Obama's respons (to the F'ing raids in Cali this week)

dannkk

Well-Known Member
I still think its a crisis. I suggest you read up on how much debt is being absorbed by china. Everyone fears a war with north Korea. The reality is, it will be with China.. Thanks to Bill Clinton... But bush did have his finger on the bow that was tied to seal th deal. Had Clinton not even entertained the thought of getting in bed with china, 3/4 of our economic issues wouldnt exist. this is why Ann Coulter supports her statements in why democrats are communists. They go out of their way to support them....

China killed our manufacturing process by involving cheap labor... This has allowed China's copying to go mainstream..iPhone's were a very popular copy commodity just a few years ago. China also lacks a lot of integrity. For instance, it wouldn't be hard to get manufacturing processes from a china plant of a known product in the USA and duplicate it, then sell it. It's happening now and eBay is the biggest etailer of it. Nothing is safe in the country of china when it comes to any trade secrets of a product. I bet, if you wanted to copy the vapexhale, it too would be easily obtainable with the right connection.

I couldn't see anyone in congress allowing another country to take jobs and money from the American people on purpose... Just because, we're not known for manufacturing. Some of the best furniture ever made came from US factories... Not to mention steel and concrete. "Hi, we're apple.. We have 400 billion in profit because we use slave labor in china, harboring our money off shore and selling our shit to you overpriced. No, we will not manufacture here because it would dig into our record breaking profits and would have to pay ur fair share in American taxes" Obama, looked the other way when confronting Steve Jobs.. karma's a bitch Steve, rip...

Fuck these guys...

I do agree with a lot of this, but it really isn't paying a decent wage that keeps manufacturing from coming to the US. That's propaganda to make us feel that it is our fault. That, if we just weren't so greedy, America wouldn't be so fucked up. Now, there is some truth to that, but only in the sense that most Americans don't know how good they've got it here.

The reason there is no manufacturing to speak of here is because we have high corporate tax, and to many regulations. Every time an agency like the EPA passes a new regulation, that costs business money. This stuff adds up and we just have to many. We have to many because corporate America has been able to lobby congress into passing many of them in order to raise the cost of doing buisness, making it more difficult for an upstart or small business to take market share. Paying 50 people $50,000 a year to run a plant is nothing compared to how quickly this red tape adds up. A lot of it makes sense, and even saves lives, but not all of it. The regulations that are erroneous or need some huge agency to enforce, just makes everything more expensive to start business here.

We also have free trade agreements with countries like China. Tariffs and import taxes are supposed to level the playing field or even tilt it in favor of the home country, when it comes to dealing with a country like China, where the cost of doing buisness is much cheaper(lower taxes, less regulations and cheaper labor).

Please don't keep thinking it's your fellow Americans wanting to make enough money to live and have a retirement that is keeping the country down. It's got nothing to do with those people. It's all about greedy fucks that have let this situation come to pass. They've passed shitty bills in order to get VP positions at scumbag companies that covet profits more than human life, health or happiness. They care nothing for this situation we're in. They just want to get elected again or get that corporate job after doing some dirty work. If they seriously cared, they could do a lot of things to work on fixing it. The fact that they're basically just shrugging and saying "Let's spend more money," just goes to show that they don't care AT ALL. Congress will not save you. Not unless they're replaced with real people.

Also...I never said anything about the US being known or unknown for manufacturing. Since you bring it up, though, it's only been about 40 or 50 years since we were the manufacturing powerhouse of the world. That's why the dollar became so powerful, and also, why it's so weak today. The dollar was strong when we made things other countries needed. America was the first country to seriously mass produce cars. Other countries made cars. Probably even better cars. But we made lots and lots and lots of them and made them cheaply. Enough to get the world driving. People wanted the US dollar, because you needed the US dollar, if you wanted to buy cars from the US. GM wouldn't accept franks. Several other things we made and exported like this, but cars are a good example. Oil is a good one, too. During the oil boom in the south, we were one of the highest producers of oil, and you needed dollars to buy our oil. That's how we became the world reserve currency. Everyone needed dollars. No matter what, your country needed something from the US. Now, the reason the dollar is still holding on by a thread, is because several countries still will only accept US dollars for their oil. So, dollars have value to the entire world, but only because they need them to buy oil from countries like Iraq or Saudi Arabia.

This is why I feel there's a bit of artificiality to this crisis. Things are bad, and we could definitely fall off the edge of the waterfall...but it's like no ones thought to pull on the rudder and change direction. If anything, the politicians are unfurling the sails and charging at it, telling you the rudder is broke and there's nothing we can do to change our fate. We make something the world needs again, and the dollar will gain back a lot of it's strength. I also promise you, that Americans wanting a decent wage isn't what is stopping this from happening. They could afford to pay the Chinese workers 10 bucks an hour(or whatever is a living wage with retirement in China, I honestly don't know)...they just don't.
 
dannkk,
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Venomous

Well-Known Member
Good morning!

