Adhesives, Insulation and Vape Safety

[HighlyEducatedScholar]

at this point, im dumbfounded as how this thread is still open.

 

[zmurder]

Some folks are just drawn to negativity, personal attacks, and confrontations like flies are drawn to shit This is just human nature.

This from the guy that just said this....

In my perception this thread isn't really about materials but about a mod not being given a free vape from an independent artisan vape maker.

Seriously, do you have any evidence of that? Seems like quite the charge. I just looked over mom's pictures again, and I'm pretty sure the hot silicon and flaking alumina fiber was what this thread is "really about".
I also don't get the idea that the Underdog is somehow being "singled out". This is a forum.....feel free to start threads "singling out" whatever vape you want.....I'm sure users on here would love to further discuss the materials of a lot of vapes. The fact that this thread about the Underdog is so long perhaps indicates there was something worth talking about here?

 

[zymos]

All you have to do is go back and read the thread.....I'm not going to go back and quote it all for you again.

You don't need to quote a thing-
It's a simple question: what concerns have not been addressed to the best of Dave's ability?

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

I didn't walk into anything. I've repeated myself so many times now, EXPLICITLY STATING that everyone has their own level of risk tolerance, and that mine is not "better" than someone else's, it is just MINE.

Again, you're not getting it. Your concerns have been answered. Others haven't. SO why don't you leave. You're not adding anything to the discussion, other than continually derailing it, with a MOOT point. Go look it up, please.

And FFS, Dave posted the MSDS that he got with the material. That is the info people wanted, and that is all he has. ( except maybe the smoking gun you keep hinting about but are too considerate to mention) Yet that is still not good enough, people have doubts. As I and several others have said, if that information does not assuage your fears, then the only option is to not use the UD.

Its not the MSDS for the material he's using, so its his obligation to hunt down the correct one. I can't tell you how many false leads, dead-end roads, I ran into trying to get MSDS for over 100 products, some of them several years old and not made anymore. I still did it. They're out there, unless the company is operating illegally (which then brings up MORE questions)

There is never going to be a solution that satisfies you, so why are YOU here, other than to drag down the level of discourse?

Another assumption on your part. The solution that will satisfy me, is full disclosure of legally obligated information. If you have a problem with that, I suggest you contact OSHA.

And what smoking gun are you speaking of? The one 10 pages back, that was again... specifically addressing OSHA and MSDS? You catching on to the trend yet?

Once again, zymos. You don't have the answers. I am NOT going to honor your request to drop it, leave the thread or otherwise. I will however, continue to point out the errors in your judgement and logic concerning OSHA controlled substances.

Anyone else notice a common theme in this thread? All the guys that don't have anything to add, pop in, say they don't see what the big deal is, claim that it seems like some people just want to cause drama and then don't offer any input into the questions asked? Anyone else notice a deliberate and coordinated effort, by the same 2-3 users, with the same 4 or 5 "Liking" their posts. Funny, what the majority of them have in common.

Hey... I'm just saying.

 

[Rick]

I agree we all need to lighten up.
It would be easier if those of us who think the UD is OK or good or whatever were not defined as not caring about our health. That is bullshit. We all care about such things. That is why we are here.

The folks with a particular opinion are not the only ones who care about safety. We all do.
On another point, motg never expected or wanted a free UD. She wanted to contribute to the Abysmal thing and try a UD, that's it. No conspiracy. Then the story continues as she described in her first post.

As for what is happening on this thread.................we are getting more information along with all the other stuff. Hang in there Vicki.

 

[zymos]

So who is beating the dead horse here?
Me, who says you have the only information you are likely to get, so make your decision based on the available information,
or BDV harping on the same thing over and over until he sees a paranoid conspiracy of UD owners?

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

So who is beating the dead horse here?
Me, who says you have the only information you are likely to get, so make your decision based on the available information,

Again... the legal obligation isn't on me. If Dave can't come up with the proper information, then he's going to have to deal with whatever consequences come with it. Just like I had to deal with the consequences of my actions 3 weeks ago, which ended up costing me a couple thousand dollars and months of labor.

