Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

[kellya86]

Having read through this thread, I find myself yet again wondering about something. I've searched this question before, but all answers/ discussions that arise seem a bit too 'anecdotal' for my liking, so perhaps we could discuss it here (there's a couple older threads on FC about this topic, but I think you guys in this thread could perhaps shed some light too). So here goes:

I'm questioning the whole 'vaporising decarboxylates THCa' thing. Now obviously vaporising does decarboxylate THCa into THC, because our avb edibles/tinctures work. But what I've wondered for a while, is just how much THCa in our herbs is decarboxylated, and how much is actually vaporised intact (as THCa). I'm assuming that THCa can in fact be vaporised intact, because the literature gives the boiling points of THCa, CBDa, CBGa, and all other acid forms of cannabinoids.

There seems to be a running 'myth', that any heat causes all THCa to convert to THC, it's almost accepted that our vaporisers do this. But I believe the 'vape-signature' that some of us experience can be attributed to the way in which our vapes heat the herb:

A conduction based vape such as the pax takes time to warm up the material, so there is a heating curve over time, which I would expect to convert more THCa to THC, before actually reaching vaporisation temperatures.

A convection based vape on the other hand (such as the E-nano), hits the herb in one punch with full vaporisation temps, which I would expect would flash vaporise THCa, CBDa etc without giving them a chance to decarboxylate into their more active forms.

In my experience, I find that even though I produce insane clouds with my enano, I can get significantly higher with my mflb with the same amount of herb, just over a longer amount of time.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm planning on trying to experiment with my EQ and mess around with different temps etc, get some different samples of the same strain ran through at different temps, and then subjectively try them all and record the results.

Also, to those in medical areas, what do your lab results say for your medicine- do they specify THC AND THCa levels, or do they count THCa along with the THC?

Jeez, I'm rambling and I'm sorry- I hope I've made some sort of sense.

I hope someone can shed some light on this subject.

Peace

See I find that my eq get's me much higher than my solo or flowermate....

So that doesn't fit your theory....

I'm not saying your wrong, just that it doesn't seem to be the case for me...

I am interested to know more on this....

 

[herbalist33]

See I find that my eq get's me much higher than my solo or flowermate....

So that doesn't fit your theory....

I'm not saying your wrong, just that it doesn't seem to be the case for me...

I am interested to know more on this....

See, I'd actually say that your experience does fit my theory (and I also find the same with my EQ btw), but I guess it depends on how you use your EQ.

I got into the habit when I first got my EQ, of just going for thick bags of vapor, so hitting it straight to around 210c. This would hit me, but also caused me throat irritation, so I pretty much abandoned my EQ and only used it when I had company. Having read this thread, I decided to try temp stepping from 160c (expecting very minimal effects at 160, but actually getting a very very nice high). Now when using the EQ like this, I am getting absolutely blazed off very minimal amounts of herb, way higher than when I was using it initially at high temps. Il do a bag, then about 30min later il up the temp by 20c and have another bag. Doing it this way, I expect that the THCa is decarboxylating whilst sat in the cyclone bowl (or elbow). This also could attribute the need/preference to 'heat-soak' the herb before filling a bag.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, how do you use your EQ? If you whack it straight up to ~210c, then I'd expect you to get more THCa and less THC (than if you tempstepped).

The EQ is a special case I suppose, because often the herb is sat right above the heater for extended periods of time, and I'd expect that the heat rising from the heating element is more than enough to start converting THCa.

Peace

 

[TeeJay1952]

I smoked for 30 or 40 years. I never had a bingo hit or loss of consciousness, a slow awareness of where I am but no knowledge of where I been from a toke of a joint. I get that on a regular basis from vaping. It isn't every time. It is unpredictable. It happens with various strains and the same temp settings on my vapes.
The lower I set temp, the dirtier the stem gets. Low temp = Low level evaporation and vapor collects rapidly as it cools. Higher temps = cleaner stems as vapor doesn't cool till it gets in my belly. I get more effect. I have imbibed greater amount of goodies. I do not get a greater preponderance of Bingo Hits. It seems to be the same ratio.
Ahhh the things we do for Science.