It's also what white people do, throughout history, long before the 1960's. Look up the history of my name, Wat Tyler. Rioting itself is not a racial issue and the exclusive past time of the black community. It's a social one- it's generally the poorest with the least to loose who riot. But not exclusively- we had violent protest and clashes with police from the upper classes as well as the normal rural population in the UK when the government banned hunting for foxes with a pack of dogs in 2004. Not quite a riot, but seeing their reaction I wonder how much further they would have needed to be pushed before they did just become hell bent on destruction of the system they felt was shafting them. Remember this even included posh people from families with old money.

Good day Wat...

Sure its a racial issue. Racism is why they riot to begin with Wat. They claim racism, then "burn the bitch down." Its far from social. Had they taken a social route, they would write about it instead... publications work just as well. In the last 15 years, MUSIC has been the most popular social media used by blacks to get the word out. Today, not even poor blacks are the main stream who riot. Infact, if you look at trayvon martin in particular, a lot of blacks with money wanted to protest, which ultimately, could of led up to a riot over the entire issue.

It wasnt until the two dipshits known as Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson realized..." oh shit, this man isnt white, so we can't use this approach." They called for a stand down leading to an uprising.

The odd thing is, i never seen Obama force a local government into a more detailed investigation or send the FBI down to investigate any murder case involving a white/hispanic victim killed by a black... This looks particularly bad that because the kid was black, that is why he dispatched resources not common to anyone else.





I agree they have no right to do this. But it doesn't mean it is without reason. It's fucked up, for sure, but they are certainly not the only parties involved. You've got to look at the whole situation. And try to find some logic- because as you point out it's their own community members and interests that are hurt.

There is no logic. There's proper courses of action you take when an injustice is found. It doesn't give you the right to act like a thug asshole and start destroying businesses your fellow man has worked hard to build just because you're pissed off. Everything based on these peoples perception was none other than opinion. Their opinion forced a white man to be damn near killed when the riots began... not to mention, more racial slurs against whites than ive seen with every black comedian combined in the last 30 years when it comes to white jokes...



It's a bit like watching someone self harming, you know- where they cut their arm/leg skin with a knife. Well that's very flawed logic too. I think everyone with a bit of sense realises that attacking them for their lack of logic in cutting themselves is not going to be the thing that solves such a complicated issue. There are fundamental issues underlying this symptom. Likewise it's a profoundly sick and destructive society, but I think it can be better if we look at understanding the causes rather than the symptoms.

Not quite the analogy you should be using... suicidal actions are a mere cry for help or attention. And.. its one person.. We are talking about large number of people... 3 days before the big riot, gang members belonging to the sets of Crips and Bloods met and agreed to a stand down between their rival gangs to address the outcome of the verdict. In fact, it was premeditated that an attack would be made if the verdict came back not guilty.
 

Venomous

Well-Known Member
Think that when you're locked in your FEMA camp.

Umm negative.. would never happen... Cops and Military would not be stupid enough to go knocking down citizens doors in such a condition. They know that if they are deemed a threat by a citizen, they could be shot and killed, therefore justified for their actions to protect themselves and property. In today's world, martial law only keeps people off the streets by a certain time so it gives the government an opportunity to concentrate on "hot zones" and restore order.We did this block by block during the LA Riots.


I'm a little confused by that to be honest. The UK works under a system of parliamentary democracy too- we're not big into direct democratic participation and rarely have referendum. I don't think it's as different as you're imagining? And in some ways it's even more direct in America- don't you get to elect your Prosecutors and Police Chiefs? We don't (though I'm very, very glad for that fact). The UK is not a direct democracy. I'm not aware of anywhere that is.

Im Welsh, born in America, Raised in South Cardiff until age 12, and came back to the USA. Im quite aware of both systems of government and what makes them different, effective and ineffective. Electing our own officials keeps a bit more control of top level corruption and allowing them to bring in other people down the timeline from picking up where the other left off. At a local gov level, we elect our city officials (townships). Prosecutors aren't elected officials here, they are hired like any other employee of local government, but county sheriffs are elected. Police Chiefs are appointed by the Mayor of your city.

The queen is only the head of state on paper- she could never exercise her full power for with holding Royal Assent nowadays (although I think that if this were 'on paper' in the USA the paranioa would be manic and the tea party would probably be advocating adhering to it- I think we're maybe more used to having ancient rubbish on the statue books as long as it doesn't interfere with modern progress- when it does we change it, but there's so much that if its not broken...)

