack of stirring is a big plus IMO but each guy has to decide if the $60 upgrade (plus battery costs if you change voltage at the same time) makes sense for him. IMO neither the T1 nor Evolution bowls are big enough to slam heavy (or even the more serious normal) users in one go, the real 'place' is for a few quick maintenance hits on the sly.

There are two differences in play, a smaller bowl (with lower power) and (potentially) a better battery. In t he first area it's about a push seems to me. A bowl roughly 2/3 the size, using 2/3 the power, giving 2/3 the number of hits. Nothing really radical here. 3 bowls in one is basically the same as two in the other. There's a specification for batteries called 'energy density' usually in Watts per pound or per cubic foot depending on the goal. This is what drives electric car technology and in a fun way gets them to using the same batteries we do. They are the best option in both areas for roughly the same reasons. In fact the Tesla electric car (serious big bucks sports car made in California in limited numbers) uses some few thousand such batteries in it's $50.000 battery packs. For a while TV couldn't get new batteries for this very reason, the electric car guys wanted 'em all or so I'm told. Nothing magic here, either. The energy densities are very close really for the two types in use, nothing like the three to five fold improvement being looked for.

But please save your money until some clever guy points out the error(s) in my logic? Good luck with that.

OF
 
OF,
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
darkrom said:
Please review it when you do. I really am still waiting for someone to compare the 3.7v hits to the T1 hits. If the hit is similar but you get ~50 hits I'll order immediately haha.
Click to expand...

OK, I still won't try to make the subjective judgment comparing 30 Watt hit in one to 20 Watt hits in the other (not to mention that the actual powers are probably in a 15 or 20% wide window), but I did actually try to measure numbers of hits:

I selected what I think are new batteries (we hammer them hard), the 17670 is basically new, the RCR123As are what I think are the least used of my sets. Both we're partially discharged then recharged on my WF188 (with appropriate settings, of course). I had to run both without tops so I could see inside so that will effect the times, but hopefully fairly evenly making the relative measure useful. I'd key it on then wait until I could see a clear reflection of the heating element then began a 20 second 'hit' before shutting off. I'd let it cool while doing the other so a minute later (more or less) I'd repeat the test. When the T1 shut down I added a 30 second 'rest' to make up for it and continued on. I got 13 'hits' on the T1, 27 on the 3.7 Volt. Considerably more, but far short of 50. If you attempt to correct for power levels with a 2/3 ratio you get to 13 to 18 hits, still IMO an advantage but fairly slight. It could easily disappear in the actual powers in my test (statistics of small groups and all...) or the T1 bowl with it's stirring and perhaps better shape being more efficient.

The number of 'hits' I measured is fairly close to the agreed lifespan of the T1 so I think the test conditions are at least reasonable.

I know from using it normally I'm not going to get a third session out of a battery with the 3.7 Volt unit I'm using right now. Each of those sessions was 'a bowl and a half' BTW, fairly loose. FWIW it's my impression that I had to hit it longer than T1 to get a 'full hit', but I didn't actually measure that....too subjective for my tastes, give me something I can count every time.....

Trying to understand why the numbers didn't work out I noticed the rating on the RCR123As seemed high, that is they were under performing. It was looking more like 500 mAh, not 750. The battery itself doesn't have a capacity marking (a clue.....). So, poking around a bit I find this listing:
http://www.all-battery.com/rcr123a30v750mahlifepo4rechargeablebattery.aspx

Which says on the matter:
  • Capacity:
    • Nominal: 450mAh​
    • Maximum:750 mAh​
Factor that in and everything lines up. We're getting more like 500 mAh from these guys the way we're using them. Looks for all the world like some marketing type is taking the optimistic 750 number and running with it as they say......go figure. So, I'll buy more hits but no way 50. And when you correct for hit size it's probably closer to zero than 50? Still a few extra hits per charge, perhaps even enough to complete an extra bowl? For guys with no other units, LV Evolutions probably make the most sense, but for those with existing Standard Voltage systems the faster heat ups and cost savings of not needing another type of battery (and a charger for it) would probably make a Standard Evolution the call?

OF
 
darkrom

darkrom

Great Scott!
OF said:
OK, I still won't try to make the subjective judgment comparing 30 Watt hit in one to 20 Watt hits in the other (not to mention that the actual powers are probably in a 15 or 20% wide window), but I did actually try to measure numbers of hits:

I selected what I think are new batteries (we hammer them hard), the 17670 is basically new, the RCR123As are what I think are the least used of my sets. Both we're partially discharged then recharged on my WF188 (with appropriate settings, of course). I had to run both without tops so I could see inside so that will effect the times, but hopefully fairly evenly making the relative measure useful. I'd key it on then wait until I could see a clear reflection of the heating element then began a 20 second 'hit' before shutting off. I'd let it cool while doing the other so a minute later (more or less) I'd repeat the test. When the T1 shut down I added a 30 second 'rest' to make up for it and continued on. I got 13 'hits' on the T1, 27 on the 3.7 Volt. Considerably more, but far short of 50. If you attempt to correct for power levels with a 2/3 ratio you get to 13 to 18 hits, still IMO an advantage but fairly slight. It could easily disappear in the actual powers in my test (statistics of small groups and all...) or the T1 bowl with it's stirring and perhaps better shape being more efficient.

