Adhesives, Insulation and Vape Safety

[zymos]

Are you not concerned about the battery in the MFLB?

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Well, I hope you can find comfort in some choice, Vicki. All the info, has been overwhelming. I always hated OSHA and Hazmat. Its like a bad dream, that never ends. When employers find out you have any experience with it, you always get tasked with the job, regardless if its in your job description or not.

However, this thread has been fascinating also. I was unaware of how many device makers we have/had. Granted I haven't investigated a whole lot of vapes in the forum, because I'm not shopping (already made up my mind). But, I'm interested in a couple more. I've always dug that little Bud Toaster HD, is holding up in his avatar... but until he posted here, I hadn't bothered to follow up on it. Plus, its a bloody entertaining thread. Now, I'm going to have to give those plans a try some day. Awesome watching the evolution of ideas to.

 

[Vicki]

Are you not concerned about the battery in the MFLB?

No, why would I? I make sure my batteries are in perfect shape, or I wouldn't use them. Honestly, though, I rarely even use the batteries anymore. I mostly use the PA and car charger. I save the batteries for other situations.

Well, I hope you can find comfort in some choice, Vicki. All the info, has been overwhelming. I always hated OSHA and Hazmat. Its like a bad dream, that never ends. When employers find out you have any experience with it, you always get tasked with the job, regardless if its in your job description or not.

However, this thread has been fascinating also. I was unaware of how many device makers we have/had. Granted I haven't investigated a whole lot of vapes in the forum, because I'm not shopping (already made up my mind). But, I'm interested in a couple more. I've always dug that little Bud Toaster HD, is holding up in his avatar... but until he posted here, I hadn't bothered to follow up on it. Plus, its a bloody entertaining thread. Now, I'm going to have to give those plans a try some day. Awesome watching the evolution of ideas to.

It has been fascinating to me as well! It has really opened my eyes, and honestly, scared me a lot! I am really looking forward to reading more, and I hope all vendors are open and forthcoming.

 

[t-dub]

I REALLY want anyone to tell me why their electronic vapes are safer than the underdog. Please someone.

I can sterilize any of my TV products quickly with ISO or a boil. I have already spoken about biological concerns with wood. Even the Cloud which has electronics, I trust way more than any wood device with my health. Wood is a biological sponge trap, imo, but everyone's journey will be their own.

 

[Vicki]

I can sterilize any of my TV products. I have already spoken about biological concerns with wood. Even the Cloud which has electronics, I trust way more than any wood device with my health. Wood is a biological sponge trap, imo.

I respectfully disagree, t-dub.

I have researched this many times, and am just putting up this post as ONE reference. Of course this is about wodden cutting boards, but wood is wood.

http://www.naturalhealthmag.com/expert-advice/whats-more-sanitary-cutting-board-plastic-or-wood

What's the more sanitary cutting board: plastic or wood?

Research shows that nonporous surfaces, such as plastic and tempered glass, are easier to clean than wood. But there is little scientific evidence that says a wood cutting board poses greater health risks because it's more porous.

Here is another reference:

http://www.planitdiy.com/how-to-faq...ps/won’t-a-wood-countertop-be-unsanitary.html

Won’t a wood countertop be unsanitary?

Actually, wood is one of the more sanitary types of countertops. It has properties that resist bacteria build-up.

 

[zymos]

No, why would I? I make sure my batteries are in perfect shape, or I wouldn't use them. Honestly, though, I rarely even use the batteries anymore. I mostly use the PA and car charger. I save the batteries for other

Your batteries are not in perfect shape if you are using them in the MFLB, because the wrapper that the manufacturer applied has been peeled off. I'm not saying you SHOULD worry, just pointing out yet another health concern that might be important to someone.

What t dub is getting at is that it is very hard to sterilize wood compared to metal, glass, plastic or other non porous materials. It is a simple fact, beyond whatever type of cutting board you prefer. Wood may INHIBIT bacteria from growing, that doesn't mean live bacteria cannot live on or in it though.

