What makes cannabis medical?

[little maggie]

It's not an opinion that prescription drugs are one of the leading causes of death in the United States. It's a fact.

And nothing is being hijacked. This is a medical discussion, why we should not be allowed to compare cannabis as medicine to more mainstream western medications, in a thread titled "what makes cannabis medicinal?"[/QUOTE
.

What you're saying is off the point. 1 antidepressants are NOT the leading cause of death in the US and those are the primary drugs people are talking about here. That's a fact. Haven't read any posts about avoiding opiates.
2. No one here is opposed to comparing cannabis to prescription drugs or even expressing cannabis being more helpful to them than prescription drugs.
It's insisting that it's a fact that antidepressants are "bad" and should be avoided. And that's an opinion probably based on personal experience

 

[invertedisdead]

It's insisting that it's a fact that antidepressants are "bad" and should be avoided. And that's an opinion probably based on personal experience

To prescribe a pill with side effects that include worsening depression and increased risk of suicide to a depressed person is a logical fallacy.

Perhaps you are not familiar with Tardive Dysphoria?
"up to 80% of patients maintained on an antidepressant suffer a recurrence of symptoms, and once that “initial treatment response is lost,” continued efforts to treat the relapsed patient with antidepressants frequently results in “poor response and the rise of treatment-resistant depression.” Ultimately, this process—the continual prescribing of antidepressants to someone who has become treatment resistant—may "make the chronic depression permanent.”

What about the conflict of interest which could arise between competitors of a multi-billion dollar industry?
Don't you see a problem with doctors being paid to promote drugs? http://www.businessinsider.com/what-drugs-are-doctors-paid-the-most-to-promote-2015-1 (outdated article but serves its purpose)

 

[CarolKing]

This thread has fallen down the rabbit hole. Keep on subject or make a thread about "the problems with medications and the pharmaceutical companies."

Sometimes too much of a good thing defeats the process. If you use cannabis all day that raises your tolerance and cannabis won't be as effective for what you are treating. We are all different.

 

[little maggie]

I need to stay away from this thread. Just as most of us question negative research on cannabis, there are a lot of people quoting research that is just as spurious. Scientology didn't suddenly stop planting or distorting info. Yes tardive dysphoria is real but 80% of people maintained on antidepressants do not develop it. And the research on this is based on SSRI's- not all antidepressants.
The place I get my medical treatment discourages doctors prescribing the newer antidepressants because they are more expensive. If someone needs a more expensive med they have to be referred to a psychiatrist. And in a few years doctors will be paid a lot to prescribe cannabis. Are you going to view that as conflict of interest?

The main reason I need to avoid this thread is that I'm reacting to the extremism here. Anyone who knows me would say that I am the last person to recommend people take "drugs" before trying other things that have been mentioned including some that haven't like http://eft.mercola.com/
But drugs include cannabis and not just prescriptions. Cannabis helps some people but not everyone and antidepressants do the same. And non drug tools also help a lot of people but not everyone.
I don't want to continue to disagree with your political issues since they have nothing to do with what works and what doesn't work.

 

[invertedisdead]

Keep on subject or make a thread about "the problems with medications and the pharmaceutical companies."

I'm comparing modern pharmaceutical antidepressants to the natural cannabis plant. Antidepressants have side effects which include increased risk of suicide and worsening depression. Cannabis does not. This seems like a fair comparison to me since many on this board use cannabis for mental health. Respectfully, I don't see why I need to make a new thread, when this one has already been purposely created to discuss medical reasons to use cannabis.

And in a few years doctors will be paid a lot to prescribe cannabis. Are you going to view that as conflict of interest?

It looks to be going recreational, so I quite doubt doctors will get paid a lot to prescribe cannabis. Either way, Cannabis has a long history in this country as a medicine prescribed by doctors. Although prohibition did a fantastic job at burying this facet of American history, the evidence still exists...

 

[Flower of empathy]

I get both sides of the pro/anti pharma fractions, it is pretty emotional for ppl who have experience with that - the best thing to deal with that in RL is to be as rational as possible and leave emotions beside, start with treatment of the highest proven chance to work.