If Dave wants to continue to take the chance that OSHA won't come knocking on his door some day, when someone takes issue with the lack of compliance, then so be it. Won't be me, I'm not that vindictive to do something like that, even to a bunch of people that have been telling me to "fuck off", my opinion doesn't matter, deflecting, derailing, dismissing, accusing me of throwing a tempter tantrum, etc. Dude... What goes around comes around and Karma's a real bitch, when she catches up to you.

or you harping on the same thing over and over until it turns in to a paranoid conspiracy?

I believe you're the only one that has brought up a crazy conspiracy, oh wait.... this is another one of those common themes. Silly me, I didn't catch it earlier.

 

[zymos]

Your words, chum
"Anyone else notice a deliberate and coordinated effort, by the same 2-3 users, with the same 4 or 5 "Liking" their posts. Funny, what the majority of them have in common."

Your concern for how Dave might fare in a contention with OSHA is very touching though...

 

[stickstones]

The third double standard, and mentioning it will probably get me banned or issued infractions, but I think it really needs to be brought up......In my perception this thread isn't really about materials but about a mod not being given a free vape from an independent artisan vape maker. FC is the primary market driver for many vape makers. A vape maker could have their business destroyed by an FC mod with some sort of grudge. Not cool in my book.

I find this criticism disturbing and insulting. You perception is WAY off.

You give fc much more credit for power than it has. One reason Arizer never shows up here is they don't need to. They are doing fine in the vape world without any of our help whatsoever.

 

[stickstones]

bdv, watyler and zymos...take your discussion somewhere else. We need to keep it a much higher level of maturity than you three have displayed this morning. Any more posts here from you three that continue to go at it in this way will get even more warnings...I've already thrown out two this morning.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

I think side A and side B are separated by philosophical differences that can't be changed. We will continue to go around in circles with this discussion because of that. We all medicate for different reasons. I don't need to be concerned about chemical sensitivity, because I medicate for pain and psychological reasons. There are people out there who are chemical sensitive. They have different requirements.

I think WatTylers statment:

It a very simple philosophy; how risk averse you are. Each to their own.

If you're really risk averse then don't vape at all. Lungs aren't designed as a drug delivery system, and it's probable that there's some risk involved with asking them to clean up lots of vape gunk each day over a prolonged period, instead of processing clean, pollution free air. There are lots of people out there who don't want to vape for this very reason, and instead pursue edibles. Each to their own, again.

The facts are out so there's no need to prolong the drama with opinions. If customers want change they'll vote with their dollars and I'm sure it will be delivered.

and Rick's Statement right after that are both spot on:

I have to agree with SS on this one and will now add my two cents.

First, I want to ask, as I did over the brass issue, how does any questionable smell or chemical or fiber or particle get delivered to the device user? How can that happen with a 'closed' vapor airflow? We are supposed to be talking materials here, not philosophy. How does the bad material connect with the vape user? or does it?

Why the singling out of log vapes? I thought all vapes listed at FC produce vapor? Why not the same scrutiny for all vaporizers?

I am seeing some ganging up on a single manufacturer over possible questionable materials used in his product. Ironically, a competing manufacturer is chiming in regularly now and displaying his product purity in the process. Not one person has explained how the assumed bad stuff gets to the user.
Sounds like the same fear crap I went through. No one ever answered that question for me when I was the bad guy.(how does the bad stuff get to the user)
How does the bad stuff get to the user?

It appears to me Dave is trying to make a better product as we all do when folks talk about reservations over our products. What else do we want from Dave?

Yup, brings back memories. Funny thing is, the guy who stirred the shit in my case is gone and told us all we were fucked when he left FC with no more communication to any past customer or anybody. Interesting final chapter on that drama that went on for a long time.

The questions have been brought up and answered the way they were answered. The manufacturer is trying to improve his product as we all do. Some folks do not want his product and some do want it.
OK, cool.
How does any bad material get delivered to the user? I want facts BTW, not theories about imaginations that defy the laws of physics and air flow.

Having said that, I agree if there are no questionable materials anywhere in a product, there can be no questions about the safety of those materials in that product. DUH. Tell that to medical equipment manufacturers. They stick us and poke us and do this and that and do it using no hazardous materials in their products? Bullshit. They DO protect us from those hazardous materials by the construction of the devices.
You all seem to be missing the final step. Connect the dots. How does anything bad get to the user?
One more thing here. We are not making breathing devices. We are making cannabis delivery devices. We are producing hot air rather than a flame. Is the air going through the load clean or not?

I'll make some comments on our product on my thread later today sometime.

