You cant trust concentrates these days

[Pressisbest]

You think it's smoother because of the elimination of waxes, but it's most likely smoother from the elimination of a large percentage of harsh monoterpenes left behind with the waxes during the winterization process.

It's definitely a better, more pleasing experience, that's for sure.

The idea that inhaling cannabis residuals is a problem is a current theory which I do find valid enough to entertain, but I also recognize the lack of information on the subject.

Research "lipid pneumonia" when you have some time. Is that something you'd like to chance if there was a simple way to avoid it?

I'm not even sure I understand what you're arguing. That this process is bogus? If you feel that's the case, don't do it.

Let others make up their own minds.

is this your thread? nice work!

Yes. Thank you.

When I move to California, I'll be growing and grinding and squishing my own buds. I mean it's nice that it's legal and it's cool you can buy it, but come on we had to know that legal weed is big business and companies will cut whatever corners to make that money.

Read up on what's happening in California. Over 90% of the material tested is loaded with pesticides. It's the Wild West all over again out there. It's not just the big producers, either. They're all cutting corners to make a buck.

I'm more and more convinced most of the terpenes added to concentrates is the same shit we see in all of our food products called "natural flavoring"... They all leave this chemical burn in my throat

Correct. There is simply no need to add anything at all to the concentrate if you follow my procedure. Good organicly grown flower, pressed recently after harvest, will give you the calming high you're desiring with no after taste, no lung congestion, nothing coming back to haunt you later on.

It's not rocket science. I leave that up to SpaceX : )

 

[Tranquility]

Research "lipid pneumonia" when you have some time. Is that something you'd like to chance if there was a simple way to avoid it?

What makes you think your process "avoids" it?

The incidence of LP is so rare, I'd worry more of the benzene from vaping and cancer than the waxes and pneumonia. There has been a lawsuit about a company that made a similar claim against another company because that company used coconut oil in the juice in their pen vapes.

http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/CivilCourtCases/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2016-091384

The core of the case [ https://mjbizdaily.com/vape-lawsuit-foreshadow-litigious-future-cannabis-industry/ ]

Dream Steam alleges in its suit that Openvape spread “defamatory statements” in 2015 and early 2016 about the safety of coconut oil as an additive to vaporizer cartridges, including that it can cause a form of pneumonia.
​

If there were good studies that proved vaping lipids *caused* pneumonia, the suit goes no where because it is not defamatory as truth is a defense.

Now, none of that means that winterizing isn't a good thing. It's just that before we bring out the "scaries" (The sky is falling, no one is getting out alive, think of the children, etc.), it seems there needs to be a bit more work in making a connection rather than an accusation. (An accusation that may just cost the company being sued, that I linked, quite a bit.)

 

[Pressisbest]

What makes you think your process "avoids" it...

What makes you think it does not?

If there were good studies that proved vaping lipids *caused* pneumonia, the suit goes no where because it is not defamatory as truth is a defense.

Well, you can take the "wait a second see" approach if you want, I'd rather do something now while I can still breath without an oxygen tank.

Now, none of that means that winterizing isn't a good thing. It's just that before we bring out the "scaries"... it seems there needs to be a bit more work in making a connection rather than an accusation.

I'm not accusing anyone. All I'm trying to do, and why you all are fighting this is beyond reason, is offer up an alternative approach that is already lab tested, not by me, but by dozens of sophisticated commercial cannabis concentrate producers around the world.

Take it or leave it.

 

[Tranquility]

What makes you think it does not?

You made the claim.

Well, you can take the "wait a second see" approach if you want, I'd rather do something now while I can still breath without an oxygen tank.

So...no basis.

I'm not accusing anyone. All I'm trying to do, and why you all are fighting this is beyond reason, is offer up an alternative approach that is already lab tested, not by me, but by dozens of sophisticated commercial cannabis concentrate producers around the world.

As to if your process results in less lipids without more of other things that are bad, I have no position. As to if your process results in less chance of LP, I merely point out there is no real basis for that belief. (The "accusation" is not against people but lipids. You are making the claim that the waxes etc. in non-winterized concentrates is the cause of LP.)

 

[Pressisbest]

If you can offer up a better process of cleaning up pressed flower prior to using in a pen-type liquid vaporizer, please do so.

I'd like to test it and compare to the way I'm doing it.

You have my way. Now give me yours.

 

[Tranquility]

If you can offer up a better process of cleaning up pressed flower prior to using in a pen-type liquid vaporizer, please do so.

I'd like to test it and compare to the way I'm doing it.

You have my way. Now give me yours.

I go to the guy and buy what he makes.

