WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?

[nihil]

Thanks for the clarifications @nihil . Some of what you mention about my posts above is over-simplification, and some - admittedly - is generalization.

The 3 day "waiting period" isn't really a waiting period. The way it works is the FBI has up to 3 business days to complete the background check. It could be completed in minutes. Especially if you buy guns regularly and frequently. From what I understand (from people who have a bunch of guns and buy new a couple times a year, not from gun control side), if you are already cleared in their system they just do a quick check on you. The guy I mentioned above (who isn't even really legal!), usually goes into a cool little gun shop around here, picks his new gun, goes to get some lunch and run errands, and is able to pick it up when he gets back an hour or two later. From what I've heard, this is something straw purchasers are pleased as punch about! Some states have longer restrictions (though I think CA's 10 cool off period was thrown out by Federal Court) that actually are waiting periods, but this has failed to be passed at the national level for years.

There's a whole different part of this I've not included for the sake of brevity (yeah I know, but trying to keep it as short and simple as I can!). Gun sales between individuals or at most gun shows require no background check, and often are exempt from state mandated waiting periods. But, this is another can of worms with this issue I'd rather not open up now so I don't have to type so much, and more may be likely to read through my lengthy posts in this thread.

On the Russian manufactured guns... yes Obama did put sanctions on them along with doing a few other things last year in what IIRC was his second or third round against Russia in response to the Ukraine incursion. I've heard much ballyhoo about this being him showing his true "gun illegalizing" colors from local gun nuts (not to be confused with most gun owners), but there is a good bit more to it than that. When I was looking this up last fall to respond to some of these folks, I found it very interesting that there was little comment about this from the NRA - though a ton of crap on many conservative blogs. Wasn't really too surprised! See my comments above about NRA execs and board members who have close ties, or are themselves, part of the US gun industry. Am sure many of them think this is the greatest thing he's done in his presidency. Well... other than get elected which allowed for more fear-mongering than they ever dreamed possible.

Colt was destined to fall and anyone should have seen it coming. Their weapons have fallen out of vogue with most private gun owners for some time, and their lucrative US military contracts have been shrinking for years. I think they have also had troubles because they haven't kept up with many of the recent manufacturing changes other companies have. But, the fact remains that most US manufacturers have seen steady solid growth in sales and profits over the past few years.

On the suicide thing, I totally get what you are saying. And, honestly appreciate the somewhat twisted viewpoint. I try not to delve too far into that part of my personality in a public forum such as this, though. And, much more fun with a small group of likewise sick friends anyway. But, I think handguns are still the method used in more than half of them. Many of these people may have still committed suicide, but I have a feeling not all - or even most. Keep in mind that most of these people don't go get a gun to shoot themselves. They already have a gun. Don't want to go too far down this dark path, but imagine being depressed and suicidal and knowing the instant way to actually do it is sitting right there in the drawer next to you. I think it is safe to say at least a few of these people wouldn't follow through if that weren't the case.

I'd have to go look up the stats (and will if you like), but IIRC owning a gun - legally that is - increases the possibility of suicide in your household by 300% - 400% - be that yourself, your wife or your kid. A little more scary when you look at it in this direction IMO.

Yes, I did simplify a few things as well as generalize, my apologies. Good info regarding the background checks, thank you for that.

Regarding the Executive Orders, there has been a lot of chatter about it in the AKM world, not just conservative blogs. A lot of collectors and enthusiasts were pretty upset. A Russian made AKM is kind of the holy grail to some of us.

Personally, I'm disappointed by it, but on the other hand I feel that it was a necessary evil with regards to the situation in Ukraine (and Syria if you go that route). The real test of this EO would be if it is repealed if/when Russia comes into compliance. My problem with legislation like this is that once it is in place, it never seems to be redacted (a great example of this would be Chinese manufactured firearms & magazines).

Obama has been pretty open on his viewpoints, and I think that is what scares most of the gun nuts. I actually respect the fact that he has been open about it, and enjoy watching the panic from the sidelines.