The number of 'hits' I measured is fairly close to the agreed lifespan of the T1 so I think the test conditions are at least reasonable.

I know from using it normally I'm not going to get a third session out of a battery with the 3.7 Volt unit I'm using right now. Each of those sessions was 'a bowl and a half' BTW, fairly loose. FWIW it's my impression that I had to hit it longer than T1 to get a 'full hit', but I didn't actually measure that....to subjective for my tastes, give me something I can count every time.....

Trying to understand why the numbers didn't work out I noticed the rating on the RCR123As seemed high, that is they were under performing. It was looking more like 500 mAh, not 750. The battery itself doesn't have a capacity marking (a clue.....). So, poking around a bit I find this listing:
http://www.all-battery.com/rcr123a30v750mahlifepo4rechargeablebattery.aspx

Which says on the matter:
  • Capacity:
    • Nominal: 450mAh​
    • Maximum:750 mAh​
Factor that in and everything lines up. We're getting more like 500 mAh from these guys the way we're using them. Looks for all the world like some marketing type is taking the optimistic 750 number and running with it as they say......go figure. So, I'll buy more hits but no way 50. And when you correct for hit size it's probably closer to zero than 50? Still a few extra hits per charge, perhaps even enough to complete an extra bowl? For guys with no other units, LV Evolutions probably make the most sense, but for those with existing Standard Voltage systems the faster heat ups and cost savings of not needing another type of battery (and a charger for it) would probably make a Standard Evolution the call?

OF
Click to expand...

Some good info. I knew 50 hits was too good to be true :( If they magically got 50 t1 like hits from a single charge I'd order away. I can only hope for better battery technology I guess.
 
darkrom,
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
darkrom said:
I can only hope for better battery technology I guess.
Click to expand...

I think we're all looking forward to it. It's sure to get better, it's just a matter of when and how. Still, I think the current system is useful for most guys.

OF
 
OF,
jambandphan03

jambandphan03

in flavor country
any updates on a possible passthrough system?? that sure would change the game for home use... I'm at my computer a lot when I am medicating. Also looking at your numbers OF, I feel better about the performance I was getting from my lil'chuck. I got maybe 10-12 pulls and some warm up time, then noticed the battery draining to the point of needing a charge, so that may not be too far off from what I will get from the Evo 3.7v set up?? Good to know ahead of time so I don't have skewed expectations.
 
jambandphan03,
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OF

OF

Well-Known Member
jambandphan03 said:
any updates on a possible passthrough system?? that sure would change the game for home use... I'm at my computer a lot when I am medicating. Also looking at your numbers OF, I feel better about the performance I was getting from my lil'chuck. I got maybe 10-12 pulls and some warm up time, then noticed the battery draining to the point of needing a charge, so that may not be too far off from what I will get from the Evo 3.7v set up?? Good to know ahead of time so I don't have skewed expectations.
Click to expand...

I agree, realistic expectations are a key part to satisfaction in most cases. "Let's keep it real".

I'm sorry I don't know the unit you're using, but the LV unit from TV has no 'extra losses' so tends to run a bit hotter than the other power supplies I've tested and of course it's got a larger (capacity) battery most likely so I'd expect the TV unit to outshine it.....

OF
 
OF,
jambandphan03

jambandphan03

in flavor country
...another WOW moment, I just put a fresh charged battery in my chuck, put the smaller aquavape on top of my Evolution cap, and just got 3 really good pulls from the Evolution with visible vapor,then set it down to type this.. I am definitely looking forward to having the complete kit. Lil'chuck is rocking it, just not for very long.
 
jambandphan03,
Jeppy

Jeppy

Pure Vaporist
OF said:
But please save your money until some clever guy points out the error(s) in my logic? Good luck with that.

OF
Click to expand...
Sure as hell won't be Jeppy,,,,cuz 'OF' got Jeppy beat out by about a thousand points in the 'clever' category. :bowdown:
 
Jeppy,
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OF

OF

Well-Known Member
Jeppy said:
Sure as hell won't be Jeppy,,,,cuz 'OF' got Jeppy beat out by about a thousand points in the 'clever' category. :bowdown:
Click to expand...

Yeah, but you sure blow right past me when the 'good lookin' part comes doncha? I mean when all them mothers are hiding their kids eyes and all?

In a funny sort of way I found my own mistake, didn't I? I believed some salesman like a rookie........

Then again, I was younger then.