Another thing that pisses me off while I am in the mood. Folks that say they will not post anymore, then they totally ignore their own word and shit on someone......again.

Personally, I think it is up to the user to police their own products. I have to police myself every time I go to a restaurant. I can't eat mushrooms, I have to make sure to check with every dish I eat at a restaurant if there is any mushrooms in it at all... regardless of if it in the ingredients on the menu.

If chemical sensitivity is an issue why would you even consider buying a log vape in the first place? If I had extreme chemical sensitivity, I would eliminate anything except devices with an all glass vapor path.

 

[stickstones]

at this point, im dumbfounded as how this thread is still open.

Actually, this is a GREAT thread, that is going to take a fuckload of modding to keep on track and civil. If you go back and look at post times, all of this lunacy over the last three pages took place between when I ate breakfast this morning and when I ate lunch today. Things can move fast around here. I go to work for four hours (long day for me, I know!) and all this happens.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

Actually, this is a GREAT thread, that is going to take a fuckload of modding to keep on track and civil. If you go back and look at post times, all of this lunacy over the last three pages took place between when I ate breakfast this morning and when I ate lunch today. Things can move fast around here. I go to work for four hours (long day for me, I know!) and all this happens.

I was going to say... if we can keep it about the topics if is a useful discussion. I also want to say thanks for taking the time to moderate this thread. I know it can take a little more effort then some of the others. Maybe though, the pay off will be worth it in the end.

 

[stickstones]

ok...now I am live and up to speed...a couple of things...

This is a materials discussion, but how can we have that discussion without considering their uses and applications? That is why I brought up design elements for the log vapes. I knew full well that things could get a little heated, but so be it. Sometimes you gotta sort through the bullshit to get to the other rewarding side.

Regarding MSDS sheets, Dave has given us his answer. It will be good enough for some and not enough for others. That's fine. What's not fine is turning it into a dead horse, beaten to a bloody pulp. If you are not satisfied with his answer, tough shit...move on and don't buy his vape.

Several of you have mentioned that the logs are getting differential treatment and I have a response to that. there was a time when I could say that I had read every post on this forum, but that was over two years ago. There's just no way to keep up with the industry that fast on this forum...that's why we have more mods! But I can say that every vape thread I have been in, especially when it is newly introduced, gets the materials treatment. Go check out the Solo, DaVinci, Pax, MFLB (yes, the batteries got the treatment quite effectively over there), Cloud, Extreme and Zap threads.

What is different about this situation is that it involves the log vapes that, for some reason, have proliferated due to this forum. Rick was the only log maker I know of on this forum who had his own thing going before showing up here. Every other one has either benefitted from this forum or, several times, been a member who decides to take it out on his own and make them himself (Woodeez, Dogs, HI, Pods and now JRR across the pond). Now, FC is not involved in this in any official way, and the rules and moderation on this forum are fluid much like the vape industry itself. But what it does mean is that we have a style of vape that is being imitated, improved, etc. And we have more choices in the log vape category (and very similar to each other as well) than any other, so they are going to be naturally compared.

Please respect the fragile nature of this thread. We have never allowed a topic like this before because of the ensuing shit storms that arise. But it can be something of great service to this community due to the now proliferation of log style vapes. I have volunteered to be the one to keep it on track, so please help me out here. I have already had to issue out five warnings (and probably should have been higher) including one to a mod and we have one member banned due to posts in this thread. So fair warning...mature posts only here!

I greatly appreciate all the vape makers showing up here...it makes the thread rich! Let's not discourage their participation by flaming them and fans of their products.

 

[Frederick McGuire]

What I still don't entirely understand is why log vapes are being singled out.

I referred to the LSV before, I'm gonna do so again.
Here is a (edited) post I made in the LSV thread not too long ago:

...
...I got my LSV up to temp, then I carefully opened the base so I could get an idea of how hot it gets at the inside of that base piece.
I was happy to find it really only gets warm to the touch on that insulating rubber cement stuff they use to hold the cord in place.
...
...

Here are some pics:
...


...
(My hot glue is the yellowish looking bit)
And a quick pic of the insides


...
...