Im aware of that and agree. Why change history :)

Wales has always been it's own country, as have England and Scotland since long before the act of union. These together with Northern Ireland make up the United Kingdom of Great Britain. England is just the most populous of these four countries and in American has become synonymous with the UK, to the chagrin of the other UK nationalities. What has happened in recent years is some devolution of certain administrative powers to these composite nations. Effectively regionalisation. In some ways I guess you could draw some loose parallels between state and federal government in the USA. But it's not the break away in Wales I think you might perceive it as- the Welsh people chose not to take as many powers for the Welsh Assembly as the Scots did, and they're not really into the idea of breaking from the UK at all- just a bit more local influence on local decisions. The Scottish Government however wants complete separation from the UK as it's own sovereign state, and a referendum is due in 2014.

Welsh have always been their own people, with their own values. More laid back and not into the nonsense of the wish washy monarchy of GB. They were originally into liberalism but grew into socialism in the early 20th century. This is an interesting influence later on for Diana and her acts of humanitarianism. Referendums were held in both Wales and Scotland in 1997 for the creation of self government. This because neither country liked how monies were being distributed. Now about Diana and The Queen...

What you forget is, Lady Diana had gone away to several schools during her upbringing. This is where she befriended several Welsh girls and had her liberal British influence washed away with a socialist outlook. After she graduated and turned 18, she moved to London where she was living it up at pubs because of Welsh influence she had years beforehand.

The Queen did not like Diana because she wasn't traditional British any longer... She knew, hell, the Queen knew Charles was fucking around on Diana with an old girlfriend, long before 1985... and when Diana brought it to the Queens attention, she was told that " men have affairs, women do not..."

Her recent influence of Welsh culture began to stir in her head... where she decided, that's a crock of shit, i'll find someone to have an affair with too and end this marriage on my terms. How many letters did Margret burn that were addressed to Elizabeth? How many times did Margaret snitch off Diana to the Queen? You and i do not have enough fingers and toes combined to come up with that number Wat... The Queen hated Diana and it showed as not one tear was shed when she heard about Diana's death. The Queen was also pissed off about the public's reaction to Diana's death.

It's actually a slightly skewed system as there's no separate English administration- England is done at the UK level, which mean that you have Scottish and Welsh and Northern Irish elected representatives voting on solely English issues amongst UK ones, yet English members can't participate in devolved administration decision making. I don't think in practise it's caused any issue yet though.

Well both Wales and Scotland do not like how monies are distributed among the kingdom, which is why Scotland wants to be its own country. Wales know its been its own country for hundreds of years and doesn't give a fuck about power in the sense of how the monarchy runs. They just want their portion of the money equally split among everyone.

Finally, the queen certainly did not hate princess Diana due to any Welsh connection. Firstly Diana was only the princess of Wales in name, she's actually from a very, very English aristocratic dynasty (the Spencers). Secondly, whilst Diana might have been the Princess of Wales, the Queen herself is the Queen of Wales. In a sense even more Welsh than Diana was.

Most certainly she did... most Brits see otherwise... In fact, most Brits see her as a traitor to the UK for dating a middle easterner. That's a big fucking no no to UK traditionalist and made the queen even more pissed off once the media began reporting it.

I'm aware of her Wales title by name.. what you left out is, her Welsh influence by females attending her boarding school. Diana was brought up as a liberal, did poorly in school and had no self identity until she was shipped off to boarding school. This is where she took on a socialism view to politics for herself, which was influenced by Welsh students at her school. The Queen hated that she lost her liberal views and wasn't welcome to old ways in which the royal family operates.
 
Venomous,
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Venomous

Well-Known Member
I do agree with a lot of this, but it really isn't paying a decent wage that keeps manufacturing from coming to the US. That's propaganda to make us feel that it is our fault. That, if we just weren't so greedy, America wouldn't be so fucked up. Now, there is some truth to that, but only in the sense that most Americans don't know how good they've got it here.

Correct, but its not the average working person that needs to feel guilty. Its the politicians who were greedy and fucked all of us over in the process.


The reason there is no manufacturing to speak of here is because we have high corporate tax, and to many regulations. Every time an agency like the EPA passes a new regulation, that costs business money. This stuff adds up and we just have to many. We have to many because corporate America has been able to lobby congress into passing many of them in order to raise the cost of doing buisness, making it more difficult for an upstart or small business to take market share. Paying 50 people $50,000 a year to run a plant is nothing compared to how quickly this red tape adds up. A lot of it makes sense, and even saves lives, but not all of it. The regulations that are erroneous or need some huge agency to enforce, just makes everything more expensive to start business here.