My mom was a pharmacist, got breast cancer in the 90s and took a trial 'high dose chemo'. About 10 cancer free years later, she got all kinds of after damage cancer from the 10 times too high dose she got in the 90s (20 years after no one with that chemo was alive). But my mum was never angry or mad bc that treatment, she always said she was happy about 10 years she won - and that took me over a decade to understand afterwards, it can only be understood if viewed rational without emotions.

To get more to topic:
with all that ECS talk, i'm no medic, but i know a lot about system theory and control systems engineering...
So i'm wondering do medic scientists use a similar approach? It seems a pretty complex system with many values - how can anyone say for sure how it reacts? Worst case would be it prevents a chemo from working...
There are possible side effects for cannabis, starting with allergy down to some things that may only occur 1 in 100k or less, it's just not proper researched

Cannabis has a long history in this country as a medicine prescribed by doctors

Back in those days a lot of different 'tinctures' were sold, and often there were more quacks than real docs, not even starting at the knowledge base of that time...
So how much quackery is left nowadays when people claim this particular strain is good for that or that?

 

[C No Ego]

Wow- this thread.... Ok, since being the thread starter I will say that I have only experienced pharma meds a few times and they were pain meds prescribed for an injury... I decided back then because of how they made me sweat and energy levels all over the place etc and paranoia = I just stopped taking them and started seeking alternate medical routes like natural etc or no meds at all.. I've never used anti-depressants T%hank God and do not wish those on anyone...
Like I mentioned in my first few posts I have such direct real life experience with cannabis helping me in my life and all it's facets etc... and this was after deep soul searching and using nothing at all for pain and toughing it out= Screw that! we are on this world and all it offers is yours! take it and do not be afraid- you deeply deserve all you can find here that helps you during your life span of earthly wealth and human abiding consciousness... Live it well and realize you are not alone and need the world in which you abide in to truly experience all this world has to offer...

I get both sides of the pro/anti pharma fractions, it is pretty emotional for ppl who have experience with that - the best thing to deal with that in RL is to be as rational as possible and leave emotions beside, start with treatment of the highest proven chance to work.

My mom was a pharmacist, got breast cancer in the 90s and took a trial 'high dose chemo'. About 10 cancer free years later, she got all kinds of after damage cancer from the 10 times too high dose she got in the 90s (20 years after no one with that chemo was alive). But my mum was never angry or mad bc that treatment, she always said she was happy about 10 years she won - and that took me over a decade to understand afterwards, it can only be understood if viewed rational without emotions.

To get more to topic:
with all that ECS talk, i'm no medic, but i know a lot about system theory and control systems engineering...
So i'm wondering do medic scientists use a similar approach? It seems a pretty complex system with many values - how can anyone say for sure how it reacts? Worst case would be it prevents a chemo from working...
There are possible side effects for cannabis, starting with allergy down to some things that may only occur 1 in 100k or less, it's just not proper researched

Back in those days a lot of different 'tinctures' were sold, and often there were more quacks than real docs, not even starting at the knowledge base of that time...
So how much quackery is left nowadays when people claim this particular strain is good for that or that?

there are two medical schools teaching the ECS now.... the cannabinoids ( human and plant alike) are smaller than microscopic so we have been limited on identifying viable tools to see and understand them.. nuclear emission leaving a plasma residue is how we have identified them so far..

http://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(16)31385-X

https://www.leafly.com/news/science-tech/scientists-solve-structure-receptor-allows-thc-get-high

finding thr biochemical pathways that cannabinoids make in cellular biology actually led to the creation of neuro-science.. we have anandamide to thank for those sciences! we are just starting to really understand the ECS and also why cannabis molecules can act on that important system

 

[zenmasterofzinfandel]

I need to avoid this thread is that I'm reacting to the extremism here. Anyone who knows me would say that I am the last person to recommend people take "drugs" before trying other things that have been mentioned including some that haven't like


http://eft.mercola.com/

^And therein lies the fundamental issue with all cannabis leaning sites, keep quoting quack Drs. like the one you have already posted a thread on, that no one replied to. It is the canna-fringe, cannot change those mindsets, no matter what study is quoted, mis analysed, mis interpreted, misrepresented by lay people who do not understand medicine, medical protocol, how studies are developed, how drugs come to market...all of it, very very poorly informed by the masses of the Canna-fringe society. Give us your weak, you mentally ill, you're addicitive personality, psychologially troulbe individuals, lowest education, income, positions in society, this is the inscription on the canna-fringe internet statue of liberty, lol. You get so many ppl with low-self esteem, trying to feel like they are doing something important on the net by posting on these types of sites.