I don't go around claiming what he does prevents lipoid pneumonia. At best, I might suggest that some doctors think that there may be a relationship. Some of those doctors would want all who vape to get vaccinated against bacterial pneumonia because of the FAR GREATER chance inhalation of bacteria that forms on the vapor pathways will get into the lungs and cause bacterial pneumonia.

Are you vaccinated?

Vaping is not risk free. It is best considered a risk reduction strategy. If your real fear is that you might someday have COPD and need the rolling oxygen tank scooter, I might suggest you give up taking anything through the lungs. You have a greater risk from vaping anything than you do for the difference between vaping winterized and vaping with lipids and other plant material in regards to pneumonia.

 

[Pressisbest]

I go to the guy and buy what he makes.

Well, that tells me a lot.

 

[Tranquility]

Well, that tells me a lot.

It should only tell you that I don't commit felonies in my state for imaginary purposes.

 

[Pressisbest]

It should only tell you that I don't commit felonies in my state for imaginary purposes.

Right. Got it.

 

[Tranquility]

Right. Got it.

It pleases me you "got" at least some part of the conversation as winterizing a squish is not really cutting edge tek.

Some might complain about adding solvent to a solventless extraction, while others might complain about a loss of terpenes. I am not so sophisticated to really care; although believe in the entourage effect of terpenes at least in me.

But, back to my only real point, do you have a basis for your belief that winterizing under your method prevents LP?

 

[shredder]

I looked up lipid pneumonia and found it is rare. And I know cannabis has been consumed for centuries, and I assume smoked for at least hundreds of years. If plant waxes or other plant materials are bad for us, you'd think we'd have heard something on this before.

I assume there are plant waxes in tobacco, ever hear of it being a problem?

What I do think is bad is the pesticides that are concentrated along with cannabinoids. I know, cause I grow my own, what goes in and on my plants. And I find winterizing organically grown rosin, degrades a natural product that is safe on its own. Winterizing herb that has pesticides does concentrate them as well.

I value rosin for both taste and medical effect. Imho Winterized rosin degrades both. I know you can add back in terpenes, but then again that's not natural either. I do think mj terpenes have a lot of medical benefits and that out weighs any wax concern I might have, but I'll stick to the terpenes my plants provide.

If I were concerned, and I'm not, (again I grow my own) I'd press my rosin in fine mesh bags to catch a good deal of plant waxes. Or just stop vaping and eat my meds.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

... I'd press my rosin in fine mesh bags to catch a good deal of plant waxes ...

what size mesh would you use to strain the waxes?

 

[shredder]

what size mesh would you use to strain the waxes?

Good question! I know of bags that filter down to 25 microns, but idk what's best.

On my pressed bags (160-220 microns) I strip them with 99% iso alcohol, then winterize with 94% ethanol. I get at least 50% if not more plant waxes from rosin in and on the bags.

I doubt that size mesh stops wax tho. Maybe it sticks more to the plant material? Or maybe rosin with lots of wax doesn't move well during the squeeze? Just guessing here.

Rosin I've winterized for cannacaps has much less plant waxes. I thought I'd get a lot of plant waxes in the rosin like the bags, but when I did winterize rosin it was much less than from the squeezed bags.

This is of course is anadotal, just things I've noticed, but I can see the bags do retain some waxes in greater amounts than the actual squeezed and harvested rosin.

 

[psychonaut]

The fats, lipids and waxes are the heavier of the oils, and I would guess more viscous material. I too am unsure when those can get filtered out, this was discussed on hash church a couple of weeks ago and apparently it's unavoidable in rosin because of the melting. The best you can hope for is pure trichome heads, 6-star hash. This will still contain some of those fats and such but to a much smaller degree.

I have been taking the approach of using a lower temp on my nail for dabs and whatever is swabbed up I presume is mostly fats, lipids and waxes. I still get plenty medicated. So I am dealing with the fats on the back-end. I dont think they are vaporizing much on my enail set at 580F. I do know the vapor is a lot smoother like breathing fresh air almost

 

[biohacker]

Since I don't use e-nails, and prefer to dab convection style, I wonder if the degummed hemp fiber traps any of these waxes/parafins etc.? I have never had a smoother experience, and get enail like effects and vapour density. I feel it's the healthiest way to enjoy concentrates, as they are somewhat 'FILTERED' with the hemp fibe. Also much more efficient IMO.

 

[shredder]

Since I don't use e-nails, and prefer to dab convection style, I wonder if the degummed hemp fiber traps any of these waxes/parafins etc.? I have never had a smoother experience, and get enail like effects and vapour density. I feel it's the healthiest way to enjoy concentrates, as they are somewhat 'FILTERED' with the hemp fibe. Also much more efficient IMO.

I doubt hemp fiber would be stable in enail temps, I've seen it blacken at lower temps. A wire mesh might though. My guess is they would trap some plant waxes.