Not counting the Hot Glue (the yellowish stuff) I added myself, there's that grey, rubber cement stuff.
No-one batted an eyelid at it, or even mentioned it as a safety concern.
As far as I can tell, either
a - It is an issue, and went under the radar for whatever reason
b - It is not an issue, since it is completely out of the air/vapor/inhalation path.
c - It is not an issue, since it is a known, safe substance

I doubt it is (c),
if it is (b), then why is it different for log vapes?
if it is (a), should we be asking 7th floor for a list of every single component inside the LSV there?

I honestly cannot see why this material is considered different to the materials used in the UD/any log vape (if it is).

I personally am satisfied that the UD is safe for my usage requirements right now (as a primarily recreational user, with no major medical concerns - I understand that medical issues will change a person's acceptable parameters), just as I am satisfied that the LSV is safe for my usage requirements.

Basically, what I'm wondering is, are logs being more targeted in this thread simply because the thread was started about a UD?
Or is there something about the Closed UD airpath that is inherently less safe than the Closed LSV airpath?
Or am I missing something?

I quite like how Rick summed up his rather long post with
"How does the bad stuff get to the user?"
As far as I am concerned, if it cannot get to the user, it is not of great concern.
I believe it was that BDV didn't like the mention of people's philosophies on this, but I have to ask, what's else is the differing factor between those of us that arent satisfied and those that are?
I feel that if it isn't getting into the airpath, that it doesn't pose a significant enough risk to warrant too much attention (Again, I can see how a more medical user would have a more stringent set of risk assessment criteria than myself, but isn't that the essence of our philosophies on the matter?)

Perhaps, instead of telling us it's unsafe, help explain why it's unsafe.
I look at Dave's explanation of how the UD works, and it seems good to me, if it truly is not a safe design, I would like to understand why.
Not simply that it is unsafe, but what the risk is...
Is the insulation bad purely and simply because it's insulation, and that's bad, or could it realistically affect a user with a regularly functioning unit?
Or is it a matter of if a unit fails for some reason, it will then become unsafe, and that's unacceptable?

From my point of view, I feel like I'm hearing a lot of

No, not M'Kay...
Why is it bad?

t-dub, I certainly hope it wasn't something I said that that you thought was trivializing your needs, I see Aussie and get worried - I swear, most of us are cool

Whomever mentioned trends in who "likes" whose posts (dear god, I'm sure I butchered the grammar in that sentence)- I personally wouldn't read anything more into it than if you agree with something, you'll like it.
If you agree with a person's views in this thread, you're probably gonna keep agreeing with their views - leading to the same relative bunch of people liking sets of posts...

Given how this thread went over the last few hours,
*Internet Tone Disclaimer*
Not trying to be a smartass at all, Not trying to bait anyone, not trying to do anything but express my honest opinion

 

[t-dub]

t-dub, I certainly hope it wasn't something I said that that you thought was trivializing your needs, I see Aussie and get worried - I swear, most of us are cool

Yes you are and so is hazy. I want to apologize publicly for singling out his/her post, he/she actually seems like a very nice person and I was responding to several things that bothered me and used that as an example and I am afraid that was very, very, rude of me. I'm sorry.

Whomever mentioned trends in who "likes" whose posts (dear god, I'm sure I butchered the grammar in that sentence)- I personally wouldn't read anything more into it than if you agree with something, you'll like it.
If you agree with a person's views in this thread, you're probably gonna keep agreeing with their views - leading to the same relative bunch of people liking sets of posts...

I tend to like posts that make me laugh as well

One question: Would it be possible to make a log vape, but with materials like a ThermoVape, so that you could ISO and boil it the same way?

 

[stickstones]

Fred...i have considered renaming the thread given the path it has taken. Sounds to me like people just didn't respond to your LSV posts. it had nothing to do with FC management.

 

[Frederick McGuire]

Yeah, I'm not trying to say it was management.
Just raising (IMO) valid points

EDIT:
I'm gonna edit this in here, sonce this was a small post, and this doesn't need to be a new post, but it took me a little bit to figure out what "OSHA" was that BDV was mentioning...
It's called "OH&S" here

 

[Hippie Dickie]

One question: Would it be possible to make a log vape, but with materials like a ThermoVape, so that you could ISO and boil it the same way?

well, my question is: what is a log vape these days? except for lwien, everybody with a log vape uses a variable voltage power supply to try to achieve a custom temperature. So, if a "log vape" is one made of wood -- then, no, it can't be ISO/boiled to clean.

Buy why do you want to ISO/boil the vape? i never have to do that with my vape glassware - ever.