Strawman purchasing needs to stop, but I'm not convinced the "gun-show loophole" is the proper way to do it. I'd rather see something put in place that states if you sell more than say 5 guns per year you're going to need an FFL. Kind of like reporting on your taxes for consulting work (once it exceeds a defined amount, you have to report it). Where I'm coming from is pretty libertarian.. I don't want to fill out paperwork for a private sale. Firearms are not tracked and registered like cars, and until they are, I should be able to transfer personal property. I know a lot of people have issue with this, but it is the current state of affairs.

I'll skip over the suicide discussions.

I'll also skip over the Colt rebuttal and concede that point to you. On reflection, I think my thought process was that the gun market is very ebb-and-flow. Colt is still regarded as an excellent, although over priced, rifle in the AR world for what it's worth.

Lastly, to all the non Americans reading this, yes, we have very odd laws here. If anyone wants to add to the confusion, we can start talking 922r compliance next.

 

[Amoreena]

This seems like an appropriate contribution.

 

[CarolKing]

This guy wanted to commit suicide so he chose the way where he could take out as many people as possible. He had been radicalized from his trip to the Middle East so he was able to aide whatever evil cause. It says he used marijuana heavily and other drugs which may have had an opposite effect on his depression. Some folks cannabis helps and some not.

It's true he could have made a homemade device like s pressure cooker with nails and other metal to hurt as a bomb.

It's just too easy for anyone to acquire a gun and it varies from state to state. There needs to be a national gun law. Same with cannabis the same law for everyone.

CNN newsfeed
As the country mourns the deaths of five service members gunned down Thursday in Tennessee, investigators in both the United States and Jordan are trying to learn what prompted the attack.

Abdulazeez first shot up a military recruiting center at a Chattanooga strip mall, then drove to a local Navy operations support center and launched another attack, killing four Marines and a sailor. Abdulazeez died in a gunfight with law enforcement.

New details have emerged over the past few days. Among them:

• Abdulazeez suffered from depression and “was not the son we knew and loved,” his family said in a statement over the weekend. “We extend our deepest sympathies and condolences to the families of the honorable service members and police officers who were victims of the shooting our son committed on Thursday.” A police officer was among the wounded.

• The family has also told investigators that the 24-year-old had been abusing drugs for some time, according to a source familiar with the family’s interviews with investigators. The drugs reportedly included “party drugs” and marijuana. Petty, Abdulazeez’s friend, told CNN that his buddy had a drug problem and used marijuana heavily, to the point that his parents were constantly calling to check on his whereabouts.

 

[gangababa]

Posted without comment

"Sovereign citizen’ arrested after twice trying to grab one of six loaded guns in his Confederate flag car"


"Police Investigating Man's Death Find More Than 1,200 Guns, 2 Tons Ammo"

 

[flotntoke]

Posted without comment

"Sovereign citizen’ arrested after twice trying to grab one of six loaded guns in his Confederate flag car"


"Police Investigating Man's Death Find More Than 1,200 Guns, 2 Tons Ammo"

Thanks! Both interesting stories. I kind of figure the guy with 1,200 guns acquired most (if not all) legally. Seems a little obsessive and think those types more likely to stay legal. Plus, legal is usually cheaper and when you're going for quantity cheaper can be very important.

This other guy though..... Love these sovereign citizen types! Good friend of mine has been spouting this BS for years now. Funny thing is, he seldom if ever knows what he's talking about. Most others I've talked with are generally the same. Can only imagine how this must've gone down, but lucky he wasn't shot a few times. Best part was his grandmother's quote at the end!

 

[Tommy10]

I am an australian, I am a firearms owner, and I am a freedom lover (firearms and MJ are both restricted to astonishing levels here!) and I must say I very much dislike how Australia is used in America as a bastion of gun control and all it's beauty. It is a fallacy, Australia has had a declining violent crime rate for 40+ years now with a consistent trend almost unchanged by the knee jerk buy back (which was verrrryyyy expensive).
Sure we have not had a mass shooting since, but as a culture mass shootings have never been much of a thing and If one happened tomorrow with a black market firearm (Australia has a giant boarder of only sea with the population Perth much in 1 spot... They get in what they please) they would further increase the laws.
The idea that the gun buy back here was a success has been long running in the media, but as times go out much research is pointing to the opposite, yet it is still used as a stand up model.
My personal belief on gun control is irrelevant I just thought it worth noting that for those of you in the states.
Firearms are very hated here Australia has a very urban population, and despite crocodile Dundee Australia is a very left wing country with no major party even coming close to a conservative republican.
In saying that, from what I understand about american gun culture I would suggest that even your average moderate liberal from America is going to have a more relaxed view on gun control than your average australian conservatives (it was our conservative equivalent who did it all!).
It's worth taking a good look at what our laws actually are, they are very draconian and red tape to the point where I am almost ready to give up my hobbies in that area as the state has a deep seeded hatred of anything firearm and make your life miserable.
Jon Oliver and such who hold up the Australian model of gun control as the way are walking a dangerous path.