Well the high corporate tax really isn't that high. Alternatively, the US could lower the tax rate by an easy 10%. But what they need to control is how big corporate businesses operate and how stock is distributed, cashed in, than diluted. Enron? EPA doesn't need to exist anyhow. They are nothing more than a cash for for congress.. Infact, California Air Resource Board (CARB) who allows OTHER businesses to seel pollution credits to other businesses if they don't use them all during that year, so the company doesn't get fined... When Arnold took over as governator in CA, he asked CARB where the fuck did all the money go that was collected from Smog violators and people began to resign, left and right. Its all bullshit and i believe EPA, DOE, and many other ORGs within our gov need to fucking go.


We also have free trade agreements with countries like China. Tariffs and import taxes are supposed to level the playing field or even tilt it in favor of the home country, when it comes to dealing with a country like China, where the cost of doing buisness is much cheaper(lower taxes, less regulations and cheaper labor).

Ive not been able to find a public dollar amount they take in each year over tariffs and shit. It leads me to believe this money is going elsewhere and being used for more undercover shit we don't need to be involved with.

Please don't keep thinking it's your fellow Americans wanting to make enough money to live and have a retirement that is keeping the country down. It's got nothing to do with those people. It's all about greedy fucks that have let this situation come to pass. They've passed shitty bills in order to get VP positions at scumbag companies that covet profits more than human life, health or happiness. They care nothing for this situation we're in. They just want to get elected again or get that corporate job after doing some dirty work. If they seriously cared, they could do a lot of things to work on fixing it. The fact that they're basically just shrugging and saying "Let's spend more money," just goes to show that they don't care AT ALL. Congress will not save you. Not unless they're replaced with real people.

Exactly and well said.

Also...I never said anything about the US being known or unknown for manufacturing. Since you bring it up, though, it's only been about 40 or 50 years since we were the manufacturing powerhouse of the world. That's why the dollar became so powerful, and also, why it's so weak today. The dollar was strong when we made things other countries needed. America was the first country to seriously mass produce cars. Other countries made cars. Probably even better cars. But we made lots and lots and lots of them and made them cheaply. Enough to get the world driving. People wanted the US dollar, because you needed the US dollar, if you wanted to buy cars from the US. GM wouldn't accept franks. Several other things we made and exported like this, but cars are a good example. Oil is a good one, too. During the oil boom in the south, we were one of the highest producers of oil, and you needed dollars to buy our oil. That's how we became the world reserve currency. Everyone needed dollars. No matter what, your country needed something from the US. Now, the reason the dollar is still holding on by a thread, is because several countries still will only accept US dollars for their oil. So, dollars have value to the entire world, but only because they need them to buy oil from countries like Iraq or Saudi Arabia.

Should i play devils adocate here and ask where all of our gold is? We need to use our reserve, work on natural gas as our primary fuel source for cars and watch saudi arabia sink. Venezuela should be a close second here.


This is why I feel there's a bit of artificiality to this crisis. Things are bad, and we could definitely fall off the edge of the waterfall...but it's like no ones thought to pull on the rudder and change direction. If anything, the politicians are unfurling the sails and charging at it, telling you the rudder is broke and there's nothing we can do to change our fate. We make something the world needs again, and the dollar will gain back a lot of it's strength. I also promise you, that Americans wanting a decent wage isn't what is stopping this from happening. They could afford to pay the Chinese workers 10 bucks an hour(or whatever is a living wage with retirement in China, I honestly don't know)...they just don't.


Well, i would agree its an artificial crisis had the banks not got a double dip bailout. But we definitely need to rid our corrupt politicians and save the damage that's been done. You and i know, if we had to do everything in our power to save our family and friends from a car accident with a stuck gas pedal, we wouldn't just steer into danger while making no effort to avoid it.
 

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
Also...I never said anything about the US being known or unknown for manufacturing.

Damn *stoners should run everything... we're brilliant!

Seriously though, some great points and thoughts, dannkk. Thank you, sincerely... for sharing. I really wanted to highlight this one, however... as it is a HUGE peeve of mine. Yeah, we had a society based off manufacturing, but like you said... a whole bunch of greedy-ass politicians helped screw that pooch. However, I must add that a combination of the 60s movement and Generation X (I'm 45, so at the head of the class there)... Americans were all too happy to turn into a consumer/service based economy.