'Problems with medicines & big pharma', do not need a thread on that, can get that on thousands of websites, not just canna- orientated.

I'm comparing modern pharmaceutical antidepressants to the natural cannabis plant. Antidepressants have side effects which include [a potential] increased risk of suicide and worsening depression. Cannabis does too. This seems like a fair comparison to me since many on this board use cannabis for mental health.

There, fixed to reflect facts, not opinion/feelings. Cannabis can potentially cause fatalities, in doses much smaller than you might think.

Wow- this thread....



there are two medical schools teaching the ECS now.... the cannabinoids

wow...indeed. there are no two medical schools teaching about the ECS now, boggles the mind you think there is.

the cannabinoids
( human and plant alike) are smaller than microscopic so we have been limited on identifying viable tools to see and understand them.. nuclear emission leaving a plasma residue is how we have identified them so far..

Ah, no they are not smaller than microscopic. It is readily apparent you do not understand the most simplistic scientific concepts that many of us learned in grade school science classes. I have college level education in the sciences.
http://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(16)31385-X

https://www.leafly.com/news/science-tech/scientists-solve-structure-receptor-allows-thc-get-high

finding thr biochemical pathways that cannabinoids make in cellular biology actually led to the creation of neuro-science.. we have anandamide to thank for those sciences! we are just starting to really understand the ECS and also why cannabis molecules can act on that important system

Utterly and completely false, where on earth did you glean this morsel of absurdly incorrect information...cana-fringe websites?

 

[C No Ego]

..............................................................................................................
Rather than calling it "recreational", I prefer to call it a "mood lifter/ mood enhancer".
People spend billions on "anti-depressants" which are clearly medical. And what is the opposite of "depressed", that would be "feeling good" which cannabis provides.
That's why I tend to classify 90% of cannabis use as medical, even when the user might just call it recreational. They are using it to help them feel good, to not feel bad or depressed or stressed or anxious or XXX.

And cannabis is proving to be the greatest preventative medicine too. A milligram a day keeps the Dr away

the anti-depressant makers are solely responsible for cannabis being illegal LOL... not really but they are not liking the easy access approach of seed- dirt- water= Sprout

Do you consider all drug use to be medical, then? Why is using Cannabis to get stoned any different than doing the same with Percocet or Xanax? They're both examples of using drugs for recreation. Cannabis being safer doesn't change that fact.

Also, Cannabis isn't "nothing like alcohol". Just because it works differently, and is safer, doesn't mean it's not a drug used to get buzzed.


The difference between prescription antidepressants and Cannabis, is that you don't feel the mood enhancing effects from each dose of Prozac, Lexapro, etc.. You let them build up in your system, and overall have less negative symptoms in your life. When you use Cannabis, you get buzzed.

Also, people use antidepressants when they have chemical imbalances. They are used to balance those issues. Antidepressants are rarely taken to elevate relatively normal levels of chemicals, in an attempt to feel a buzz.

your reference of chemical imbalance or out of chemical balance holds sway with canna chems too yes? phyto-cannabinoids are responsible for intracellular biochemical pathways being made @ the cellular level.. hypothetical question- if a doctor did not know cannabis was the cause would the doc not see that that is a viable approach for adjustments in the persons biology?

 

[invertedisdead]

Cannabis can potentially cause fatalities, in doses much smaller than you might think.

Cite your sources.

 

[invertedisdead]

Back in those days a lot of different 'tinctures' were sold, and often there were more quacks than real docs, not even starting at the knowledge base of that time...

You're talking about "snake-oil"... But the health industry sells more modern phony medicines, diet pills, and supplements today than ever lol. It's a $100+ billion dollar industry. Todays doctors are great at getting another co-pay out of you every two weeks though. I'm so relieved they finally found the cure for a swollen pocketbook.

 

[Flower of empathy]

Todays doctors are great at getting another co-pay out of you every two weeks though

Guess that's somehow influenced by the country u live in, but in general that quote goes against the
hippocratic oath and insults any good doc!