 

[kellya86]

I use my eq different.... for a start I use the @DDave mods....

All I do is load about 0.03 into a cold basket, insert into my preheated wand and put into preheated adapter on eq....

Eq is set to 190 or 200 depending on herb...

I wait 30 seconds to a minute for a heat soak, which may be decarbing I suppose, then hit...

Then increase to 210 and go again...

Then it's done....

That's my method....

 

[KeroZen]

@herbalist33 : I find your theory interesting, but unfortunately I also find that my convection vapes get me higher faster and with less material. But, it's bloody hard to quantify and I can't be sure I'm not biased and/or it's not placebo effect.

There's the fact that convection vapes tend to be "full bodied" in their signature, as their temperature regulation is often less precise (and harder to do right due to extra parameters) than digital conduction vapes, so you get more of a temperature swing vs a constant one. I already tried to express it but most convection vapes seem to be "at or above" the set-point while conduction ones tend to be "at or below" the set-point. I have some possible explanations but it's out of the scope of this thread.

Convection also produces bigger and faster clouds, making the initial rush feel stronger. But it's also true that when doing a 15-20 minutes conduction session, with proper temperature stepping, then waiting 5-10 minutes for the onset, you also end up pretty high. One is more instant gratification, but it's hard to compare "high" levels. I mean, how do you quantify how wasted you are?

 

[Baron23]

I can't prove it, I'm not a chemist or lab tech, but my understanding of decarb is the acid bond to the THC molecule is broken by heat.

I believe that as the cannabis warms either from air flow or conductive heating, that the THC-a is decarbed (which people do at about 220-250 F) on its way to the boiling point of the THC (listed as 314 F but this is the boiling point in a pure form and in a vacumn and given that the cannabinoids are in a plant material matrix I suspect its well higher and hence decarb happens before THC vaporization).

Same think in smoking a joint. At that very hot tip, THC-A is being converted to THC right in the middle of the process of combusting. It not as efficient due to the very high temp of the glowing tip actually just destroying some of the THC-A, but decarb conversion takes place in the midst of this process nonetheless.

Just my random thoughts, would love to hear from somebody who has personally examined this process in detail.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

i haven't personally examined this topic yet, but i have seen a chart with different time/temperature combinations and 252°F for 27 minutes provides optimal conversion of THCa to THC-delta 9 (ref: icmag.com and skunkpharmresearch.com)
https://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/

Decarboxylation occurs naturally with time and temperature, as a function of drying, but we can shorten the amount of time required considerably, by adding more heat. The more heat, the faster it occurs, within reasonable ranges, and in fact occurs spontaneously when the material is burned or vaporized.

just now noticed this is for an extract - i wonder how different the parameters are for herb?

i am giving some thought to modifying the Bud Toaster design into a decarboxylation device ... certainly the time and temperature are no problem, just need the right kind/size of glass container, a fan to create the heat envelope around the herb, and a carbon filter for the exhaust air to control smell ... maybe do 1/4 oz at a time.

tl;dr - @herbalist33, i'm interested in this question, too.


Edit to add: i spent some time reading the NOVA pdf about their decarb device and there is a thread in the FC Vaporization Equipment subforum. looks very interesting ... far cheaper than the effort to duplicate what they've already worked out.

 

[Baron23]

i haven't personally examined this topic yet, but i have seen a chart with different time/temperature combinations and 252°F for 27 minutes provides optimal conversion of THCa to THC-delta 9 (ref: icmag.com and skunkpharmresearch.com)
https://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/

just now noticed this is for an extract - i wonder how different the parameters are for herb?

i am giving some thought to modifying the Bud Toaster design into a decarboxylation device ... certainly the time and temperature are no problem, just need the right kind/size of glass container, a fan to create the heat envelope around the herb, and a carbon filter for the exhaust air to control smell ... maybe do 1/4 oz at a time.

tl;dr - @herbalist33, i'm interested in this question, too.