I've always found mobs to be incredibly stupid. I've found that true of mass populations also (like mass population centers... or "cities" ;)). I always said, my favorite thing about the Internet, is it PROVES there's a whole lot of people out their, dumber than me. :D

I must add though, is we are capable of Energy Independence, which would go a LONG ways towards creating jobs and sustaining a much better way of life. We have the natural resources. I don't care to debate the existence or the supposed difficulties in extracting. I worked in the petroleum industry, we can have rigs up, running and pumping in about 6 months. Don't believe the 5-10 year horseshit. Plus, had we started drilling, back when they FIRST started using that stupid argument... we'd be 30 years into it, or just turn on the existing ones, we already have! We could also be a LOT further on alternate technologies, had both sides just been willing to sit the Hell down and figure something out.

The public's problem, is with MTV, McDonald's and Microwave Ovens. We were way too willing to let them put a TV and some chewy chicken nuggets, in front of us and park our asses, becoming a ME first, short-attention span, want everything NOW society.

*I say "stoners" with nothing but love and respect. Growing up, they were MY people. Though my needs have changed to medical, I still connect to the culture and love it... even a damn ,old ass, grumpy, Tea-Bagging, racist, sexist, want to kill Americans by taking away their SS and Medicare, evil Conservative!
 
BigDaddyVapor,

Venomous

Well-Known Member
The only way to actually correct our path is to cut spending, by 50-60%

Yea but it would never happen. Remember how dipshit Clinton appeared to have balanced the budget. Just everyone forgot he used our Social Security fund to do so... The money was still missing and never replaced.

image001.jpg
 

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
Wat, man... while we may not see eye-to-eye on some things, you make wonderful points and have a good knack for expressing them.

Thank you, for your input. In fact, thank you all. One of the first political discussions I've seen with degrees of disagreement and everyone is civil.

Ain't MJ wonderful. World Damn Peace, I swear... its right at our finger-tips!
 
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Venomous

Well-Known Member
Usually most discussions like these end up with people telling each other to fuck off and end with calling each other faggots. It's nice it's not personal attacks. The international audience and opinion helps here.
 

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
Just a side note on the FEMA camps and both Left and Right fears, depending who's in office of being shipped off to camps.

I am a veteran. My son is active duty. A very large percentage of my friends are law enforcement. I don't know the LEO oath, but a lot are vets. We took an oath. That oath did NOT include an expiration date. It included protecting this country against enemies, both foreign and domestic. I know it sounds cliche and probably overused, however we're the guys that KNOW we have the guts to fight. Currently, not a whole lot of us, are fans of Obama. In fact, during my 9 day cruise with a bunch of Sailors and Marines, I found out there's just downright hostility towards the man. Say what you want about GWB, even when he did things that weren't in our personal best interests. But, the troops LOVED him. Why? Because he did and does, actually give a shit.

Anyone that believes LEOs and military are going to start shipping you off to FEMA camps. Trust me... rest easy. Unless the wannabe POTUS in training, gets his wish of a "national security force" as well-funded, etc... (and yes, I've read the debunk theory from factcheck, they're full of shit).
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
One thing that needs clarification here regarding our troops not liking Obama but liking Bush, in my opinion, has nothing about Bush giving a shit and/or Obama not giving a shit, but more to do with the demographics of our military. It is an all volunteer force right now and I have no doubt that as a group, they would tend to come from a more conservative, right wing part of our country. See here:



I'm a vet as well, and I was at the VA last week and while in the waiting room with about 35 other vets watching political reporting on TV, the vast majority of them were Obama fans and the reason I think why that was, was that this group was primarily from the VietNam era and as such, was not part of an all volutneer force but part of a force that were, for a very large part, drafted and the demographics from a drafted force is quite a bit different that the demographics from an all volunteer force because in a force that is primarily drafted, the demographics is represented as more of a cross-section of the country. See here:


Personally, unless something dramatic happens either on the national security front or the economic front, this election will not be a landslide either way, but in fact, will be a very, very close election.

Of course, and I'm not suggesting that you are one of these, BDV, those that live on a steady diet of either Fox News or MSNBC News, would be convinced that this WILL be a landslide election, going in one direction or the other, depending on which one of these overly dogmatic news stations one watches.
 

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
I typically get my news from AP and Reuters, I then follow up checking different news outlets, for different takes.

Back when I worked for Dish and we had a labor dispute, we had the National HR VP coming to our office. When talking to a group of us, she always focused on me and asked me the questions. I finally got uncomfortable and asked her, why all the focus. She told me, "John... because you have an ability to take both sides of an argument, weigh the +/-, look at it from a logical/rational level and come to a reasonable conclusion." Now, while I certainly don't practice that behavior with my emotions, in the heat of the moment. During talk and negotiation, I'm all ears.