 

[little maggie]

"^And therein lies the fundamental issue with all cannabis leaning sites, keep quoting quack Drs. like the one you have already posted a thread on, that no one replied to"
What thread is that? And yes Mercola might be what you call "quack" but the technique I posted is a pretty established part of psychotherapy. There is more than CBT. What you may be calling fringe someone else might call cutting edge. But I don't know what your point is

 

[invertedisdead]

Guess that's somehow influenced by the country u live in, but in general that quote goes against the
hippocratic oath and insults any good doc!

Hippocrates said "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food" so yes, most doctors don't take his advice or prescribe it.

 

[Flower of empathy]

Hippocrates said "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food" so yes, most doctors don't take his advice or prescribe it.

Don't know what that has to do with the oath... - a doc has to try the best possible PROVEN treatment with least harm, anything else would be irrational and irresponsible

 

[C No Ego]

^And therein lies the fundamental issue with all cannabis leaning sites, keep quoting quack Drs. like the one you have already posted a thread on, that no one replied to. It is the canna-fringe, cannot change those mindsets, no matter what study is quoted, mis analysed, mis interpreted, misrepresented by lay people who do not understand medicine, medical protocol, how studies are developed, how drugs come to market...all of it, very very poorly informed by the masses of the Canna-fringe society. Give us your weak, you mentally ill, you're addicitive personality, psychologially troulbe individuals, lowest education, income, positions in society, this is the inscription on the canna-fringe internet statue of liberty, lol. You get so many ppl with low-self esteem, trying to feel like they are doing something important on the net by posting on these types of sites.

'Problems with medicines & big pharma', do not need a thread on that, can get that on thousands of websites, not just canna- orientated.



There, fixed to reflect facts, not opinion/feelings. Cannabis can potentially cause fatalities, in doses much smaller than you might think.
wow...indeed. there are no two medical schools teaching about the ECS now, boggles the mind you think there is.



Utterly and completely false, where on earth did you glean this morsel of absurdly incorrect information...cana-fringe websites?

um, I did not quite reference that correctly. the crystalline structure of the cannabinoid is beyond microscopic as posted in the link.. I'll get back to you about the schools... thanks for all the compliments!

 

[invertedisdead]

a doc has to try the best possible PROVEN treatment with least harm, anything else would be irrational and irresponsible

Really? Then why do they all recommend chemotherapy

 

[Flower of empathy]

Really? Then why do they all recommend chemotherapy

the best possible PROVEN treatment

Is RSO proven? What doses? or maybe it even prevents chemo from working at some doses bc receptors are blocked? -no study no knowledge

 

[CarolKing]

There is plenty of cannabis out there that might not be as healthy as it should if lots of pesticides are involved in the growing. Another thing is mold, it would be unhealthy to vaporize unhealthy moldy cannabis. Hopefully in the future there will be more testing of our fave plant before it goes out for use.

If you live in an area where you can buy organic I would suggest that. It can be little more price wise but it's worth it for your health.

Healthy cannabis for for all not just for medical users but often they are in a more fragile state medically. They can't be reckless with their health, but healthy folks need to be careful as well.

Keeping track of producers and the right strains that work for you is important so knowing what you are buying, like the name of the strain. Keep notes as to what works for you.

We used to have organic cannabis farmers markets here in WA state. Now that cannabis is legal that's not allowed anymore. CA still has the cannabis farmers markets. You can often find organic cannabis at a market.

@zenmasterofzinfandel try to be nice to our friends here and elsewhere on the forum.

 

[little maggie]

^And therein lies the fundamental issue with all cannabis leaning sites, keep quoting quack Drs. like the one you have already posted a thread on, that no one replied to. It is the canna-fringe, cannot change those mindsets, no matter what study is quoted, mis analysed, mis interpreted, misrepresented by lay people who do not understand medicine, medical protocol, how studies are developed, how drugs come to market...all of it, very very poorly informed by the masses of the Canna-fringe society. Give us your weak, you mentally ill, you're addicitive personality, psychologially troulbe individuals, lowest education, income, positions in society, this is the inscription on the canna-fringe internet statue of liberty, lol. You get so many ppl with low-self esteem, trying to feel like they are doing something important on the net by posting on these types of sites.