Edit to add: in general, any american or even Canadian thinking to migrate to Australia should probably look into the legalities of their hobbies/lifestyle choices/financial aspects Australia is the nanny state and you may find that what you enjoy may not be possible here. There are obvious ones but I'd imagine most aspect of Australian life would come with more government control,

 

[CarolKing]

It's too bad we live in an era where we have to have training excercizes for active shooters. We have done this in our building at work. I've noticed in the news that it's something that they do all over the country. After the Columbine HS shooting the mass murders have escalated. You are a sitting duck under your desk, sometimes there aren't many places to run. Running is your best bet to be able to survive.

Maybe there needs to be an FC thread "How To Survive A Shooting"

The guy in the recent LA theater shooting Thurs. John Houser bought his gun legally.

It didn't look like he wanted to commit suicide either. He had planned to get away, but killed himself. Luckily so far only 2 people were killed, others are injured.

EDIT
He had a history of mental illness but was able to get a gun with no problem.

It's like folks are getting calloused to the weekly mass shootings here in America. I can't understand why more people aren't outraged. It seems like almost everybody drank the kool aide.

 

[Joel W.]

Snipped from the full story,

Authorities have arrested the Marysville Pilchuck high school shooter's father on weapons charges. It was his gun that 15-year-old Jaylen Fryberg used to shoot and kill four friends and wound another last October.

Raymond Fryberg was under a permanent protection order from Tulalip Tribal Court after Raymond's then-girlfriend claimed in 2002 that he had threatened and assaulted her.

In 2012, Raymond pleaded no contest after being charged with violating the order and was sentenced to a year of probation.

As part of the protection order, Raymond was not allowed to purchase firearms. But the court documents reveal that he purchased five firearms from a Cabela's store in Tulalip, Wash., between January 2013 and July 2014. When he purchased the guns, he falsely indicated on the purchasing agreement that he was not under a protection order.

Statement from Cabela's:

"Cabela's strictly complies with federal, state and local laws regulating the sale of firearms. Cabela's records indicate the transaction was processed in compliance with applicable regulations, including background checks."

From another link:
“At the time of the purchase, [Raymond] Fryberg was the subject of a permanent protection order that prohibits him from possessing firearms,” according to a Department of Justice news release. The complaint alleges that he lied on the instant background-check form when he bought the handgun.

At the time, according to federal prosecutors, he signed a document acknowledging he was not supposed to have a firearm.

However, that restraining order would not have shown up when Cabela’s contacted the FBI to conduct an instant background check when Raymond Fryberg purchased the weapon, because it was apparently never entered into the state or national databases on which those background checks rely, said Heather Anderson, the section chief of the Washington State Patrol’s Criminal Records Division.

Anderson said that, at the time, such reporting was “very encouraged” but not mandated and likely would have been done through the Snohomish County Sheriff’s Office.

Tribal spokeswoman Francesca Hillery said it was her understanding that there was “no protocol at the time for ensuring that information was passed on to the national databases.”

 

[CarolKing]

It's not just gun control its nut cases with guns. Another shooting at Umquah Community College in Roseberg OR. At this point 10 people are killed. Seven more people are injured.
I can't believe some of the things you can buy at a gun show. It makes me angry. It's unacceptable to me in our society. What in the hell is going on!!!!!!!!!

There seems to be a high rate of shootings at American schools. Why?


Before going into spinal surgery, Anastasia Boylan told her father and brother the gunman entered her classroom firing. The professor in the classroom was shot point blank. Others were hit, she told her family.

Everyone in the classroom dropped to the ground.

