Speculation about how vapour clouds form
- Thread starter pakalolo
- Start date
I use my Crafty at 210c all the time. Is there any truth this statement about toxic vapor? Im in trouble if its true
Do you use it start to finish at full temp? How do you like it compared to starting at a lower temp? I really do enjoy the clouds at max temp!
It's not bullshit! EXPLAIN why s and b made it part conduction if it didnt make it easier to get clouds. Granted you can get clouds from all convection but definitely not as easy. We can at least agree on that right ?
mitchgo61
I go where the thrills are
I'm not agreeing. There's a dozen or more famous, beloved convection vapes that priduce huge clouds with no effort and no conduction. My VTE does it all day long.
It's obvious you've had issues with convection, but your attempts to extrapolate your experience to the rest of the global universe of vape users is, I'm sorry, completely specious. Some of us have had years of experience with vapes that contradicts your "convection doesn't make clouds easily" thesis.
Let's reframe this...is there a single FCer who uses convection vapes who agrees with you? Anyone else have a hard time extracting clouds via convection?
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max
Out to lunch
As has been said, this is wrong. Any good old whip vape (box vape, SSV, etc.) can produce huge hits as soon as you connect the glass wand/bowl to the heater cover.
Any enclosed metal heating chamber means you have some conduction. There's no way around it.
lwien
Well-Known Member
A lot of convection vapes do require more initial airflow to get the vapor going. Doesn't make it "hard" to get the vapor, but does require more initial airflow, so that's something to consider IMO.
Yeah, but with my LSV, the initial air flow occurs instantly. as soon as I begin to draw. I never thought of it as a consideration.
stickstones
Vapor concierge
I don't agree with that, and here's your explanation. Conduction will produce vapor quicker than convection simply because it is in direct contact with your herb. That's why the mflb gets almost instant hits. But you can't huff on a pure conduction unit and get massive clouds...you have to sip it and take hits that can last twenty+ seconds. So you experience quick, slow building vapor that can produce big clouds, but only with the right technique and long draws. The mflb and its clones are the only vapes I know of that can produce instant hits with conduction. The other conduction vapes take a little time to build the heat and then it takes time for the oven to cool down, making them less efficient that the screen style vapes like the mflb.
Convection vapes take slightly longer to produce clouds once up to temp simply because the heat is initially distributed throughout the load instead of producing vapor. Once the load is up to temp it can produce full blown clouds with very little effort, depending on the vape. Also, if the vape has enough heat retention (like the Evo) or responsiveness (like Herbie) then you can really huff on it and get quick, huge clouds.
I don't know of a truly pure convection vape. At some level the herb container is going to heat up and conduct its heat to the edges of the load. This can be drastically reduced, as with the MiniVap, but not 100% eliminated. Even the MV has a stainless steel screen that conducts some heat to the load once heated. So all convection vapes have some degree of conduction in them...some more than others.
As to S&B deciding to intentionally design both into their heating chamber, I can think of a couple of reasons. The cynical response is to believe that they said they wanted some conduction because it was unavoidable, so why not say it was intentional. But I don't think this is the answer. I think they did it to give the end user what he/she wants...instant vapor production and herbs that look spent. The conduction will get the vapor going while the load heats through convection, thus producing vapor more quickly and pleasing the user. It also will make the spent load darker, leading most to think the extraction was more complete. While I thought this was true for a long time, I no longer do and maybe that is a topic for another thread. But the reality is that I can get a light tan abv from Herbie at max temp and stick it in another vape and get nothing good from it.
I hope that helps...
grokit
well-worn member
I always thought that the conduction part of the crafty/mighty was mainly to preheat the load so you get good cloud production from the first hit, making them consistently easy for nubes to get good clouds. I am guessing that the first hit has the most conduction, then it's mostly convection after that.
I'm probably wrong, I haven't followed those threads in a while but that what I thought when I was.
kimura
Well-Known Member
good point that I hadn't thought of, I agree 100%.
the Herbie and MV actually made me change the way I look at ABV, but that is indeed another thread.
no, I think you're right, and what you are saying is in line with the info provided by S&B
seems there are a few good reasons to heat the bowl
mitchgo61
I go where the thrills are
A lot of convection vapes do require more initial airflow to get the vapor going. Doesn't make it "hard" to get the vapor, but does require more initial airflow, so that's something to consider IMO.
Sure, most convection vapes require the load to be "primed" with an initial hit that warms the material and allows it to give up the vapor, as sticks described above. That certainly doesn't require a lot of lung capacity or even technique. It just requires you understand that hit one doesn't deliver big vapor. If you can wait for hit number two, the golden yummies start to flow.
