Discontinued herbalAire

[PoisonousHydra]

@cybrguy

That makes perfect sense, and I appreciate your quick reply.

I certainly have blown into the back of the unit, many times, and I have been well aware of that being the source of the restriction for a while. It's not so much that I was trying all of these other things in a vain attempt to get more airflow through the unit, but moreso for other reasons: I find the silicone tubing to be much too restrictive in and of itself, and also nearly impossible to clean without degrading the silicone. I posted all of those "measures" I have taken mainly for people who don't get it, and would just assume that the tiny silicone whip must be the source of all of my Earthly woes. I figured I would pre-emptively save myself from a hundred posts informing me that I just haven't experimented with the unit enough .

@PPN

I too have seen this. While Herbalaire claim that a fully obstructed airpath is necessary, I have never seen this in practice. In fact, I find a vapor session with even a tenth of a gram to be much more enjoyable when it is finely ground and sprinkled into the crucible, not kept whole and jammed in there. Incidentally, every so often I will see promotional material or a video from Herbalaire, and I will ditch the grinder for a while. The most recent occurence of this was two or three weeks ago. In the end, I never go more than a week before crawling back to my trusty old grinder. To sum up, to me at least, larger holes still seem like a better idea.

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations PoisonousHydra,

...for some of you pro Herbalaire modders on here.

No need to be a "pro" just to personalize an HerbalAire from outside.

I have narrowed it down to the problem being with the "tiny jet holes" that the manufacturer is so proud of.

Good luck dissasembling the heat-exchanger assembly, i couldn't figure out what a proper method could have been but you may succeed where i failed. Please include photographs!

Bags sure help to maximize the airflow i any case...

 

[MG23]

Just about the fully obstructed airpath, I disagree I can put some loosely pieces of flower (not packed) in my crucible without any efficiency difference...the HA is so powerfull, it's not an issue

I too have seen this. While Herbalaire claim that a fully obstructed airpath is necessary, I have never seen this in practice. In fact, I find a vapor session with even a tenth of a gram to be much more enjoyable when it is finely ground and sprinkled into the crucible, not kept whole and jammed in there. Incidentally, every so often I will see promotional material or a video from Herbalaire, and I will ditch the grinder for a while. The most recent occurence of this was two or three weeks ago. In the end, I never go more than a week before crawling back to my trusty old grinder. To sum up, to me at least, larger holes still seem like a better idea.

Vaporization is not only about a stream of hot air; there are many other less obvious variables at play.
Not noticing a difference in the end result does not mean there is no difference throughout.
When you choose not to secure the load you lose most of the benefit of the internal pressure changes.
Perhaps that's why your sessions with the HA are longer than with other vapes.

I'll also state again that "cloudier" hits are not instantly more potent.
They are a result of more particulate in the airpath caused by grinding, stirring, and/or higher temps.
Vapor condenses against the particulate and creates the visibility that you are referring to as "milk".
The mass amount of particulate is the same reason combustion smoke appears so much "thicker" than vapor.

Yes, you get "thicker clouds" when you grind with the HerbalAire.
In reality you are just introducing more particulate (and harshness) into the airstream.
It does not benefit the vaporization process outside of more visual confirmation for cloud chasers.

Grinding is mandatory with most other vapes because they were designed under the presumption that vaporization is only about passing heat over the material and little else.
Rudimentary designs spawned by rudimentary understanding.

 

[PoisonousHydra]

@MG23

I am sorry, but you put so many words into my mouth with that post, that I am not even sure where to begin...

I never said anything about "thicker clouds", nor "milkiness" yet you say that I am "referring" to it as such. In fact, the only word I used to describe the difference was that it was more "enjoyable". Please use the quote feature.

I also never said anything about my sessions with the HerbalAire being longer than with other vapes. I am seriously confused, not trying to start a war. I don't know what you're talking about, but in the future, please refrain from quoting me on things I never said.

Many thanks,
PoisonousHydra.