 

[Vicki]

Your batteries are not in perfect shape if you are using them in the MFLB, because the wrapper that the manufacturer applied has been peeled off. I'm not saying you SHOULD worry, just pointing out yet another health concern that might be important to someone.

Yes, they ARE in perfect shape because they are not damaged in ANY WAY. Peeling off the paper does not make the battery more dangerous.

 

[Alan]

How about particles, flakes, fibers, etc? If they did exist in the lower chamber how would we get them to the top chamber and then inhaled, through the load, by the human?

The space between the outer core and wood does not make a perfect seal. Tiny fibers can pass between the wood and metal to get up to the air intake location when the unit is turned up side down. This is especially true if the core is loose or rattling. The tiny fibers can also come down through the resistor hole when held upside down. Most flakes or particles that will get into the bottom are from whatever you are roasting. The larger particles will get caught on the underside of the debris screen and eventually start blocking air flow. These particles can be cleaned out if the resistor / lower cavity can be removed / opened.

 

[HighlyEducatedScholar]

i think im missing something here, and sorry this is off-topic so if i get a warning i can understand but...

1) Dave supplied as much information as he could about his design and materials as he could.
2) If some people do not feel that the Underdog vape is 'safe', then avoid buying/using it. Those who feel that it is 'safe', go ahead and use one and enjoy yourself.

the community now has the information that it needs so that you can make YOUR OWN decision.

now for it to be a little more off topic in an example...
i may feel that apples may be unhealthy for you and you shouldn't eat them. however, if you have done your own research about apples and you still think all the components are ok by your standards, why should my opinion force you to stop consuming something you enjoy?

gosh this whole thread seems like

and like a few other members have said, lets cool down, pack a bowl, stem, or trench and relax. and if you already have, vape again cause the atmosphere in here is still a bit too tense for me.

 

[t-dub]

Vicki, respectfully, that article is sophomoric in its depth. Talk to my next door neighbor, he will be taking anti-fungals for over a year after he gets off the yellow, cheeze wiz IV he has to take at home every day. Cutting boards and inhalation dangers are quite different my dear.

 

[WatTyler]

re. the alumina fibre insulation MSDS.
It seems that under UK legislation requiring SDS a supplier is permitted to keep their supply chains and sources of their products confidential and off of the MSDS, perhaps in order to protect their business and stop their customers bypassing them. Instead if that information is left off the MSDS, then it must be made available to the enforcing authority. This could be the case here? It seems logical to me.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/reach/resources/reachsds.pdf

I don't believe UK and EU requirements for such safety are much, if any, less stringent than those of the USA, and so I expect that the MSDS is likely to be valid. I suspect only reason it doesn't specify the particular brand (or manufacturer registration number, as is the UK requirement) is down to the different detail of the legislation between the UK and USA. Open mind, no conspiracy.

 

[jackmormon]

This thread makes me a saaaaad panda!

The negativity and bickering are the exact opposite of what I have always thought was so great about FC which is civility and respect for each other.

I am seeing double standards galore. If the negativity and bickering existed in ANY other thread, the mods would have taken action. This is just my perception, but since this thread was started by a mod, no action to clean out the garbage is being taken.

Another double standard is singling out log vapes made by independent artisans as needing debate and discussion about materials used. Where is this same discussion about the Extreme Q where the airpath travels over an exposed circuit board? Why hasn't Arizer been called out on ever material used on every component on the exposed-to-the-airpath circuit board? Wait, they would never answer or participate in that type of discussion. What about all the flame powered vapes where butane and potential butane combustion impurities being inhaled? What about using heat guns when Steinel has stated the air from their guns is not meant to be inhaled?

The third double standard, and mentioning it will probably get me banned or issued infractions, but I think it really needs to be brought up......In my perception this thread isn't really about materials but about a mod not being given a free vape from an independent artisan vape maker. FC is the primary market driver for many vape makers. A vape maker could have their business destroyed by an FC mod with some sort of grudge. Not cool in my book.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

i think im missing something here, and sorry this is off-topic so if i get a warning i can understand but...