Edit to add: i spent some time reading the NOVA pdf about their decarb device and there is a thread in the FC Vaporization Equipment subforum. looks very interesting ... far cheaper than the effort to duplicate what they've already worked out.

Hi Hippie - I have also seen that chart before, just couldn't put my hands on it right away when posting last. My understanding is that all of these tables on boiling point and decarb are made with pure samples (that is, extract or concentrates if you like) and haven't found much on these temps/times for herb and I suppose there is some difference when the THC is in a plant matrix. Wish I knew this stuff better and with more certainty.

I have had a number of folks tell me that they go for 250 F for 45-50 minutes when decarbing whole ground herb in an oven. Bit pass the optimum point in the chart above in time but perhaps that's a reflection of using whole herb and not an extract.

I note that 292 for 7 minutes peaks even a little higher but wow, miss that time and THC goes downhill quickly.

Thanks for posting this chart again.

Cheers

 

[Hippie Dickie]

@Baron23 - that link to Skunk Pharm indicates that the time/temp is the same for extracts and herb. but butane extract is easier to monitor as the bubble release declines/stops.

 

[herbalist33]

Cool guys, glad we've got a bit of discussion going on with this.

Yes, I've seen that chart before @Hippie Dickie , and it's a good resource for decarboxylating our herb for edibles/tinctures etc. However it doesn't quite touch on what I'm wondering.

I guess an easier way of explaining what I mean would be:

When using a vaporiser, how readily does THCa vaporise intact? Is it more likely to convert to THC and then vaporise, or will it boil off as THCa and then enter your lungs as THCa? This is where I believe there will be variations between different vaporisers due to the manner in which they heat the herbs.

I mean, originally I ran with the supposition that heat=decarboxylation, and so therefore virtually all THCa would be converted to THC through the act of vaporising. However I believe a few pages back someone posted an infographic of cannabinoids (including their acid forms) and their boiling points. So I'm assuming that it is possible for THCa to vaporise without converting to THC.

I'm quite willing to accept that the differences between vapes comes down to the density of hits. I personally find with my convection vapes that even though they produce awesome clouds, great flavour etc, I can hardly say that they get me higher on less herb... I find that those impressive clouds that I blow out contain most of the cannabinoids that were on the plant and which did not make it to my bloodstream. As satisfying as thick clouds feel, when I assess it unbiasedly I find that whispier hits from my mflb or small sips from a bag to get me much higher... But YMMV.

Peace

 

[C No Ego]

Cool guys, glad we've got a bit of discussion going on with this.

Yes, I've seen that chart before @Hippie Dickie , and it's a good resource for decarboxylating our herb for edibles/tinctures etc. However it doesn't quite touch on what I'm wondering.

I guess an easier way of explaining what I mean would be:

When using a vaporiser, how readily does THCa vaporise intact? Is it more likely to convert to THC and then vaporise, or will it boil off as THCa and then enter your lungs as THCa? This is where I believe there will be variations between different vaporisers due to the manner in which they heat the herbs.

I mean, originally I ran with the supposition that heat=decarboxylation, and so therefore virtually all THCa would be converted to THC through the act of vaporising. However I believe a few pages back someone posted an infographic of cannabinoids (including their acid forms) and their boiling points. So I'm assuming that it is possible for THCa to vaporise without converting to THC.

I'm quite willing to accept that the differences between vapes comes down to the density of hits. I personally find with my convection vapes that even though they produce awesome clouds, great flavour etc, I can hardly say that they get me higher on less herb... I find that those impressive clouds that I blow out contain most of the cannabinoids that were on the plant and which did not make it to my bloodstream. As satisfying as thick clouds feel, when I assess it unbiasedly I find that whispier hits from my mflb or small sips from a bag to get me much higher... But YMMV.