'Problems with medicines & big pharma', do not need a thread on that, can get that on thousands of websites, not just canna- orientated.



There, fixed to reflect facts, not opinion/feelings. Cannabis can potentially cause fatalities, in doses much smaller than you might think.
wow...indeed. there are no two medical schools teaching about the ECS now, boggles the mind you think there is.



Utterly and completely false, where on earth did you glean this morsel of absurdly incorrect information...cana-fringe websites?

I have a problem with your judgments about others: First mentioning a thread that as far as I know doesn't exist; taking 1 line of my post out of context; the "canna fringe" and describing those who post on "these sites" with low self esteem, having your mind boggled by someone's post etc and assuming that we don't know how studies are developed which I assume you do. Disagree or share your opinions all you want but the contempt is not necessary.

 

[MinnBobber]

There, fixed to reflect facts, not opinion/feelings. Cannabis can potentially cause fatalities, in doses much smaller than you might think.

.............................................................................................
Now this is a "fringe statement" as cannabis has never caused a single death, with billions of doses of use.
Drinking too much water has caused more deaths than cannabis....and that's a fact Jack

There is some disagreement about what is a lethal dose of cannabis, based on two different studies. One study says 1500 pounds of cannabis is lethal while another says taking 2/3 of your body weight in one sitting would be lethal.
What "small dose" can potentially cause fatalities??

The medical properties of cannabis are truly amazing and more is known every month as studies around the globe progress.

 

[howie105]

One study says 1500 pounds of cannabis is lethal while another says taking 2/3 of your body weight in one sitting would be lethal.

Never vape anything larger then your head.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

Cannabis most definitely can make depression significantly worse for some people. That can be a result of it worsening the feelings themselves, and/or being used as a crutch which can often make symptoms much worse when the high goes away.

What about the fact that it's supposed to ease anxiety/stress, but can also raise both of those things to unbearable levels for some people. There are lots of people who won't use Cannabis because it makes them feel terrible. Does that make it a logical fallacy to prescribe it as a potential treatment for those things? Every drug has different effects on each individual, especially when it comes to psychiatric issues.


As for Cannabis and the ECS... there seems to be an assumption here that Cannabis use balances our ECS. That's not necessarily true. It affects it, obviously, but doesn't necessarily balance it. That would take consistent dosing at a specific amount, in people who have hypoactive EC systems to begin with. Consuming cannabis whenever you want, and getting buzzed from it, is not causing perfect homeostasis. IMO, it's more likely to be putting it into overdrive than balancing it. If you don't have a hypoactive ECS, you are enhancing an already balanced system by ingesting extra Cannabinoids.

Homeostasis doesn't cause a buzz. Depression, euphoria, buzzing sensations, enhanced relaxation, etc., are all signs of being out of homeostasis.

Really? Then why do they all recommend chemotherapy

Because chemotherapy saves lives. There are thousands upon thousands of people who would have died without chemotherapy.

The modern medicine hate on this forum is ridiculous.

 

[Flower of empathy]

cannabis has never caused a single death

it is the most probable cause in this case
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24598271

There is some disagreement about what is a lethal dose of cannabis, based on two different studies. One study says 1500 pounds of cannabis is lethal while another says taking 2/3 of your body weight in one sitting would be lethal.

there are more than 2 studies with different values and even more disagreement - the latest study i found claims the LD50 (=50% die at the dose) is 2g pure thc (for a 150 pound human) but it doesn't say with which delivery method...
So are there more reliable studies about that? Ingestion and smoking/vaping should have different doses too

 

[Squiby]

there are more than 2 studies with different values and even more disagreement - the latest study i found claims the LD50 (=50% die at the dose) is 2g pure thc (for a 150 pound human) but it doesn't say with which delivery method...
So are there more reliable studies about that? Ingestion and smoking/vaping should have different doses too

Even though there are varying amounts quoted, they are all beyond extreme doses and would be near impossible to administer. I guess you could ingest the 2 grams of THC orally or as a suppository, but any other method would surely result in loss of consciousness long before reaching a danger point.

I mean, how much bud would be required to produce 2 grams of pure HTC anyway?