1) Dave supplied as much information as he could about his design and materials as he could.

As a manufacturer it is his responsibility, by OSHA standards to have on file the MSDS for every controlled substance he uses, for manufacturing a product he is selling to the public, if he's operating on the up and up. This is not up for debate, nor a grey area. He's also obligated to supply it, when asked for it.

If he doesn't have it, then its his responsibility to get it.

2) If some people do not feel that the Underdog vape is 'safe', then avoid buying/using it. Those who feel that it is 'safe', go ahead and use one and enjoy yourself.

That's fine and dandy, if you don't care. However, this thread wasn't created because people don't care. It was created for the specific purpose of finding out the exact materials being used in the build process of a vape. It has expanded to include several different vapes, by Dave's request.

the community now has the information that it needs so that you can make YOUR OWN decision.

No, the community has the information, you feel comfortable with. The community is still speaking on it, because there's still questions.

 

[Vicki]

Vicki, respectfully, that article is sophomoric in its depth. Talk to my next door neighbor, he will be taking anti-fungals for over a year after he gets off the yellow, cheeze wiz IV he has to take at home every day. Cutting boards and inhalation dangers are quite different my dear.

I did a Google search and many topics say wood has natural properties that resist bacteria. I'm confused....

 

[zymos]

Because a piece of wood never rotted before?

You are making your choices on your own acceptable risk, t dub is doing the same.

 

[Vicki]

Because a piece of wood never rotted before?

You are making your choices on your own acceptable risk, t dub is doing the same.

I am asking question here, nothing more.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Another double standard is singling out log vapes made by independent artisans as needing debate and discussion about materials used. Where is this same discussion about the Extreme Q where the airpath travels over an exposed circuit board? Why hasn't Arizer been called out on ever material used on every component on the exposed-to-the-airpath circuit board? Wait, they would never answer or participate in that type of discussion. What about all the flame powered vapes where butane and potential butane combustion impurities being inhaled? What about using heat guns when Steinel has stated the air from their guns is not meant to be inhaled?

Have you read any of those threads? I haven't in depth, but I have certainly browsed over the first few pages of many. And in each and every case... when the new subject/vape comes up, the same questions and standards applicable here... are asked and applicable there. In fact, the forum is littered with dead vapes that never got off the ground, because of these questions/answers.

If there are companies out there making unsafe vapes and people are still buying them, that's their business to ignore it. Just as its the business of others, that are concerned... to discuss it. All these people complaining that one person, vape, philosophy are being targeted, don't seem to have the answers either. Why is that? And why do they lash out, when people that do care... ask the questions?

Its really simple. If you don't give a damn, or are just going to blindly follow what someone else tells you, without any proof, mind you... then that is your business and you really haven't any business, being in this discussion.

The third double standard, and mentioning it will probably get me banned or issued infractions, but I think it really needs to be brought up......In my perception this thread isn't really about materials but about a mod not being given a free vape from an independent artisan vape maker. FC is the primary market driver for many vape makers. A vape maker could have their business destroyed by an FC mod with some sort of grudge. Not cool in my book.

Yeah, that's a pretty serious accusation. And from what I know of the situation, you couldn't be further from the truth. You might want to rethink your take.

 

[vorrange]

I think it is fair to assume that someone who isn't confortable with a log vape's materials or process will have no desire to get anywhere near to an Arizer Solo or a DaVinci just to quote two different brands.

And i also think that mods are people too , and as such there is no double standard if he decides to make a thread about concerns regarding a specific vaporizer.

I also think that it is not fair for log makers to have to explain all their processes, and it is their call to decide to do it or not. If they don't, then it is up to you to decide what to do about it.

I share the concerns but i don't share the demands made.

If i had a design that was my own creation, i would be carefull not to reveal to much about the process and stick to materials only. There is such a thing as intelectual property and makers should have the choice to protect their designs. This is something that seems to be forgotten, which is compreensible given the delicate subject, but nonetheless, let's keep it in mind!