I guess I don't get the harm of plant waxes. As I understand plant waxes can harbor solvents, but with solventless rosin idk of any danger. Am I missing something?

My smoothest experiences are with concentrates at low temps in a sic dish. My mighty with a wire mesh does well, and is convenient, but in no way better tasting or smoother than my enail.

As far as the "healthiest" way to use concentrates, I'd say eating them is the healthiest, over vaping.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

i don't know how bad it really is ...

from Wikipedia:

Lipid pneumonia or lipoid pneumonia is a specific form of lung inflammation (pneumonia) that develops when lipids enter the bronchial tree. The disorder is sometimes called cholesterol pneumonia in cases where that lipid is a factor.

and:

When present, symptoms are usually mild. Lipoid pneumonia usually presents with chronic cough, sometimes productive, and dyspnea. Less common problems include chest pain, hemoptysis, weight loss, and intermittent fever.

i suppose there will always be some lipids in the vapor, even from the herb ... however, it must be much more concentrated in a rosin ... i know my QWET yields just shy of 10%, without too much lipids extracted ... so i guess the extra 15% - when getting 25% yield - must be the lipids, no?

anybody winterize their squish? and compare the weights before and after?

 

[shredder]

i don't know how bad it really is ...

from Wikipedia:


and:



i suppose there will always be some lipids in the vapor, even from the herb ... however, it must be much more concentrated in a rosin ... i know my QWET yields just shy of 10%, without too much lipids extracted ... so i guess the extra 15% - when getting 25% yield - must be the lipids, no?

anybody winterize their squish? and compare the weights before and after?

I don't know if it's a problem either. And I looked hard.

There are a few cases of lipid pneumonia from ecigs, that was blamed on the ingredients. And from people who work in an environment that has oil in the air, like breathing compressed air like professional divers might do. And some from inhaling essential oils, that most likely is from carrier oils rather than the essential oils themselves.

As a group with a vested interest, you'd think we would know more, but there really isn't much out there as far as vaping concentrated mj in oil form and lipid pneumonia. And I've never heard of anyone that vapes rosin or bho, or any other concentrate coming down with lipid pneumonia.

As far as what type of concentrate is better as it relates to lipids in the concentrate, I can't find any evidence at all. Our anadotal observances arnt evidence in any sense. However it does stand to reason that winterizing does take waxes out. But I can't say if that's safer, and it doesn't taste as good as un winterized rosin as winterizing strips out terpenes.

With as many people now days that are vaping concentrates, you'd think you'd hear more if it was a real problem. But that is only my opinion, not evidence.

 

[ELEV8]

I just had some RSO shatter from the store that says it has pesticides on the packaging. Im pretty new to dabbing so im not sure if all dabs have pesticides or what? The pesticides in it are Zerotol 2.0, Trilogy Neem Oil and Clonex.

 

[mc]

I just had some RSO shatter from the store that says it has pesticides on the packaging. Im pretty new to dabbing so im not sure if all dabs have pesticides or what? The pesticides in it are Zerotol 2.0, Trilogy Neem Oil and Clonex.

Is it very dark? You don't normally vape or dab RSO, it's for oral treatment.

 

[biohacker]

Is there a thread "you can't trust flowers these days"?

 

[clukx]

Is there a thread "you can't trust flowers these days"?

you can't trust 98% of mmj companies some of them are lying and dishonest just by misinformation, the rest are just trying to flex for Instagram

 

[ELEV8]

Is it very dark? You don't normally vape or dab RSO, it's for oral treatment.

It was this stuff, it's not too dark: https://weedmaps.com/brands/rsogo/concentrates/shatter/rsogo-rso-shatter

 

[mc]

so it's QW-GA, or RSO-GA? I think they may be using RSO incorrectly here. Maybe just to give him some sort of credit?

 

[Silver420Surfer]

I just had some RSO shatter from the store that says it has pesticides on the packaging. Im pretty new to dabbing so im not sure if all dabs have pesticides or what? The pesticides in it are Zerotol 2.0, Trilogy Neem Oil and Clonex.

Clonex (rooting gel)is used during the plant cloning process. Used it before for tom plants myself. EPA says safe for food plants and medicinal.

ZeroTol 2.0 is a broad-spectrum bactericide/fungicide that works on contact to kill plant pathogens(ex. botrytis, powdery mildew, xanthomonas). I linked the safety data for you to decide if good or not for you.

Trilogy neem oil is another fungicide/miticide/insecticide, pretty commonly used, but it is systemic. If used in flowering stage...idk if I'd want to vape the flower. I remember some talk of neem as a spermicide and pregnant rats aborting fetuses due to it but don't remember enough on that to talk intelligently.

Hope that helps