Your experience @ the VA, I think had more to do with demographics and the area, rather than the era. I've met more than a few Vietnam Vets that are benign or benevolent towards Obama... but no rabid Obamazombies. Plus, very few numbers of them. I know your area well. You all were in our territory at Dish. Definitely not Conservativeville. Love the area... but definitely left-leaners. Anyplace south of Castaic, other than Orange County and areas of Sand Dawg are definitely blue on the map. I grew up in in the San Fernando Valley, like totally ya know, Northridge and Tarzana. Also, typically... when you sit down with those guys and actually start talking to them about their ideology, they aren't any fans of the people that spit on them, when coming home. Nancy Pelosi, Barney Fwank... they are those people. Get down to it... and they don't agree with anything they're doing. Obama just represents a "cool" version of the politicians that led them into a really shitty situation.

Finally, while this is an all volunteer force, many During Desert Storm were either extended, or called up from active reserves. Plus... the National Guard went from weekend warriors, to coming back home in body bags. The current 10+ years of conflict, has led to a very large majority of all those guys/gals. Extended, back-to-back tours, etc. Most went fighting under Bush and even with as shitty the experiences they went thru, for what has now become a joke (Afghanistan - OBL is dead, isn't he?)... vets still show him the utmost respect and genuine emotions, when he does stuff like (even still today)... no press invited, or even aware... GWB has shown up at airport to welcome back troops and thank them. The only way you find out about them, is when someone posts a video and then, only if you just happen to read the right forums. The media certainly isn't showing us these special events.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not any fan of GWB. Especially his (lack of) leadership, after 2006. He was a Social Conservative (Which I am to, on some subjects, but I'm also kind of Libertarian there. I'll live my life, you live yours)... but he wasn't close to being a Fiscal Conservative. Hell, I'd dare say he was a Populist with a strong lean towards liberal, on economic issues.

Finally, in regards to Fox you have to put it into context. If you're watching Hannity, O'Reilly and others, you're watching an opinion show. I don't watch any of them, except Hannity and that will only be, if he's having a certain guest on. Newscasts are newscasts. As the most recent Pew Research poll showed, Fox News, is actually the most "fair and balanced"... that's where they got the catchphrase. Though, I certainly wouldn't call them an "unbiased third party". They've got agendas to. They are on a whole different plane of credibility than a shithole like MSNBC (who's ever worse ratings prove it). But I don't really watch newscasts either. I hate the additional drama they HAVE to add to any story and the polished and manufactured feel of it all, at times.

Whew... that was a mouthful. :p

EDIT: My claim of a landslide doesn't have anything to do with news reports, statistics, etc. Its a gut-feeling. And over the years, there seem to be two things I can read very well, on instinct alone. The Lakers and Politics. Though, its a good thing I'm not a gambler. A holic behavior I'm happy I didn't develop, for sure. If I have the time, to read the facts going into a situation, I can make a pretty damn accurate call. You have to read between the lines and especially in politics.... you HAVE to respect the misery index. It ain't going down.
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
I gotta tell ya, DBV, where I live, in Arcadia, it's pretty damn conservative, and definitely Republican. I was born and raised in West Los Angeles where it is predominantly liberal. I'm definitely a fish out of water here. It's weird how just a few miles changes things......dramatically.

From what I've seen on Fox, BDV, which I watch quite a bit, the ONLY shows that are not biased is Shepard Smith and Wallace. Everything else has a definitive left wing, conservative spin. When you top this off with shows like O'Rielly, Hannity, The Five, and Huckabee, you have a station that, without a doubt, leans right by quite a lot.
 
lwien,

BigDaddyVapor

@BigDogJunction
I just really can't speak to newscasts. 15-20 years ago, I used to watch the network news, nightly. Habit I picked up from my Grandfather. Then I noticed after years of this, I was always in a foul mood for an hour or so, afterwards. Then it hit me, what they're really selling. Its not news. Its hype and agenda. Screw them... all of them.
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
I just really can't speak to newscasts. 15-20 years ago, I used to watch the network news, nightly. Habit I picked up from my Grandfather. Then I noticed after years of this, I was always in a foul mood for an hour or so, afterwards. Then it hit me, what they're really selling. Its not news. Its hype and agenda. Screw them... all of them.

Yeah, and that's why I get my news from multiple sources. I don't want to get brain washed by any one source. I gotta watch them all and come up with my own conclusions. What I don't understand are those that just watch a news station that supports their preconceived ideas. It's like preaching to the choir. Why the fuck do that? Seems like a total waste of time not to expose yourself to perspectives that may be different than your own. It's like self prescribed myopia. Tunnel vision by choice.
 