At a macro level though, there seems to be a lot of confusion about how convection and conduction differ, and how and why different devices handle these processes. Maybe newbies need a primer....but then they'd actually have to read and accept the wisdom therein.
stickstones
Vapor concierge
@mitchgo61 -- what's the VTE? I can't figure that one out!
mitchgo61
I go where the thrills are
Sorry man...Arizer V Tower Extreme. The plain whip version without the fan and bag...
EverythingsHazy
Well-Known Member
Using an E-nano with a GonG attachment, and no heat-soaking of the gong/load (application of the nano only during the draw), produces clouds far large and denser than those from an No2, while at the same time, using less than half the amount of herb. Conduction constantly causes the chemicals to evaporate from the herb, and even if you don't see them coming out of the machine, unless it is airtight, they are. If you are the kind of person who takes between 5-20+ minutes for a session, and don't finish each load within a couple minutes tops, you are missing out on some of the chemicals in the herb just sitting in the heated bowl between hits.
That's what I meant by harder. No need for everyone to get their panties in a bunch. The point Im making is based on my experience if I had the crafty and you had your convection vape of choice and we both pulled for 10 seconds i think it's safe to assume that the crafty will produce a bigger hit. Convection does take longer to get started then the crafty obviously. U can argue all you want but there IS a difference that is noticeable.A lot of convection vapes do require more initial airflow to get the vapor going. Doesn't make it "hard" to get the vapor, but does require more initial airflow, so that's something to consider IMO.
Your proving my point EXACTLY your comparing something that's 4 times the size of the crafty. I HAD SAID FOR THE SIZE YOU CAN NOT MAKE A COMPARABLE CONVECTION ONLY VAPE AND EXPECT IT TO PERFORM THE SAME AS THE CRAFTY. I'm sure you can get clouds with all convection but if the VAPE were the same size as the crafty I don't think it would be possible to achieve the same results in such a small portable device.
Good point. I always wondered if the darker abv meant full extraction or just more burnt. Like the pax has dark as shit abv but fucking sucks and doesn't get U high at all compared to the crafty. I had put in hand broken nugs and noticed I was getting a little less vapor and it came out more beige and light brown then when the bud was grinded it was more dark Hershey brown so I figured it was extracting it better especially because it made sense it being grinded exposes more surface area. Can someone explain why grinded bud would be more dark after a session then hand broken nugs?
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stickstones
Vapor concierge
Because less of it was touching the oven surface...assuming you were doing this with the Pax. There were also probably some gaps in the load between the mini nuggets you put in there.
mitchgo61
I go where the thrills are
A. Try the Firefly. Huge clouds, pure convection, even smaller than the Crafty.
B. That isn't what you said. You said "all convection", not "only devices Crafty-sized". In case you don't wanna scroll up, here's what you wrote:
"Granted you can get clouds from all convection but definitely not as easy. We can at least agree on that right ?"
I didn't see anywhere where you said "desktop convention works well, but not portable". If I missed that, my apologies. All I see are blanket "convection doesn't easily produce clouds" comments.
C. Please stop yelling. I can understand your points without the screaming caps.
One ridiculously-experienced vapist after another is telling you they don't agree with your assessment of how convection works. You refuse to listen to any of us. That's fine, and that's your perogative, but our attempts to dispel myth and misninformation really don't equate to "getting our panties in a bunch".
lwien
Well-Known Member
There IS a reason for everyone to get their panties in a bunch and the reason is that your first three quotes above are simply............not true. Being the you included the 'Cano in your quotes above, you were obviously not taking just about portables but all vaporizers in general and again, the statements that you made are false and false statements like these deserve to be challenged, so the way I see it, there IS a need to got our "panties in a bunch".
I'm not sure what firefly you were vaping but it does NOT produce the same clouds the crafty can. Granted it taste better but they are not equal in vapor density. And I said portable when I first said all convection isn't as easy to get big clouds. i DIDNT literally say you CANT EVER get clouds with convection which is how you people are making it seems. You people will do anything to defend convection when all I was saying was for the size you can't get the same density in all convection unless your working almost twice as hard or taking a long time to get the load preheated. So I take back my comment. All I was trying to say is for any beginner who just wants to pull for less then 10 seconds will not achieve the same vapor density if the crafty was all convection. DONT even think about comparing the firefly to the crafty. Any retard can pixkup the crafty and get instant clouds. The firefly takes ALOT of technique. My friend coildnt even understand how to get a whispy cloud let alone a big one. But no matter what don't tell me the firefly will produce the same vapor density as a crafty unless your vaping it for twice as long. Show me a video of a firefly cloud equivalent to a crafty!