The gunman, while reloading his handgun, ordered the students to stand up if they were Christians, Boylan told her family.

"And they would stand up and he said, 'Good, because you're a Christian, you're going to see God in just about one second,'" Boylan's father, Stacy, told CNN, relaying her account.

"And then he shot and killed them."

EDIT
Ever since Columbine it's been one shooting after another. I don't want the media to keep talking about it. It seems to fuel other crazy people. It gives insane people ideas.

 

[OF]

As part of the protection order, Raymond was not allowed to purchase firearms. But the court documents reveal that he purchased five firearms from a Cabela's store in Tulalip, Wash., between January 2013 and July 2014. When he purchased the guns, he falsely indicated on the purchasing agreement that he was not under a protection order.

Also please note his Lawyer is claiming he didn't know about the Restraining Order, that's important I think?

And while an issue to be resolved in due time, it's a distraction/scam WRT the bigger issue here I think. He didn't shoot anyone, it's the brain damaged kid that's the problem. In a world full of easy to buy coke and smack and other drugs who thinks it's hard to get a gun from uncontrolled sources? Let's see some hands.......

I think we should also consider the media here, they make mass murders role models for the next loser that ends up wrecking so many lives. I kinda like the Cop in the latest news conference on the latest shooting (CK mentioned above) with is 'I'm not going to speak his name, you can get it other places, but please don't publish it.......let us agree to deny him fame, never mention his name again?'. It might change the equation a bit if the cowards know most won't know your name after the deed and those few that do will respond 'isn't that that asshole that murdered all those innocent people?'.

Think about it, how many bad guys go through background checks? If the father had known of the prohibition on his buying a gun do you think he would have gone to Cablea's? I sure don't. It's a simple truism that drug dealers already skirt the law and know the black market better than most. And, of course, hot guns are cheaper to buy.....and no sales tax. Or simply steal one as this kid did?

OF

 

[howie105]

So can we come up with some new approaches that aren’t redressed old approaches? Not knocking anyone here just looking for a workable solution because the ones we have seen so far aren’t cutting it. Just hoping to be mellow and insightful.

 

[OF]

So can we come up with some new approaches that aren’t redressed old approaches? Not knocking anyone here just looking for a workable solution because the ones we have seen so far aren’t cutting it. Just hoping to be mellow and insightful.

Excellent point. I think there is a solution, nothing new but rather old?

It's not simple, we have to change a lot. We have to get back to teaching responsibility to future citizens as early as they can understand it. Forget being special, make them solid citizens first. Your responsibility to not wantonly kill people because you can't cope is much more important than self esteem.

Consider in days gone, before we became 'enlightened', nobody locked doors. Nobody worried about a young boy with a .22 out looking for rabbits. Role models wore white hats, they didn't sell drugs or make Rap videos. We had no under cultures that exploited women or children that weren't promptly run out of town. Child abuse/pron could get you lynched.

We traded that all for what?

We'd need to fix a lot I fear. One thing for sure taking other peoples rights away is not the right thing to do, even if it works which is obviously is not.

IMO time to stop blaming law abiding fellow citizens and intimate objects for the moral failure of the few. Trying to take away what a single mother in difficult conditions sees as her best way to protect her family so the elites can feel better for 'doing something' is morally wrong IMO. I have no right to make that call for her.....nor she for me. The solution is not in more gun laws. The 20,000 we have are plenty.....too much many would say.

"It's a bad Craftsman that blames his tools". Let's stop blaming the tools and work on the guy using them?

OF

 

[grokit]

We have so many gun laws, but such lax enforcement of them

 

[OF]

We have so many gun laws, but such lax enforcement of them

I'm not so sure it's lax as much as selective? It depends on who you are and who you know. The 'little guy' gets hammered but Fast and Furious sells the odd couple thousand guns to drug cartels and we get a cover up.

"They" have no trouble at all enforcing gun laws.......when it suit their agenda?

The real issue with more gun laws is, I think, honest folks follow the rules and bad guys don't. We're only disarming the white hats. Is the last gun in town owned by a good guy or bad? Do crooks turn iron in to 'gun buybacks' (assuming they're not already wanted for a crime, which many are)?