I speak for myself only: Despite the sometimes disagreable nature of this thread (again, totally understandable), i found it one of the most informative here and helpfull for people who have special needs or are just extra carefull (once again, understandable) and i thank all the makers who came forward as well.

And in a final word, let's keep in mind that log makers are much more like us than most of the makers out there.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Because a piece of wood never rotted before?

You are making your choices on your own acceptable risk, t dub is doing the same.

You do realize, you just walked right into that.

t-dub's standards, aren't the same as Vicki's, which aren't the same as mom's, nor mine, nor anyone else. That's the purpose of this thread. To have the questions answered for those that do care about specific topics.

I've asked plenty of you, that obviously don't care about what's used, don't care if people have concerns about their OWN PERSONAL needs, why you're in this thread? Not a single one of you have an answer.

Your vape is manufactured to your acceptable level of craftmanship and safety. You don't have the answers for any of the questions, other than trying to deflect a user's question, with an OT one of your own. People deflect for very specific reasons. Typically, because they don't want to hear the answer, or they're trying to protect someone/something.... or, they're in denial. Nothing personal about it. That's just human nature.

So, zymos... do you have the answers that people are seeking, or do you just have move deflection and more belittling of other people's concerns?

If i had a design that was my own creation, i would be carefull not to reveal to much about the process and stick to materials only. There is such a thing as intelectual property and makers should have the choice to protect their designs. This is something that seems to be forgotten, which is compreensible given the delicate subject, but nonetheless, let's keep it in mind!

You only have that right, to hide you intellectual property to a certain extent. If you plan on marketing it and selling it to the public. You have a legal obligation to have on hand and presentable to anyone that asks for it... a MSDS sheet for every product you use, that is covered under OSHA.

I know this for a fact, because I'm the one that had to take every tube of silicone, can of paint, pitch patch, roof sealant, etc in our inventory and dig up the MSDS for every single one of them. I then had to compile them all into a centralized location and have them ready, upon demand, by ANY customer or potential customer that asked for them.

That seems to be getting lost here. Unless of course, some hobbyist selling his wares to the public, manufactured and assembled with controlled substances, live under some different set of rules, I'm unaware of.

If so, I guess this is all a moot point. Dave or any of the other vape dudes, can flip us the bird and say "screw you, guys!" and we can just let this thread die.

 

[zymos]

I didn't walk into anything. I've repeated myself so many times now, EXPLICITLY STATING that everyone has their own level of risk tolerance, and that mine is not "better" than someone else's, it is just MINE.

And FFS, Dave posted the MSDS that he got with the material. That is the info people wanted, and that is all he has. ( except maybe the smoking gun you keep hinting about but are too considerate to mention) Yet that is still not good enough, people have doubts. As I and several others have said, if that information does not assuage your fears, then the only option is to not use the UD.

There is never going to be a solution that satisfies you, so why are YOU here, other than to drag down the level of discourse?

 

[jackmormon]

Some folks are just drawn to negativity, personal attacks, and confrontations like flies are drawn to shit This is just human nature.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

In my perception this thread isn't really about materials but about a mod not being given a free vape from an independent artisan vape maker.

wow, this isn't my perception of this thread ... just wanted to say that.

If i had a design that was my own creation, i would be carefull not to reveal to much about the process and stick to materials only. There is such a thing as intelectual property and makers should have the choice to protect their designs.

on the other hand, i see full disclosure as a competitive advantage.

 

[Vicki]

There is never going to be a solution that satisfies you, so why are YOU here, other than to drag down the level of discourse?

I'm here to get more answers, like BDV. The answers to questions that have not been answered yet. If all the questions had been addressed, don't you think the mods would have closed the thread by now? Makes sense to me.

 

[zymos]

What question are you still waiting to be answered? As I've mentioned at least 3 times now, Dave provided the MSDS he was given, and he said that is all the information he has. I don't see how continuing to ask him for something he is unable to supply is at all productive.

 

[Vicki]

All you have to do is go back and read the thread.....I'm not going to go back and quote it all for you again.