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WatTyler

Revolting Peasant
Here is what happens when people try to break into a person's home.....THIS is the point I have been trying to make, as have others. Violence begets violence, period.
I do see what you're trying to say, but still if you look beyond the outcome in that report it would seem that guy was a nutter - the fact that he wanted to fist fight a guy who had already fired a gun, and didn't run after already being caught next door say to me that he might well have had mental health issues. It's very different to the issue of the uprising of the lowest social classes. I can see how and why he got shot though, if that helps. Many of us holding a gun in that situation might have done the same I'm sure. If he was mentally ill though I'm not sure one can argue that he deserved it, at least not without this background information- I guess my point I've been trying to make is that including this is key in understanding the suituation especially if you don't want it to happen again. In this case it might be that security was poor at a nearby mental hospital, easily remedied and lives potentially saved, but unless you care to try to understand the background and facts behind a situation and move beyond focusing on just the results then you'll miss it and it could happen again. Preventing a riot is far more attention worthy than using martial law to cure one.

I agree with lots of that analysis, though we advocate different solutions (I guess the Frank Newman video didn't convince you) . It's a lot like the collapse of complex societies notion, which carries plenty of weight looking through history. but it is suggested that the combined modern forces of markets and democracy could avoid this by preventing any particular elite maintaining unbroken control. That sounds sensible to me -as modern society has seen increased markets and democracy we have seen increased complexity that was unattainable before in the examples we look to. This has to be the direction that we seek as it suggests it's the only way to sustain a complex society - the alternative (according to theory) is collapse as gentle simplification is not possible (or hasn't been achieved yet) not because people haven't tried, but because the system can't allow it. I think the complexity of the modern global financial system is quite reflective here.

But I don't think it's likely we can have the massive collapse of a society that is feared (without natural disaster) - now we have a much more interlinked global economy and many more markets. It could be slightly less good for America and more good for China, but I don't think we'll see the long term total collapse of economies and societies that we have in the past- apart from the odd blip globally we will keep producing (pending some global natural disaster) and econonically growing. It's essentially tied to human population size and has been forever.

Welsh have always been their own people, with their own values. More laid back and not into the nonsense of the wish washy monarchy of GB. They were originally into liberalism but grew into socialism in the early 20th century. This is an interesting influence later on for Diana and her acts of humanitarianism. Referendums were held in both Wales and Scotland in 1997 for the creation of self government. This because neither country liked how monies were being distributed.
I guess you could boil devolution down to just not liking how money was being distributed, though there's really a strong nationalist principle at stake for some. However it's not as many as it was for Wales- the latest 2012 poll for BBC Wales showed just 7% in favour of full independence, compared to around 20% in 2007.

What you forget is, Lady Diana had gone away to several schools during her upbringing. This is where she befriended several Welsh girls and had her liberal British influence washed away with a socialist outlook.....

The Queen did not like Diana because she wasn't traditional British any longer...

Her recent influence of Welsh culture began to stir in her head... where she decided, that's a crock of shit, i'll find someone to have an affair with too and end this marriage on my terms.
Well I guess we can agree that the queen disliked her and her politics, even if we disagree on the reason. Not that I'm even sure we do that much- fundamentally it was a personal dislike between the two, which happens often in the world. How much of that was due to any specific welsh national influence..... I'm not convinced, and a quarter of my DNA is from a Welshman so not offended if they could claim some kind of 'credit'. But it reads a little like a fairy tale written by Ned Thomas (you'll enjoy his book, if you haven't read it already http://cymdeithas.org/dadlwytho/ned-thomas-the-welsh-extremist.pdf , but bear in mind the changes since it was written) and is a version of events from a proud Welshman, rather than an objective one. Having school friends from Wales is a slightly tenuous link IMO, though I won't deny friends do play a strong role in your formative years. Also, the boarding school was about 20 miles from where I grew up in Kent (south east england) It's a very exclusive school (or at least it used to be) and they're not really very often hotbeds of socialist ideology.

Most certainly she did... most Brits see otherwise... In fact, most Brits see her as a traitor to the UK for dating a middle easterner. That's a big fucking no no to UK traditionalist and made the queen even more pissed off once the media began reporting it.
This is totally false. There is very, very little popular anti Diana sentiment in the UK- she can even still feature on the front page of the Daily Express newspaper from time to time (Express readers are something else though!). There may be issues within royal circles, but this doesn't extend to the public consciousness at all.

Wat, man...
Cheers :cheers:
Just a side note on the FEMA camps and both Left and Right fears, depending who's in office of being shipped off to camps.

I am a veteran. My son is active duty. A very large percentage of my friends are law enforcement. I don't know the LEO oath, but a lot are vets. We took an oath...