Peace

when you first start a vape session the first air draw you pull in will contain the thca molecules in tact. once heat is increased on the draw then the carbon acid is decarboxylated exposing the thc molecule. the first few pulls will be all the terps and flavinoids along with the thca, cbda, etc... if its ground herb in a vape then all the cannabinoids will clump into the center and still contain some thca but the heated air will turn them over quickly while you breathe the vapor in...

with huge vapor hits its best to re breath a hit to re activate receptors via oxygen in your air ways to be able to absorb the compounds better instead of just the first five seconds only... you have capacity to absorb compounds for about 5 seconds and after that fresh oxygen is needed to open up absorption again. hence, the re breathing technique. so, basically you have a lung full of vapor but only what compounds bumps the edges ( lung lining) the first five secs gets absorbed most efficiently and the rest bumps around in there until exhale....

 

[harmless healing]

Wandering if this all applies to just herb or oil as I just found the d nail temp calculator for accurate dish temp to around 10 degrees. Not coil temp. What temp would a concentrate be fully vaprozied at? Actual dish temp. Is this even know or am I going to just science my way through

 

[Krazy]

Very interesting thread. Back in the day my uber genius brain would have supplied much insightful comments! Not so much now with a still smarter than average but "ummm... what?" brain, lol.

Since acquiring a Nova decarb thingie I simply decarb in bulk and vape and cook from the same jar.

 

[cobra505]

Just a newbie throwing in his 2¢
https://www.theweedblog.com/smoking-marijuana-vs-vaporizing-marijuana-infographic/

 

[uhranium]

well the top 10 vaporizers aren't my top 10. but hey.

 

[cobra505]

The main reason I posted it was for the temp reference anyways not for the vape guide. I'm actually starting to experiment with the temps myself. Got real bad breathing issues which makes vaping my only real options. And even with vaping I have a hard time with the higher temps.

 

[looney2nz]

Here's a link for temp references:

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/boiling-point-chart-for-cannabinoids-terpenes.21802/#post-982092

 

[CharonBucephalus]

Nice post - a few months after I bought my 1st vaporizer and I feel like I'm used to it but this is going to really help out! Thanks for putting this together!

 

[cobra505]

cool charts, thanks for the info

 

[Marctraider]

So just curious, isnt it so that the highest possible temp (before combustion ofc) pretty much releases all the possible compounds, whereas going lowest temp on the chart will only release the first lowest and single compound?

And going middle temp will only activate the lowest half of all the compounds?

Or does lets say going maximum temp only activate the few highest compounds?

Which one is it?

 

[C No Ego]

So just curious, isnt it so that the highest possible temp (before combustion ofc) pretty much releases all the possible compounds, whereas going lowest temp on the chart will only release the first lowest and single compound?

And going middle temp will only activate the lowest half of all the compounds?

Or does lets say going maximum temp only activate the few highest compounds?

Which one is it?

well even at the lowest temp the highest activated compounds can and will release but not fully decarboxylate upon the inhale. and even still at the highest temp the lowest released compounds could still remain in the plants fibers depending how deep you vape it out.. Plus, all the cannabinoids clump up together with heat going over them so they combine in a way to make them one part if you will and stick together some changing their heat release temps.

 

[looney2nz]

Ok, in another thread, the question of boiling points of various cannabinoids was raised, so I checked a couple of references, and discovered something... and it's not good

-=-=-=- argh!!!

I just discovered the fly in the ointment, oh my lord is it violently stupid!!!

I cruised through a BUNCH of 'reference sites', almost all these temperature charts are referenced at an incredibly low atmospheric pressure! (it appears to be some kind of Merck standard?)

So it's measured at almost a vacuum!!!
and that shifts the actual boiling points SIGNIFICANTLY - say at sea level...

ALL of this stuff needs to be recalculated, resampled and analyzed and a chart created that shows the actual boiling points at various altitudes. (water boils at a lower temperature when it is at a lower atmospheric pressure) The new chart should also include the temperature range that compounds vaporize at (using sea level as a real world standard)... saw one or two charts in my 'cruise' that showed a percentage of how much THC at various temps, which was useful and informative.