So your saying when it's hand broken there is space in the packed chamber which allows the bud to not get as dark?
lwien
Well-Known Member
No you didn't. Why do you keep posting up false statements?
Read your quotes that I posted above and show me where you said...........portables. You even used the Volcano as a comparison to prove your point.
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Your right I wasn't clear. But in general what I'm saying is true. EVEN the volcano takes longer to get a cloud then the crafty does. Once you do they are nice but there is just somehong about that slight amount of conduction that makes it a little stronger and more potent
herbivore21
Well-Known Member
Greetings my friend! Whilst you are right that the boiling point of Benzene is well within our vaping temperatures, Benzene is not something that is present inside your lovely 'erb that simply get's released when heating it like cannabinoids.
It is a byproduct, created by pyrolysis and combustion of plant material. Just like pyrolysis ( requiring much higher temps than anyone even dabs!) will change limonene to isoprene, an odorless gas.
Still, you are right to point out that the pyrolysis and combustion temps of plant material will vary depending on a bunch of factors - where the temp is measured, what the atmospheric pressure at the location is, the grind of the material, the tightness of packing and many other factors. You are also right in your characterization of boiling points
Also yes, these charts are not at all useful for the purpose they were intended!
Greetings my friend! Whilst you are right that the boiling point of Benzene is well within our vaping temperatures, Benzene is not something that is present inside your lovely 'erb that simply get's released when heating it like cannabinoids.
It is a byproduct, created by pyrolysis and combustion of plant material. Just like pyrolysis ( requiring much higher temps than anyone even dabs!) will change limonene to isoprene, an odorless gas.
Still, you are right to point out that the pyrolysis and combustion temps of plant material will vary depending on a bunch of factors - where the temp is measured, what the atmospheric pressure at the location is, the grind of the material, the tightness of packing and many other factors. You are also right in your characterization of boiling points
Also yes, these charts are not at all useful for the purpose they were intended!
The shame of it is that I knew this. The first time I encountered Geiringer's finding I checked to see if it was possible, since I was sure benzene wasn't already present. I got the explanation you just gave. Unfortunately, I didn't remember that when I was typing out my post. Instead, an inspiration flashed into my head that if everything boiled then benzene would have to be among the first to go. I'm pretty sure I got that from my buddy Jack Herer.
HellsWindStaff
Dharma Initiate
I get some pretty nice clouds from my FF and UD, specially if its my first run on the UD and its hot and up to temp. My Lotus just came in today, so I'll see if I can get clouds with that too. FUCK CONDUCTION!
Though, I used to swim competitively when I was a kid, maybe that's the trick?
herbivore21
Well-Known Member
Lolz, good old Jack!
The shame of it is that I knew this. The first time I encountered Geiringer's finding I checked to see if it was possible, since I was sure benzene wasn't already present. I got the explanation you just gave. Unfortunately, I didn't remember that when I was typing out my post. Instead, an inspiration flashed into my head that if everything boiled then benzene would have to be among the first to go. I'm pretty sure I got that from my buddy Jack Herer.
nicelytoasted
Vaked Chemist
Greetings my friend! Whilst you are right that the boiling point of Benzene is well within our vaping temperatures, Benzene is not something that is present inside your lovely 'erb that simply get's released when heating it like cannabinoids.
It is a byproduct, created by pyrolysis and combustion of plant material. Just like pyrolysis ( requiring much higher temps than anyone even dabs!) will change limonene to isoprene, an odorless gas.
Still, you are right to point out that the pyrolysis and combustion temps of plant material will vary depending on a bunch of factors - where the temp is measured, what the atmospheric pressure at the location is, the grind of the material, the tightness of packing and many other factors. You are also right in your characterization of boiling points
Also yes, these charts are not at all useful for the purpose they were intended!
Without getting too far off topic, I would just like to add that the formation and release of these “nasty”, byproduct compounds, when vaping, are related mostly to the temperatures involved, and the volatility of the compounds being released.
For example, as we approach and exceed ~ 200C, the lightest, most volatile compounds (likely benzene, and then the phenols and xylenes) would be formed and released into the gaseous phase of our vapour. Next, as the temperature increases, things like naphthalene (and other, relatively heavier, semi-volatiles) would be formed and released into the aerosol phase of our vapour. Lastly, as we increase the temperatures to those near and of combustion, the heaviest, non-volatile compounds like the PAHs are formed and released onto the particulate aspects of our vapour.
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