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Adhesives, Insulation and Vape Safety

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by momofthegoons, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. J.R.R.Tokin'

    J.R.R.Tokin' Wych Doctor Manufacturer

    Messages:
    872
    Location:
    South Coast UK
    HERE'S a bit of info on copper that will help of which the opening is:

    "Copper is a naturally occurring metallic element that occurs in soil at an average concentration of
    about 50 parts per million (ppm). It is present in all animals and plants and is an essential
    nutrient for humans and animals in small amounts."

    I have been searching like crazy for negatives related to copper but have yet to find anything negative. The amount of copper that is actually exposed is very small. I will keep looking but personally am using one with the copper and have had no issues - but tbh I was fine with the old brass zaps.
     
    Maria Peterson likes this.
  2. SVuser

    SVuser Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    100
    Gold instead of copper - feasible?
     
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  3. Alan

    Alan Master JedHI Manufacturer

    Messages:
    878
    The wires leading to the resistor are made of copper that is covered with tin. Both are elements.

    Tin might be a better material since bare copper tarnishes. Possibly tin coated copper. Will you fill the center of the glass beads with tin solder to seal around the wires?
    Are you needing to seal air leakage from the bottom?
    If the bottom is not getting hot and there is nothing in the bottom than needs to be sealed off, it just seems like extra time and materials.
    Maybe it will make installation easier for you. Just push the cap onto the bottom of the tube to install and pull it back off to change / clean out the heating element. It would provide good support for the resistor.
     
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  4. zymos

    zymos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    320
    Copper is an element. It is definitely safe as cookware, couldn't say if there is any reason why it would become unsafe if it were in a vaporizer...
     
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  5. SD_haze

    SD_haze MMJ Vaporist

    Messages:
    3,210
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    I just had copper water plumbing pipes installed in my house only last year.

    So I guess I'm drinking it and showering in copper water :buzz:
     
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  6. J.R.R.Tokin'

    J.R.R.Tokin' Wych Doctor Manufacturer

    Messages:
    872
    Location:
    South Coast UK
    I am plugging the glass beads at the bottom with solder to plug them closed. I'm not using anything else on the bottom as the glass beads fit snug.
    Personally I don't think it's a necessity but was trying to offer an option for those that may have issues with the exposed wood in the bottom of the unit. Like Rick and yourself I consider it dead space with no air flow but some others might not feel that way, so this is really an option if desired.
    It doesn't particularly make it an easier install, but it would definitely make any future maintenance or core retrofitting easier.
     
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  7. darkrom

    darkrom Great Scott!

    Messages:
    3,352
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Just saying this whole thread is for the "purists" clearly. If some of the other stuff we mentioned in the beginning is a health concern, then surely those same people would more than likely prefer to pay the extra minimal cost for stainless steel over copper.

    There is always going to be something better, but IMO switching from copper to stainless is a good idea. There is no negative aspect to stainless. Copper is debatable. If I was manufacturing a vape I'd simply opt to take the debatable material out and avoid a huge explosion of people being upset, similar to this thread. It's such a small piece I think the cost would be more than justified.
     
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  8. Vicki

    Vicki The Bionic Woman

    Messages:
    5,682
    I agree, I would do the same thing, and it makes sense.
     
  9. zymos

    zymos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    320
    Why is the use of copper debatable? Is it possible to be inhaling copper ions at the temperatures it would be used at in a vape?

    Believe it or not, some people are allergic to stainless steel. I mention that not cause it has that much relevance to vaporizers, but to point out that the argument over material safety can go on infinitely...
     
    hazy likes this.
  10. darkrom

    darkrom Great Scott!

    Messages:
    3,352
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    It is as possible to inhale the copper as the glue on the bottom of the Underdog, which in the end a lot of people decided that by having it there at all it was a risk. I don't take this stance, but by the same logic there shouldn't be copper when there could be the safer stainless steel.
     
  11. SVuser

    SVuser Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    100
  12. darkrom

    darkrom Great Scott!

    Messages:
    3,352
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    To be clear I have no evidence copper is bad, but similar to the lack of evidence of anyone inhaling anything that is closed off in the underdog, do it better just because. Dave has adapted to making things the way people want. I'm sure he took a big publicity hit from this nonsense. Isn't it only right to ask/expect other vape manufacturers to do the same, or is this a gang up on Dave/Underdog kinda thing?

    mod note: this is a materials dicussion thread kind of thing, and this direction will not be tolerated as stated numerous times before. warning given.
     
  13. vorrange

    vorrange Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,234
    Darkrom, no one mentioned Dave or UDs, in fact, you were the only one who brought it up again.

    Zymos only questioned why copper should be debatable, not that it shouldn't be.
     