So the graphic chart <snipped> and the text chart <snipped>
showing boiling points are both SEVERELY flawed

It gives -A- reference point, just not a terribly useful one.

So now, I present the audience with a question:
can we get a collaboration of manufacturers and labs to create a NEW reference with relatable temperatures/altitudes, etc.?
I can see where a ton of folks in each legal state (manufacturers and consumers) would be interested in the results of such an endeavor!

http://hightimes.com/grow/what-is-the-real-boiling-point-of-thc/

http://hightimes.com/grow/studying-the-vaporizer-insight-into-proper-vape-use/#disqus_thread

 

[Baron23]

Ok, in another thread, the question of boiling points of various cannabinoids was raised, so I checked a couple of references, and discovered something... and it's not good

-=-=-=- argh!!!

I just discovered the fly in the ointment, oh my lord is it violently stupid!!!

I cruised through a BUNCH of 'reference sites', almost all these temperature charts are referenced at an incredibly low atmospheric pressure! (it appears to be some kind of Merck standard?)

So it's measured at almost a vacuum!!!
and that shifts the actual boiling points SIGNIFICANTLY - say at sea level...

ALL of this stuff needs to be recalculated, resampled and analyzed and a chart created that shows the actual boiling points at various altitudes. (water boils at a lower temperature when it is at a lower atmospheric pressure) The new chart should also include the temperature range that compounds vaporize at (using sea level as a real world standard)... saw one or two charts in my 'cruise' that showed a percentage of how much THC at various temps, which was useful and informative.

So the graphic chart <snipped> and the text chart <snipped>
showing boiling points are both SEVERELY flawed

It gives -A- reference point, just not a terribly useful one.

So now, I present the audience with a question:
can we get a collaboration of manufacturers and labs to create a NEW reference with relatable temperatures/altitudes, etc.?
I can see where a ton of folks in each legal state (manufacturers and consumers) would be interested in the results of such an endeavor!

http://hightimes.com/grow/what-is-the-real-boiling-point-of-thc/

http://hightimes.com/grow/studying-the-vaporizer-insight-into-proper-vape-use/#disqus_thread

Wow, I thought this was well established...yes, pure sample of the substance boiled off in pretty much a vacuum. Now, put the substance of interest in a complex plant matrix with other somewhat volatile substances at normal pressure using a normal vape (which is not a high precision scientific instrument) and my belief is that these tables are not practically useful except except in the broadest terms...i.e. lower temp = more up high and higher temp = more sedative and couch lock and the relative order of the boiling points of the cannabinoids and terpenes. But as a reference for being able to extract a specific substance at a specific temperature...I/m thinking no.

I do not believe it is reasonable to think that we are boiling off very specific cannabinoids at these specific temperatures. I believe that reality on this subject is much more messy.

 

[looney2nz]

Wow, I thought this was well established...yes, pure sample of the substance boiled off in pretty much a vacuum. Now, put the substance of interest in a complex plant matrix with other somewhat volatile substances at normal pressure using a normal vape (which is not a high precision scientific instrument) and my belief is that these tables are not practically useful except except in the broadest terms...i.e. lower temp = more up high and higher temp = more sedative and couch lock and the relative order of the boiling points of the cannabinoids and terpenes. But as a reference for being able to extract a specific substance at a specific temperature...I/m thinking no.

I do not believe it is reasonable to think that we are boiling off very specific cannabinoids at these specific temperatures. I believe that reality on this subject is much more messy.

It's MORE than possible that the past 10 years of fun (pain, ill, sleepless) have caused a brain fart and I just forgot... but I normally pay attention better than that I'll bet dollars to donuts that G&W and others (if they haven't done it already) will do this, but it will likely be proprietary research that we never see.
So it may very well come down to the collective 'us' in some fashion.

 

[AVENTUS]

I live by these principles in this thread !