Think about it, would you rather shoot up a 'gun free zone' or maybe a gun shop (it happens) or NRA meeting? Bad guys aren't dumb (at least not usually). All predators survive by preying on the weak and staying healthy. A lion with a damaged paw is doomed, like a hawk he has to hunt every day. No disability insurance.

"Foxes prefer rabbits with no claws" as the Germans say.

OF

 

[Crohnie]

I find it strange the mantra from certain segments of the population for the last 7 years has been:

"Obama's going to take our guns!"


When the record is checked, we find that during almost 7 years of being President, the only 2 gun laws Obama signed EXPANDED gun owner's rights. Those pesky facts!

 

[OF]

I find it strange the mantra from certain segments of the population for the last 7 years has been:

"Obama's going to take our guns!"


When the record is checked, we find that during almost 7 years of being President, the only 2 gun laws Obama signed EXPANDED gun owner's rights. Those pesky facts!

Unless, of course, you don't count little things like trying to take already owned guns from Veterans or anyone else he can based on their having someone do their checks writing for them and stuff like that.

Remember, he can't write laws. And Congress is not in the mood to write them for him. The best he can do is rant (and he'd done so 16 times now, every time there's a famous murder he can exploit) and pull BS 'end around' executive moves like making up a rule about Veterans and the guys they now legally own.

You're surely not saying he's pro Second Amendment, are you? Not that I buy into some of the more radical views WRT to what he might do (any more than I buy into the 'Black Lives Matter' folks or think all Muslims are extremists) but he's scolded us many times for owning guns and there's no doubt in my mind what he'd do if he was really king.

I think he's been all too clear where he stands on more restrictive gun laws.

You know he's not happy to sign any relaxation of restrictions. He has to be forced to do so. Just because he hasn't grabbed more guns doesn't mean he wouldn't like to. Badly. He just does what he can with that phone and pen......because Congress is not on his side for the rest?

Implying he's a friend of lawful gun owners is just silly.

OF

 

[Crohnie]

Unless, of course, you don't count little things like trying to take already owned guns from Veterans or anyone else he can based on their having someone do their checks writing for them and stuff like that.

Remember, he can't write laws. And Congress is not in the mood to write them for him. The best he can do is rant (and he'd done so 16 times now, every time there's a famous murder he can exploit) and pull BS 'end around' executive moves like making up a rule about Veterans and the guys they now legally own.

You're surely not saying he's pro Second Amendment, are you? Not that I buy into some of the more radical views WRT to what he might do (any more than I buy into the 'Black Lives Matter' folks or think all Muslims are extremists) but he's scolded us many times for owning guns and there's no doubt in my mind what he'd do if he was really king.

I think he's been all too clear where he stands on more restrictive gun laws.

You know he's not happy to sign any relaxation of restrictions. He has to be forced to do so. Just because he hasn't grabbed more guns doesn't mean he wouldn't like to. Badly. He just does what he can with that phone and pen......because Congress is not on his side for the rest?

Implying he's a friend of lawful gun owners is just silly.

OF

If you actually read my comment, I stated that the only 2 gun laws Obama's signed into law expanded gun rights, nothing more, nothing less. I never implied Obama was pro 2nd Amendment, I merely stated facts.

"Just because he hasn't grabbed more guns..."

Obama hasn't "grabbed" ANY guns. That's the whole point. This "gun grab" narrative is being pushed by a certain demographic, but the facts are indisputable:
Obama hasn't taken away ANYONE'S guns. Period.

 

[CarolKing]

There could be a happy medium to controlling firearms. It was stated that the laws that are in place aren't always followed. That could be changed by having rule and if not adhered to you would lose your ability to sell guns. Who in the hell needs a machine gun type firearm?

Also there needs to be a way of helping families that have children that are mentally ill or are heavily addicted to drugs to get help. There doesn't seem to be much help from the medical field, social agencies and from the police depts when families look for assistance.

I don't see a push in society to help the mentally ill. Some folks are screaming for help and no one is listening. It's not guns alone it's the crazy folks that get a hold of one.

 

[OF]

Obama hasn't taken away ANYONE'S guns. Period.

But he has (in a small way), nothing like he'd like to do, if he only could.

He has made it very clear, 16 times now....... I assume you caught the last time he exploited someone else's fragility to rant again? Nothing he suggests would have effected the event in Oregon, of course. Stuff he opposes might?