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  14. momofthegoons

    momofthegoons vapor accessory addict Staff Member

    Messages:
    6,187
    darkrom, I cannot believe that after all this time and all the things that have happened in this thread, that you are trying to dredge up this nonsense again. I think it is clear that we have moved way past the materials used in just the UD and on to the other log vape manufacturers as well. The fact that J.R.R. would post his thoughts here is evidence of that. If Dave and I can move on, it would seem to me that you can too. :2c:
     
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  15. Frederick McGuire

    Frederick McGuire Aggressively Loungey

    Messages:
    2,694
    Location:
    The Land of Oz
    I disagree with the logic there Darkrom.
    TBH, IMO this thread hasn't really done anything for my understanding of the safety of materials in vapes, but I don't like the idea of let's just rule out substances for the sake of ruling them out.

    If there are no health implications for using copper, it should be ok to use it.

    If someone is uncomfortable with a material for whatever reason, I don't see that as justification for making it an "unwritten FC rule" for log vapes to exclude that material.

    What if I(or anyone else) said I don't like the idea of stainless steel?
    Just because...
    Should we then ditch that for Material X?

    I disagree with the general trend of the thread, (but, as I've said before, I understand there can be medical factors which change a persons outlook on there matters - I'm lucky enough to not have to worry about that :)) which seems to be

    "I don't like Material X"
    "Why?"
    "Just Because - now get rid of it"
    "ok :\"

    If there's a reason copper shouldn't be in there, I'm fine with that, but otherwise, IMO, we should let the vape makers use what they wish to make their vapes.

    :2c::peace:
     
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  16. zymos

    zymos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    320
    Could it be because copper is associated with brass and bronze, whose safety is debatable ?
     
  17. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

    Messages:
    1,987
    Location:
    where the Cube rules!
    it's the lead not the copper
     
  18. zymos

    zymos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    320
    Those are both copper alloys, hence the "association" with copper...
     
  19. Alan

    Alan Master JedHI Manufacturer

    Messages:
    878
    What I was trying to say earlier is that every manufacturers log vape already has copper in the air stream. The exposed resistor wires are made of copper. They are just covered with tin solder. They are ROHS because there is no lead in the tin solder.
     
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  20. Rick

    Rick Zapman

    Messages:
    1,216
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    My opinion of course.
    Copper is fine as you are using it J.R.R. We used a copper liner in our heatport hole for 10 years. Copper is safe. I currently use small copper tubing, crimped in the vapor airpath, to connect our heater wires to the Zap plug. Often stainless will not work when copper will. I could not use SS tubing for the heaterwire hookup because of cost, availability and unabilty to solder SS as I do solder at the plug end of the connection.

    As for closing the hole between the two chambers, I agree with Alan that is not necessary if the bottom chamber is sealed(closed to incoming air).

    If we as business people try to please everybody with every concern, we will go broke. We have to do our best to make a safe product and live with that. If we need to change, fine, but that change better come from a consensus of opinion, not one or two people wondering about whatever. It does seem you have gone to much effort to find out about the safety of copper, J.R.R. Good for you and good job on your new log vape.
     
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  21. LeTchen

    LeTchen A toute vapeur ! Retailer

    Messages:
    562
    Location:
    France
    I hope that the Underdog (Rook Classic) I bought few weeks ago to "Le Musée du Fumeur" in Paris is not a old one who have these problems inside :rolleyes: ........ possible I will take it apart to see inside (if I do, I will post the pictures)..... the last thing I want is the vaporize unsafe !
     
  22. sunsett70

    sunsett70 Active Member

    Messages:
    367
    whoever said that the 'old' ones are unsafe? it was merely a design choice by the creator, who explained fully his reasoning.
     
  23. LeTchen

    LeTchen A toute vapeur ! Retailer

    Messages:
    562
    Location:
    France
    I see the pictures on page 1 and I hope it's not the same inside mine.... that's all !
     
  24. sunsett70

    sunsett70 Active Member

    Messages:
    367
    hope you can take it apart then, and inspect it. maybe give us an update and some pics....
     
  25. LeTchen

    LeTchen A toute vapeur ! Retailer

    Messages:
    562
    Location:
    France
    Just open my UD, it seems to be ok for me...
    But I have some questions :
    - what is the red paste ? silicone paste ? Dave, I really like to know the technical data sheet of this silicone that should be ok for food contact (like here)
    - I found just behind the lip these cords and cloths (left in the picture).... what is it ?.... or better: why ?
    - I think it was better to insulate the wires because if they touch together the washer or screws, it happens a short circuit, right ?
    [​IMG]
     
    zmurder likes this.

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