OF
 
OF,
havealight101

havealight101

Norski
darkrom said:
I found the pure flow filter impossible to use (more or less) with the T1 to get hits that were to my liking. I hear this is not the case with the revolution. If I get the evolution I'll try it again with that if it is compatible.
Click to expand...
Smooth flow and Pure flow are different. Smooth is the same as Pure, minus filter and air restriction IIRC.
 
havealight101,
vorrange

vorrange

Vapor.wise
One could always argue if we took quicker hits we would be a lot closer to 50. :lol:

Looks like the LV has its place, as well as the HV, with the no stirring and the smaller bowl which i prefer in stealthy vaporizers.. it just isn't as promising as everyone was hoping it would be, me included.
 
vorrange,
SF Giant

SF Giant

Reluctant vape collector
darkrom said:
Sorry OF sometimes your responses are over my head I guess. I just don't know why Thermovape would make a 50 hit claim when in reality it is going to be less than half that by your math. Seems like the first unfounded claim they would be making and that is why I am concerned. I'd rather just buy more batteries and keep happily using my T1 if it is only going to be a subtle battery difference with no performance increase.
Click to expand...
To sell more units? When the T1 first came out they were claiming a 20 minute run time so I'd take what they say about battery life with a grain of salt.
 
SF Giant,
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
havealight101 said:
Smooth flow and Pure flow are different. Smooth is the same as Pure, minus filter and air restriction IIRC.
Click to expand...

It also has a thick doughnut of porous ceramic to hold the water, a fair bit more water than the filter does. This is why it cools the much higher volume of warm air in T1 so much better. The air restriction comes with the filter, of course, I'm sure TV would lessen that if they could.

Each has it's application, IMO, they just look alike and do similar functions on similar machines. Filter on the concentrate vapes, Pure flow on the herb vapes seems like a good rule to me.

OF
 
OF,
havealight101

havealight101

Norski
OF said:
It also has a thick doughnut of porous ceramic to hold the water, a fair bit more water than the filter does. This is why it cools the much higher volume of warm air in T1 so much better. The air restriction comes with the filter, of course, I'm sure TV would lessen that if they could.

Each has it's application, IMO, they just look alike and do similar functions on similar machines. Filter on the concentrate vapes, Pure flow on the herb vapes seems like a good rule to me.

OF
Click to expand...

Is it "safe" to take a little off for depth purposes in other vapes?
 
havealight101,
darkrom

darkrom

Great Scott!
havealight101 said:
Smooth flow and Pure flow are different. Smooth is the same as Pure, minus filter and air restriction IIRC.
Click to expand...

Where can I find the smooth flow filter? I just looked and didn't see it on the site. I have pure flow and find the restriction to be too much to use with the T1 for my tastes so far.
 
darkrom,
havealight101

havealight101

Norski
darkrom said:
Where can I find the smooth flow filter? I just looked and didn't see it on the site. I have pure flow and find the restriction to be too much to use with the T1 for my tastes so far.
Click to expand...
It's on their site under "accessories" IIRC.
 
havealight101,
jambandphan03

jambandphan03

in flavor country
Here are a couple of pics... the lil'chuck is custom made, and I have my graphic art put on there. I actually have 2 different ones, one is being repaired at the moment. The lil'chuck is a copper tube mod w/ a 510 connection, runs on one imr16340 3.7v (protected) rechargeable battery I have 2 that say 550mah, one that says 750mah and one that says 880mah, don't know how accurate that really is, but those are the lables.

They don't see much use, and I was really hoping to make them work with the Evo, which they do, but only getting maybe one full session from a battery. I added an adapter to space the Evo from the body a bit to slow down how quickly the body heats up. Also a pic of the AquaVape, which looks funny, but is a nice way to see and cool your vapor. In home use only for that set up :smug:

dAxts.jpg


Jl5lX.jpg
 
darkrom

darkrom

Great Scott!
havealight101 said:
It's on their site under "accessories" IIRC.
Click to expand...

There its is. Must have no scrolled enough. I have the pureflow, maybe someone will want to trade me for a smooth flow haha. If not IDK about spending another $30 + shipping to try a new filter.
 
darkrom,
OF

OF

Well-Known Member
darkrom said:
There its is. Must have no scrolled enough. I have the pureflow, maybe someone will want to trade me for a smooth flow haha. If not IDK about spending another $30 + shipping to try a new filter.
Click to expand...

Yer call, of course, but understand it's NOT a filter. The big old hole goes straight through the mouthpiece like normal. It's just the walls are lined with a sleeve of water soaked ceramic, moisture is stripped out of it by the hot air, cooling the air in the process. I tend to look at non recurring hardware costs in a different light than expendables. We're talking about the price of a couple of grams of herb. I see it as adding to the enjoyment in good measure if it works well, and IMO this one does a great job with the T1 (if you remember to add a few more drops of water from time to time.....

I can't advise a guy how to spend his hard earned bucks, but I'm confident you'll like it better on T1 than the filter.... The results are, I think, better and you don't have to fight it to get a hit.

OF
 
OF,
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havealight101

havealight101

Norski
OF said:
Sorry, pal, I can't follow (and know I should be able to....), can you please try the question again, maybe in different terms?

TIA

OF
Click to expand...
Sry, ill elaborate. I noticed w/smooth flow, like other drip tips, the male insertion end(take'er easy), I think is a little long for Omi-carts and creates suction of the medicine down below(my PF filled up when on a problematic old cart). So, "take a little off", would be me and my grinder(Im a surgeon) having some fun.. Spark, spark! I kind of remember you or vitolo doing that to some drip tips...IIRC.
 
havealight101,
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