Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

Alexis

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't be surprised. I can imagine tarred up lungs having more trouble functioning at any level, compared to healthy ones.
I'm thinking also it just came to me- the cillia specifically. Maybe vaporized cannabinoid absorption and transference, depends more than smoke, or at least significantly, upon healthy cillia structure and function?

It suddenly seems so plausible and logical to me.
 

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
Nice, thorough post. I'll clarify each of your paragraphs, in order, for the sake of easy reading.

1. Perhaps, "just" isn't the best term, as I do agree that there would be some cannabinoids that are not released, as well as some that may even be destroyed by higher temps. "Mainly" or "predominantly" would have been better options.

2. It may be subjective, but if a lot of people feel that way, there may be something else to it that's worth looking into, or at least discussing.

3 & 4. I was referring to just vaping at a lower temperature, without stepping up to reach the higher ones. If you step up in the same session, I would imagine you'd get a very similar overall dose of cannabinoids, with some more "terpy" tasting hits at the lower temps.

5. I wasn't even counting combustion, because of the byproducts that are produced, which definitely modify the effects. I agree with your points, here.

Thanks.

If you stay at a particular lower temperature, the overall effect in terms of "high" will definitely differ. Because euphoriants are released in higher proportions as the temperature rises, your original premise is probably correct, subjective opinions notwithstanding.

I mentioned combustion because later posts brought it up.
 

EverythingsHazy

Well-Known Member
I'm thinking also it just came to me- the cillia specifically. Maybe vaporized cannabinoid absorption and transference, depends more than smoke, or at least significantly, upon healthy cillia structure and function?

It suddenly seems so plausible and logical to me.
Cigarette smoke is definitely bad for our lung cilia. Apparently, the smoke can lead to reduced cilia length, which can negatively impact their ability to clear mucus. I wonder if this reduced cilia length has something to do with smokers not getting as high when they first vape. That period that everyone mentions, where they should "stop smoking for a few weeks to get the full vaporization effect" might be related to this phenomenon. Perhaps, cilia regeneration is necessary.
Healthy smokers with normal lung function and normal chest X-rays are at significant risk for respiratory tract infections, chronic obstructive lung disease and bronchogenic carcinoma. Fundamental to these risks are the observations that cigarette smoking is associated with a decrease in mucociliary clearance, a process driven by ciliated airway epithelial cells functioning in a coordinated fashion to move airway surface fluid and mucus in a cephalad fashion, thus continually cleansing the respiratory surface of inhaled particulates. Prior reports have attributed the smoking-related decrease in mucociliary clearance to a decrease in numbers of ciliated cells, changes in cilia structure and/or beat frequency. While these mechanisms likely contribute to the smoking-induced dysfunction in mucociliary clearance, the present study documents a new concept to help explain decreased mucociliary clearance, that smoking is associated with an average shortening of airway epithelial cilia. Independent of the methodology used to assess airway epithelial cilia length in normal smokers compared to nonsmokers, the results consistently demonstrate that, on average, cilia of normal smokers are 10% shorter than those of normal nonsmokers. Based on models of mucociliary clearance, this reduction in cilia length should have a significant influence on mucociliary clearance, and thus is likely to have a significant role in the risk for developing smoking-induced lung disease.

Perhaps of greater significance is the potential implication for individual smokers. As noted in each method of analysis, a significant population of smokers (23 to 50%) exhibited mean cilia lengths that were shorter than the minimum mean cilia length observed for nonsmokers using the same analytical technique. To understand the significance of these data at the level of individual cells, plots of the distribution of cilia lengths observed in hydrated, unfixed cells were plotted for each individual in the study, and the results confirmed that 4 out of 10 smokers had a large fraction of cells (>25%) with cilia shorter than 6 [IMG alt="An external file that holds a picture, illustration, etc.
Object name is pone.0008157.e103.jpg"]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2790614/bin/pone.0008157.e103.jpg[/IMG]m, a length that theoretically might not contribute to mucus flow. The basis for the individual variation among smokers did not correlate with pack-yr history of smokers, so other factors possibly including genetic predisposition may be involved.

 

EverythingsHazy

Well-Known Member
I think it depends on load size. Microloads yes, but with loads of 0.15 or more, I still get plenty medicated at low temps. Low being 360's-370's.
Is the buzz different at those lower temps? I've always gone for 390F as the max before benzene levels increase, though I'm not sure the traditional logic of stopping there for that reason actually checks out.

When water is left out at room temperature, it evaporates, well under it's boiling temperature. Would multiple hits at any high temperature cause benzene and other harmful byproducts of vaporization to be released, anyway, by the time a load is finished? If you vape veed at 90F all of the water will still be extracted, and it will never have hit it's boiling point.
 
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Alexis

Well-Known Member
Cigarette smoke is definitely bad for our lung cilia. Apparently, the smoke can lead to reduced cilia length, which can negatively impact their ability to clear mucus. I wonder if this reduced cilia length has something to do with smokers not getting as high when they first vape. That period that everyone mentions, where they should "stop smoking for a few weeks to get the full vaporization effect" might be related to this phenomenon. Perhaps, cilia regeneration is necessary.
I had in my own head for whatever reason- an estimate of 6-8 weeks total abstinence from actual smoke, for cillia structure and function to be virtually fully restored and healed in most cases.