 

[MG23]

Sorry for the confusion, I was responding to two people at once, not just you. (notice two different quotes)
Please read PPN's entire post (the other one I was responding to) to clear up the parts that weren't aimed at you.

 

[PoisonousHydra]

Just about the fully obstructed airpath, I disagree I can put some loosely pieces of flower (not packed) in my crucible without any efficiency difference...the HA is so powerfull, it's not an issue, with TonG I must to pack it (gravity issue cause I use it most part of time upright)

I got my elite TonG some days ago, the taste difference is subtle but I like it (especially to the end of the bowl!) too cause I loaded too much my crucibles and with TonG it's not possible to overload!

The TonG fit perfectly all my water tools but I prefer now to use it with my Cloud dry mp (with the stock mp it don't fit without a reducer and was still not stable) since I prefer the HA dry (and I have others cloudier devices to milk my glasses) for long and tasty sessions!

@MG23

I read it, and replied to it, which is where my entire message originated from. Again, I see no mention of milkiness, cloudiness, more particulate, or sessions lasting any longer than others.

 

[MG23]

@MG23
I read it, and replied to it, which is where my entire message originated from. Again, I see no mention of milkiness, cloudiness, more particulate, or sessions lasting any longer than others.

since I prefer the HA dry (and I have others cloudier devices to milk my glasses) for long and tasty sessions!

^^^^^

And no one was mentioning particulate except me.
I was explaining it is the most likely reason he considers his other devices "cloudier".

I also responded to his implying HA sessions are longer than his other vapes (which he has also stated concretely in previous posts) by inferring that there is a link between his lack of securing the load and the extra time needed for optimal extraction.

 

[PoisonousHydra]

90% of the vapourizers on the market claim that there is no need to grind the product (in fact, most insist you do not).
Should have been:
90% of the vapourizer owners I know claim that there is no need to grind the product (in fact, most insist you do not).

I know all about smoke, vapour, how it is formed, how more visible vapour generally only translates into more waste product, and so on and so forth.

At the end of the day:
If I put a bowl (unground) through my HerbalAire, and then grind it up again, and put it through, I get a wicked good buzz.
If I put a bowl (ground) through my Herbalaire, and then grind up again, and put it through, I get nothing.
I have tried the same experiments with edibles, not to mention that the centers of nuggets coming out of the HerbalAire are tobacco coloured at best.

This is not a manufacturer's biased opinion of their own product, and it has nothing to do with all of the scientific mumbo jumbo in the world. I am well aware of the existence of pressure, airflow, restiction, and the dynamics of fluids and vapours, their heating points, flash points, and all sorts of fun stuff.

What it comes down to is personal experience, grinding up the bud put into the HerbalAire produces more desirable effects, in my opinion.

Your five senses are more reliable than any manufacturer's self-evaluation of their product.

 

[MG23]

90% of the vapourizers on the market claim that there is no need to grind the product (in fact, most insist you do not).

As far as I know only two vaporizers on the market claim that optimal extraction can be achieved without grinding.
(HerbalAire and Vapolution)
Please show proof of the rest of the "90%".

I too have seen this. While Herbalaire claim that a fully obstructed airpath is necessary, I have never seen this in practice.

If I put a bowl (unground) through my HerbalAire, and then grind it up again, and put it through, I get a wicked good buzz.

I must also infer that these two statements are linked; i.e. lack of technique leading to sub-optimal extraction.

Your five senses are more reliable than any manufacturer's self-evaluation of their product.

I completely agree that your 5 senses and your sense of understanding are a better judge of a vape than manufacturer bias and marketing; that is why my opinion on the HerbalAire is formed on years of first hand experience versus competing products.

 

[cybrguy]

@cybrguy

That makes perfect sense, and I appreciate your quick reply.