Perhaps a log vape is an inexensive vape? A computer controlled heater only costs $20 for parts.

 

[t-dub]

ok, I'm not going into again how careful I must be with biological contamination. If I had a log vape option that used inert materials and was totally cleanable, I would consider this type of device. But I can see that log vape attitudes differ from medical attitudes, kind of like, recreational usage differs from medical usage of our medicine, at least in my opinion right now

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Regarding MSDS sheets, Dave has given us his answer. It will be good enough for some and not enough for others. That's fine. What's not fine is turning it into a dead horse, beaten to a bloody pulp. If you are not satisfied with his answer, tough shit...move on and don't buy his vape.

Sorry, no disrespect, but ignoring/dropping possible legal/health violations, isn't your call.

EDIT: So I won't be accused again of rewriting history. Everyone needs to understand the impossible, pretty much. I still don't get a lot of crap about OSHA. Generic MSDS? I haven't ever been given that option. In fact, I find it fascinating that it exists and felt it was my responsibility to report, MY ERROR. I have deleted an above comment that may or may not be of concern. However, it was an uncalled for comment, because it was a petty remark and wasn't fair at all. I apologize to those that read it.

OSHA FAQ

What are the requirements and limits to using generic MSDSs?

... [Regarding] the suitability of a generic material safety data sheet (MSDS). As you are probably aware, the requirements for MSDSs are found in paragraph (g) of 29 CFR 1910.1200. MSDSs must be developed for hazardous chemicals used in the workplace, and must list the hazardous chemicals that are found in a product in quantities of 1% or greater, or 0.1% or greater if the chemical is a carcinogen. The MSDS does not have to list the amount that the hazardous chemical occurs in the product.

Therefore, a single MSDS can be developed for the various combinations of ... [chemicals], as long as the hazards of the various... mixtures are the same. This "generic" MSDS must meet all of the minimum requirements found in 29 CFR 1910.1200(g), including the name, address and telephone number of the responsible party preparing or distributing the MSDS who can provide additional information.

GENERIC MSDS

EDIT: This comes off as real rude. It was not my intent. I take this stuff so seriously, because for more than half my 45 years, I had OSHA up my ass. I've had to dig up 15 year old MSDS, from companies that had been out of business for 10. And my constant excuse of, "I can't find it" didn't fly. My boss gave me two options. Find it, or replace it. OSHA gave me the same answer. They don't dick around. They don't say, "OK, well... some of you, don't care. Forget about it."

They're the ones, that don't care. They don't care what your reasons are and they bring HUGE fines along with them.

 

[stickstones]

bdv...good links...thanks for bringing your msds expertice to the thread.

Please keep in mind that this is just a forum. We have no control over if/when someone posts something here. We can't make Dave come in here and jump through hoops. He has given us his answer. It is either good enough or it isn't, per the individual. Your legal concerns are outside of the scope and influence of this forum. Maybe you, like some social workers, have a legal obligation to report msds offenders...I don't know. But as it relates to this thread, we don't need to keep bringing up the msds issue over and over again without some new response from Dave.

 

[Alan]

I had explained the construction of the HI in words, but it is sometimes easier if you can see a photo. Here is one of my failures. The wood is purple heart. The core is not shown so that the resistor position is visible. The power socket pretty much fills the entire center hole. About as compact as I can make it.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Oh God no. I don't want to talk to those pricks. They'd trace my damn call and show up at my house to.

Dave doesn't really need to respond. And people are going to have to accept the MSDS he provided, myself included. They are quite clear on it. Its acceptable use.

Had I been smarter, I would have done the homework first. But, seeing the discussion turn that direction again, just sets off fire alarms. I still get paranoid about them and I don't even have to deal with them, on any capacity.

 

[stickstones]

I had explained the construction of the HI in words, but it is sometimes easier if you can see a photo. Here is one of my failures. The wood is purple heart. The core is not shown so that the resistor position is visible. The power socket pretty much fills the entire center hole. About as compact as I can make it.

Thanks, Alan...great pic that clarifies a lot! So the only thing missing from this pic is the SS cup that is the core (that in my unit is two pieces), yes? With regard to the heated airpath, it looks like the only thing in that is the SS core and the resistor, but what about the power socket...is it in the heated airpath? I assume there is some sort of solder in the power socket...anything else?