Oil of oregano would definitely speed up that recovery process, to a fuller level of healing and repair.
 

Siebter

Less soul, more mind
The cilia in our respiratory system take care of particles and the like, they are not responsible for how high we can get.

I think that recommendation to have a t break before trying a vape is a total myth. When I tried the MFLB for the first time I was a pretty heavy smoker and yet it totally got me high on my first attempt. It's all in our head.
 
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Alexis

Well-Known Member
The cilia in our respiratory system take care of particles and the like, they are not responsible for how high we can get.

I think that recommendation to have a t break before trying a vape is a total myth. When I tried the MFLB for the first time I was a pretty heavy smoker and yet it totally got me high on my first attempt. It's all in our head.
Yeah but we all have different heads lol! And different bodies too.

We tend to look at things so black and white, and we often make assumptions and overgeneralise (I never accepted Brian Cox's, Master of the Universe, wrapped up in a nutshell explanation of how the universe was created, Big bang, clever mans, nobel prizes all round of whoops I still gotta brush my teeth, what day is it today Oh it's friday, still gonna die at 90...)

I'm only jesting bro. I get what you are saying about the cillia's primary and essential function.

But every person can have a very different, yet legitimate experience, and this can apply to anything in life.

We have different bodies, biological and emotional tendancies, and needs. And effectively, very different, yet still real, realities.

I mean, I won't rule out for example the idea that maybe in some people, some sort of self, time based lung repair, is a factor when switching and acclimating to vaporization.

I also don't dismiss your suggestion about it being purely a mental thing.

We just don't know so we can only muse and postulate.

I'm sure that lovely clever man Brian Cox with his big Cheshire cat smile could wrap it all up in a nice tidy little package for us lol, with special effects, nice music and all uneven edges trimmed off neatly.

(I'm taking the piss out of him and arrogant man, not you mate, for so preposterpusly pretending to have ANY answers lol!)
 

Siebter

Less soul, more mind
@Alexis – Speculating is always fun and often enough the beginning of understanding things. So I don't look down on that at all, it's totally part of gathering ideas and, hopefully in the end, evidence too. But I am a huge fan of strong evidence and models that work. Models and ideas that explain or even are able to predict things, like the whole Lambda-CDM model or Einsteins theory of relativity, which were able to predict unthinkable stuff like black holes or gravitational waves decades before we were even able to detect them. Speculating by itself does not do that and therefore by itself (for me) is meaningless (still fun though), it becomes interesting only when someone tries to find out how much truth it contains.

While it is certainly true that we have different bodies with different biographies and a whole lot of variation, I don't see any evidence that our cilias work very different from each other. I'm sure even cilia can mutate and thus could work totally different or do something completely else from what we know it does. But that does not seem to happen to an extend that it would explain what we discuss here.

And it also doesn't match my experience, as I said above. I was a really heavy smoker, coughed up tar bricks every morning. That's when the cilia is a bit recovered because we don't smoke when we sleep. During the day I never had to cough, because my cilia was pretty much paralyzed from all the smoke. And yet, when I had my first vape session, I *instantly* knew it was the way to go, because I not only enjoyed the flavor, but it also got me high really nicely too. It worked, although my cilia was toast at that time. So my experience of what the cilia does and what not matches pretty exactly with what I can read about it.

Therefore the „cilia having nothing to do with the high”-model works too good for me to follow your argument – unless there would be some nice evidence of course, for which we always should have open ears for.

I hope that explains why some of my points often seem very black and white. They often are in order to make a conversation possible that does not eventually drown in the puddles of our speculations. That doesn't mean these points are not flexible, they are not even my opinions anyway. Even science itself wouldn't claim to ever have found the absolute truth about anything. It's more like „I have an idea that explains quite a lot, now prove me wrong with a better idea”. The latter part is actually crucial for any kind of scientific research.

People struggling with switching to vaporizers, „not feeling it“ etc. are definitely real phenomenas, and I'm sure there are some physical reasons behind it too. But taking drugs and experiencing them is one of the most subjective things I can come up with – that's what I was referring to when I wrote that it's all in our head. Well, maybe not all. But *a lot*. :-)
 

west-elec

Well-Known Member
My problem with isolating effects with different temperatures is re-vaping AVB. The terps and flavs are almost all gone after that first hit and everything from then on tastes worse and worse. I want every single draw to be an enjoyable experience and re hitting avb to try to get specific effects is a backwards step. Cannabis is so variable genetically that specific profiles can be bred into the plant and the dispensary advises the user in the type of product for a specific result. Only prohibition has made it necessary for people to take their medications into their own hands like you pioneers have been doing. High prices (need for efficiency) and lack of availability of the different strains drives these discussions among user base when breeders should be doing this work. As big pharma get more involved symptom specific genetics will be the norm, but for best medicine patients should demand whole flowers, not extracts.
For me each bowl should be one comfortable hit with full extraction for the best experience, so micro dosing with a powerful vape is the way to go.
 

Oil Sheik

Well-Known Member
Oil Sheik,
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