I certainly have blown into the back of the unit, many times, and I have been well aware of that being the source of the restriction for a while. It's not so much that I was trying all of these other things in a vain attempt to get more airflow through the unit, but moreso for other reasons: I find the silicone tubing to be much too restrictive in and of itself, and also nearly impossible to clean without degrading the silicone. I posted all of those "measures" I have taken mainly for people who don't get it, and would just assume that the tiny silicone whip must be the source of all of my Earthly woes. I figured I would pre-emptively save myself from a hundred posts informing me that I just haven't experimented with the unit enough .

@PPN

I too have seen this. While Herbalaire claim that a fully obstructed airpath is necessary, I have never seen this in practice. In fact, I find a vapor session with even a tenth of a gram to be much more enjoyable when it is finely ground and sprinkled into the crucible, not kept whole and jammed in there. Incidentally, every so often I will see promotional material or a video from Herbalaire, and I will ditch the grinder for a while. The most recent occurence of this was two or three weeks ago. In the end, I never go more than a week before crawling back to my trusty old grinder. To sum up, to me at least, larger holes still seem like a better idea.

Hey, I need to repeat that I am not an expert vaper, I am a noob. I am also a little OCD and I research the shit out of things before I buy them. After combusting for many decades, when I made the decision to convert to vaping I went all in and I have only smoked one or two times since. I chose the HA over other good options because I thought it would give be a well rounded vaping experience and help me find my preferred method. I didn't think I would NEED to smoke out of the house so I figured a plugin was not a problem. And I loved the thinking behind it.
While I am a noob with vaping I do have some understanding of physics and thermodynamics, and I think the HerbalAire design is brilliant, though not for everyone. I find the restricted air flow "disturbing" at times as well. Cramming the goods into the crucible or the mp reduces the airflow even more. And for people with COPD, for example, it might be unacceptable or even impossible to take the full advantage of. And while I don't think you will succeed in making much difference in the air resistance, I will be interested if you find a way to do that non-destructively and likely try it out. But I suspect it wouldn't work as well. I'm sure HerbalAire would tell you that this is the one knock they get most often. Yet they haven't changed it, much, in nearly 10 years.

The truth is, there is no "requirement" that we use things as they are designed. While my Maglight flashlight isn't designed for it and wouldn't be happy about it, I'm quite sure in a pinch I could hammer a nail with it. Or a better non-destructive example might be drinking out of a jelly jar or scratching your back with a ruler. These may not be the most efficient methods of getting these things done, but they work just fine. I think HerbalAire was looking for the MOST efficient way to accomplish a specific task, and I think they did a great job. That doesn't mean that is the only way their device will work.

 

[RUDE BOY]

90% of the vapourizers on the market claim that there is no need to grind the product (in fact, most insist you do not).

Not true at all. Most instructions that came with the 30+ vapes I own tell you to grind your buds for best performance.

As MG23 stated the only ones that recommend whole nugs as the preferred loading method are the HA and the Vapolution although I have found many others work fine for me with out grinding, sessions are longer and produce a little less visible vapor. I find the taste much better and end results the same.

 

[PoisonousHydra]

90% of the vapourizers on the market claim that there is no need to grind the product (in fact, most insist you do not).

Should have been:
90% of the vapourizer owners I know claim that there is no need to grind the product (in fact, most insist you do not).

Sorry: that started out as "90% of vapourizers on the market say that they are the most efficient because of their proprietary airflow system".

@MG23

I must also infer that these two statements are linked; i.e. lack of technique leading to sub-optimal extraction.

This is exactly the problem here: you automatically assume user error, when my first statement was saying that in the past year I have tried fully packed nuggets, in these experiments, and there is no discernable difference.

I invite you to find another way to invalidate my opinion because you are just blatantly clinging to company propaganda and citing user error as the obvious cause, rather than providing useful case examples of your own.