Again, Obama is an enemy of legal gun owners. How big a threat each guy can decide for themselves, but he's definitely not in favor of less restrictive laws. That's the facts there.

Need references to the 16 times he's attacked RKBA? I bookmarked a new list the other day........

Pro gun, he ain't.

OF

Edit: Here's a fun exercise, put "Obama tries to ban guns" into Google? For something he's not trying to do there are 3 million hits talking about how he is......

OF

 

[bella]

Comparing the usa with countries like australia is not helpful imo.
All countries are unique and what works in one country may not work in another country. Laws often need to be adapted for different cultures.

I hope that the usa can develop policies that help to stop gun massacres. Those policies, though, need to come from within the usa and be a good cultural fit. The population has to (mostly) agree with the proposals if anything is going to work. Most australians agreed with the introduction of our gun restriction laws and that is why they have worked. Whatever the solution is for the usa, it will need the support of most americans.

 

[kellya86]

As a uk resident your gun control laws seem amazingly stupid to me. You want to give everyone the right to own assault rifles then wonder why you get mass shootings. In the UK, if you want to hunt you can own a shotgun or a semi auto rifle. That's all you need for hunting. Do you guys really go hunting dear with an m16 carbine. Why do yu sell these weapons when they are only made for one reason. Killing humans. Not hunting. How many kids have to die before you accept you are wrong as a country to allow this. You are supposed to be world leaders and trend setters, but all your showing is that you still are a race of uncivilised neanderthals as far as guns go. And diet.
Sorry if this sounded harsh bit it makes me angry that you let this happen, when you are the most powerful country in the world.

 

[1DMF]

It's all about the right to bare arms to defend themselves as a sovereign country against the imperialistic oppressors (GB).

Which was all well and dandy 200 years ago, but its a little out-of-date in today's world.

An English man's home is his castle, but I don't need an AK47 and a rocket launcher to defend it, last time I checked there were no 'Frenchies' with a Trebuchet trying to knock my front door down!

Sometimes the USA's biggest enemy are themselves, I'm not sure I trust the army with weapons, so I sure as hell wouldn't trust Mr Jones @ no. 42!

 

[bella]

@kellya86 i used to get angry too. It's heartbreaking to see so much suffering over and over again. The solution seems so simple in theory, but in practise where would american gun control even start? What would it look like? The usa has an huge population of both people and guns and most citizens don't seem to want to hand in their weapons to the government. It's not like obama can just force people to do so and how would he even go about doing so?

I don't know what the solution is but i don't believe the american population would accept australian-style gun laws and restrictions.

 

[kellya86]

I agree completely with @1DMF. Your average citizen does not need guns. You are not under any foreign threat now. The tables have turned and now you are your own biggest threat. Kind of ironic that the guns you swear by to defend you, are killing your children. Seriously grow the fuck up and look at what's important you ignorant fucks. If you really love guns that much, join a gun Club or participate in organised hunting. Don't keep m16's and ak47s in your house.
@bella I completely understand how har it would be to separate Americans from their weapons. But it has to start somewhere. Saying there is just too many guns and citizens to bother, is a cop out.
You are the most advanced county in the world. Jus ban guns and in 10 years, even if you only half the number of weapons on the street, then it's a success.
On a side note I watched a film about rockstar and grand theft auto, made by BBC, which highlighted how ignorant you yanks are. Too quick to blame something else rather than take responsibility for your own actions.

 

[1DMF]

You are not under any foreign threat now.

Well, some might argue differently and quote 911, but putting that aside, this isn't the only reason I believe.

It's a constitutional right to defend oneself against ANY enemy, which includes those 'powers that be'.

If you had some kind of evil dictator take control and use the army to coral its citizens, they need the ability to stand against such oppression.

Not sure I'd feel safe living next door to someone who I knew had more firepower than the government / army - if that's even possible?

Which I think is the point, the law was created when a musket was all anyone had, so me owning a musket to defend against a musket was fine.

I'd now need a B52 stealth bomber and some nukes to make this constitutional right meaningful in today's world.

If USA think Iran can live without nukes, I'm sure that average Joe can live without his MP5 / Uzi.