I'd certainly like to think the same, but I don't think we can take that for granted and rest on our laurels. History has shown us often enough that good people can be turned against their own. Even in the class room in experiments with the un-indoctrinated- look at Milgram's obedience study in the 60's where subjects were willing to deliver what they believed to be fatal electric shocks to other test subjects, or the Stanford Prison Experiment in the 70's.
 
WatTyler,

dannkk

Well-Known Member
I agree with lots of that analysis, though we advocate different solutions (I guess the Frank Newman video didn't convince you) .

I think I missed that video. I'm not very educated so I can't articulate it to well, but that's basically what I see, too. Just what I've gathered wading through the garbage bin of the internet lol. On paper...our form of government should work amazingly. The right fighting the left, and the actual government falling in the middle. It's just that with only two parties, and so much money involved, it's to easy to corrupt. People have also grown so apathetic. It's not like we're all immune, either.

I agree about the collapse ideas, too. That stuff is so sensationalized.

I see you guys talking about FEMA camps. Personally, I don't think they're anything but what they're intended to be. Camps to be used in case of disaster. They just don't want to come out and say, "Well, there's 12 million people around here, if an earthquake tears downtown in half, we need somewhere to put all of you that survive." I did see some videos, though, that bring the UN or NWO into the idea. That participating countries would trade troops. There could be Chinese soldiers oppressing Americans, while our troops are in China doing it over there. They could even use troops from countries that are already biased against the US.
 
dannkk,

Tea Party

Boro Connoisseur
I gotta tell ya, DBV, where I live, in Arcadia, it's pretty damn conservative, and definitely Republican. I was born and raised in West Los Angeles where it is predominantly liberal. I'm definitely a fish out of water here. It's weird how just a few miles changes things......dramatically.

From what I've seen on Fox, BDV, which I watch quite a bit, the ONLY shows that are not biased is Shepard Smith and Wallace. Everything else has a definitive left wing, conservative spin. When you top this off with shows like O'Rielly, Hannity, The Five, and Huckabee, you have a station that, without a doubt, leans right by quite a lot.

Funny you mention that there was a guy from Arcadia on my middle east trip. With out a doubt not a republican but this guy was no liberal. No college education but a very hard worker and an avid investor. It showed me not to judge a book by it's cover. I figured being from norcal this guy was a huge democrat but not in the least bit. He invited me to come down in the fall and see how it goes down in the emerald triangle.

I like pieces that John stossel does.
 
Tea Party,

lwien

Well-Known Member
I like pieces that John stossel does.

A bit too Libertarian for my taste, but sometimes, he hits on something that makes me go...........hmmmmm. :hmm:

Same goes for O'Rielly.

And that's one of the reasons I watch Fox. While I consider myself a Liberal, those two will say things every once in awhile that causes me to question some long held beliefs. The other reason is that I really want to know how Conservatives think, so when I have a discussion with them, I can at least have some empathy and understanding as to where they're coming from.

Hannity, on the other hand, for me, has absolutely no redeeming qualities and makes me want to put my foot through the screen every time I try and listen to him. Same goes for what's her face that sits in for O'Rielly every once in awhile, who Stewart, jokingly calls the cross lady.
 
lwien,

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
You know, lwien brings up a great point, and that is this. What are we exactly? The Nolan test tries to help us understand ourselves a little better. The Nolan test expands on the traditional left/right paradigm by adding up and down (totalitarianism vs freedom) as well. With a quick 10 question test, you can see where you fall. Its very interesting. A lot of people (like me) find out they are actually libertarians lol ;)

Click for test VVV

 
t-dub,
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Vicki

Herbal Alchemist
You know, lwien brings up a great point, and that is this. What are we exactly? The Nolan test tries to help us understand ourselves a little better. The Nolan test expands on the traditional left/right paradigm by adding up and down (totalitarianism vs freedom) as well. With a quick 10 question test, you can see where you fall. Its very interesting. A lot of people (like me) find out they are actually libertarians lol ;)

Click for test VVV


Took the test, here is the result:

Where You Scored On The Survey
Your answers suggest that you are a libertarian. The yellow star shows generally where you fall within the libertarian region of the Nolan Chart.

My star was in the top left of the libertarian block.

libertarian: supports the smallest possible government, supports individual liberty in all ways, prefers to only defend our borders and not interfere in other countries' affairs.
 
Vicki,
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t-dub

Vapor Sloth
What did you think about the questions Vicki? Has your self image changed at all?
 
t-dub,

Vicki

Herbal Alchemist
What did you think about the questions Vicki? Has your self image changed at all?

Actually, no. It seemed very clear to me which was the correct answer (for me), very quickly. It didn't take me long to finish the test, and when I read the results, I thought, "Yeah, that's pretty much me." I never knew what I would be classified as until now, thank you, t-dub! :D
 
Vicki,
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