 

[cybrguy]

At the end of the day:
If I put a bowl (unground) through my HerbalAire, and then grind it up again, and put it through, I get a wicked good buzz.
If I put a bowl (ground) through my Herbalaire, and then grind up again, and put it through, I get nothing.
I have tried the same experiments with edibl

OK, this is NOT my experience. There is NOTHING left in the ABV from my unground sessions. Nothing. I have been a little concerned that I was getting too close to combustion due to the taste (at the end) and dark color of the ABV. So, I will not say you are doing something wrong, but I will suggest that I am doing something better...

 

[MG23]

Should have been:
90% of the vapourizer owners I know claim that there is no need to grind the product (in fact, most insist you do not).

I think it is important to make a distinction between 'working' and 'working optimally'.
I agree that you can get vapor without grinding from pretty much any vape, but with many vape designs the drop in extraction efficiency of using entire pieces versus grinding and stirring can make a night and day difference.
Also, many of the people that claim not to grind or stir with other vapes still flip and/or crush the piece(s) midway through.
Luckily, the HA extracts very thoroughly regardless of technique, even when they're short of optimal.

 

[McNerdius]

not to mention that the centers of nuggets coming out of the HerbalAire are tobacco coloured at best.
[....]
Your five senses are more reliable than any manufacturer's self-evaluation of their product.

In my experience, my unground nuggets come out uniformly dark, very dark. The vast majority of hits from unground nugs, re-run after grinding are few (1-3) and foul tasting. That's not propoganda or opinion, that's fact based on experience.

As for packed vs not, in my experience there is a discernable difference. Hits are milder, it takes longer. The extraction is still equal and dark.

 

[PoisonousHydra]

@McNerdius

How long do you run the HerbalAire for? I ripped my sticker off day one, and have never had the knob set anywhere but as high as it will go. Do you find you need multiple half hour cycles in order to fully brown a load? If so, then I understand that this is my problem: lack of patience. Ultimately, I am not willing to be tied down to this thing for more than thirty minutes in a sitting, and I find that after a single cycle there may be around five minutes of vapour left on a second cycle. In spite of this, after trying things every which way, multiple cycles never seemed to make sense to me from a flavour and harshness perspective.

I will concede that I usually ran both my Solo and WISPR for closer to 45 minutes, but I found that the quality of vapour was still worth indulging in after a half hour with those units.

Post-Script: The unit always seemed a little on the "weak" side to me, and I've often wondered if I have a faulty model or something. I have always been meaning to ask someone if it is supposed to make an audible "buzz" when the heater is running (but then I got high )? I have always read that the unit is perfectly silent when in operation, aside from the pump, but mine is definitely not. I would describe it as similar to the buzzing that a plasma television makes on an all-white screen, or the sound coming from an amplifier left on with the gain cranked up. For the record, I am the sort of person who is overly sensitive to these things. The clinical term for it is "hypervigilance".

It is one of those things that worried me at first, and then I just sort of forgot about it until now.

 

[MG23]

I invite you to find another way to invalidate my opinion because you are just blatantly clinging to company propaganda and citing user error as the obvious cause, rather than providing useful case examples of your own.

I have always gotten quicker extraction with secured loads vs. loose ones when using equal amounts, both ground and unground.

None of what I have stated is hearsay from the manufacturer; as I've already said they are observations and opinions based purely on my own personal experience over years of using the HerbalAire versus many other models, many of which cost a lot more money and claimed to be "the best" at one time or another. Beside that, HerbalAire has very little marketing "propaganda" or hype when compared to other companies, especially on forums like this one. (notice the thread length for this 10 year old vape vs. new models)

 

[PoisonousHydra]

I have always gotten quicker extraction with secured loads vs. loose ones when using equal amounts, both ground and unground.

That is perfectly fair, and more in line of what I was hoping to hear. Sorry to get all prickly on you: I just didn't like the inference that it must be "poor technique" when I think I already summed up that I've tried about a thousand different techniques with this unit. I started my tenure in this thread by stating that, and made it pretty obvious that I had no interest in being told how to use my HerbalAire.

I posted all of those "measures" I have taken mainly for people who don't get it, and would just assume that the tiny silicone whip must be the source of all of my Earthly woes. I figured I would pre-emptively save myself from a hundred posts informing me that I just haven't experimented with the unit enough .

I know your comments were initially directed toward @cybrguy, and @PPN, but somewhere along the way they went astray and headed in my direction.

Now you people have me seriously thinking that I've been using a unit with a wonky heater for over a year o_O.

 

[MG23]

If you are referring to the stock whip it is food-grade PVC; not silicone, and not ISO safe.
I believe you mentioned switching to aftermarket whip with a wider diameter that goes over the MP rather than in it, though.
If that is the case I'm not sure airflow can be improved much for you without major surgery involving major functionality losses.
Hypothetically if your surgery went as intended you would have something like a more durable Extreme-Q without the internal fan.

Also I didn't mean to imply that leaving the load loose or even grinding were shows of "poor technique"; sub-optimal technique would be much more accurate regarding my sentiment on those methods.

 

[cybrguy]

Because I usually do small loads (to me, maybe not lwien) of between .1g and .2g from nugs, it may not easily cover the whole screen. I usually throw in some shake or other loose herb, tamp it down and cover it with another screen. At the least I hold the crucible up to light to see if I can see light through it.

I must admit I have only filled a full crucible (as opposed to a "mini") a couple times, and that may contribute to never having any undepleted goods...

 

[PoisonousHydra]

@MG23

Yes, PVC is what I mean, but until a few months ago I thought it was silicone, and I had been soaking it in alcohol to clean it once in a while (since I stupidly forgot that it was PVC). Hence, my comment about it being difficult to extract from, now that I know what it is actually made of is not alcohol safe. My original whip is very creaky, and has a hard, brittle quality to it, like it would crack under too much flex. Let this serve as a warning for any of you dumbasses who think you can "try it anyway" .

Also, that is a near perfect description of what I want:

[...] something like a more durable Extreme-Q without the internal fan.

 

[MG23]

Then to be fair you probably made the right choice going with a 7th Floor product; they are damn near exactly that.

That said; if you find you prefer the DBV I would recommend selling your HA rather than ruining it with a drill.

 

[RUDE BOY]

You can do small pieces with complete extraction pretty quickly in my experience.

But I pretty much always do at least 20-30 minute sessions with the whip and it seems that no matter how dense the buds are or how much I pack in the crucible the avb is all evenly baked and the same shade of dark brown, even the stems. Can't extract any more vapor out with any other vaporizer I own.

The HA always gets amazingly full extraction as long as you actually finish vaporizing your bud and don't rush things.

Right now I am HerbalaireLess as I passed it on to someone who needed a reliable solid vape.
So I gave them the one vaporizer I owned that pretty much leaves you wanting for nothing as long as your homebound and don't need to go portable you'll never really need another vape.

 

[PoisonousHydra]

Can anyone comment on the "buzzing" (noise, not sensation ) I mentioned a few posts back?

Maybe some pictures will be worth a thousand words here, but I would say the stuff I am finished vapourizing is mostly dark brown, but not completely chocolate brown and "blasted into dust" which is how a lot of people seem to describe the stuff coming out of their HerbalAires.

My fiancée agrees with me that nothing has ever looked as dark as the stuff which came out of my WISPR . I would say that this finished material is more the colour of that which came out of the ioLite, or the Solo: mostly dark brown, but with bits that are almost the colour of tobacco (nasty stuff).

Typical usage: 0.3 grams at maximum temperature for one cycle. As mentioned, I have also tried full crucibles, tamping it down with screens, ground, unground bud, and all seem to turn out around the same colour.

Post-Scipt: Added "a few thousand words".


@MG23 = proof that I have tried packing whole buds :




Same whole buds, crushed:

 

[MG23]

This one looks about right for 400 completion. The rest look off to varying degrees.
Your other full piece pictures look like they were hit two to five times at 400 and then emptied, tbh.
I have never seen even a hint of green in my finished ABV at any temp above 325.