Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

[dabwild]

With the way North America seems to be rolling out of the stone age when it comes to MJ in general I expect to see a lot of studies involving medical application, quality control etc. with all the potential billions to be made. I for one am extremely pleased that one of the biggest lies created by disgusting greedy business men for profit at great expense in many ways. I look forward to the next 10 years and the exponential growth in knowledge regarding all applications including hemp which has also oddly been banned and then regulated at least in Canada although it cannot get one high. Cool post OP, this is something well worth exploring.

i keep reading about the dangers of high thc and how cannabis has been selectively bred out of the cbd by the fact that prohibition causes the producers to try and maximize product potency for quicker easier and larger profit . im starting to question all of this and heres why .

i have access to quality tested and produced cannabis .
i have tried high thc , very high .
probably could be argued some of the highest thc available on the planet . if over 30% can be considered in that category .
i also have access to high cbd strains of value up to 14% cbd and as low as under 2 % thc .
to my surprise ( probably because of all the hysteria about the dangers of high thc ) i have found that some of the very high thc strains did not cause any paranoia or anxiety , but more of a very relaxing calming effect .
and actually have even experienced some anxiety from the high cbd strains .
i am still experimenting though .
i cant say i havnt ever experienced any anxiety from thc cannabis because i have , or am i claiming that the anxiety is caused by the cbd , because i think i have also experienced the calming effect that is said to be caused by cbd .

as to the theory of the high thc plants being selected only for the high that comes with plants potent in thc . and some how cbd selected out because of no high .
i would counter that people would select the plants because of the qualities that we like weather it be a pleasing smell or color or taste and yes of coarse effects . why would we select plants that make us feel not good ? it doesn't really make sense . i have found that in general the high thc strains have a better flavor experience . perhaps this alone could be why high cbd strains were not picked as often.

also perhaps just more projecting of fear by alarmist who don't understand cannabis because they really have no experience with it and are so worried about the children , and what other people decide to put in there own bodies . that they find fear in it .

i wonder if the anxiety side effect which i dont deny can happen , has to do with set and setting and many other factors . like even knowing that " they " say high thc causes these terrible things like psychosis . making the user of the high thc strain thinks they may get all freak out by the potent cannabis , and then so they are ready to experience it before they even experience it .

as i said i was surprised when i found my self very calm and relaxed after smoking or vaping some bubba kush that was over 30 % thc how could this be lol .
another time after a extreme q bag of sweet skunk cbd around 6 % thc and 9% cbd i found my self feeling pretty anxious .

i realize all of this doesnt have much to do with vaping temps . but it does have to do with effects i was just compelled to write about this because of reading about the high thc dangers again in this thread .

maybe give the cannabis farmers that have had to practices there art of growing in a under ground fashion a little more credit then the people that are still scared of the crazy plant lol

also keep in mind this is just some of my own personnel thoughts and experiences . who knows maybe the next guy jumps out the window after some 30 % bubba

You do realize that there are many concentrates out there in the upper 90's percent thc that people are vaping? I think this is what people are referring to when they say high thc. Even your most potent strains would be quite safe to vaporize, compared to what looks like a piece of light amber and is basically pure thc in crystal form, (think breaking bad but with thc). I am no expert but I believe the liver would probably take issue with too much concentrates as they would put quite a lot of added stress. Which seem pretty much like common sense if you drink beer it will have a mild affect compared to some 190 proof everclear. The difference? Everclear: kills documented - concentrates when abused can probably tax the liver but since no one can prove a death from overdose the main risk would be experiencing the normal affects of thc but intensified. Just like anything in life moderation is key so if you drink everclear like you drink beer your will probably die, just as if you some 99% thc shatter like you smoke a flower you will tax your liver (potential lead to death over time) or a brief uncomfortable experience. Just my thoughts guy.

 

[vorrange]

Of course the purpose of using cannabis is to either feel good or as a medicine, and of course there were strains born out of pure curiosity and experimentation and finding new flavours.

And, to bypass the fact that cannabis potency has rose steadily and fast since the 80s is to not wanting to see the reality of things.

According to this study: http://www.datia.org/datia/resources/potencytrends.pdf, thc concentration in confiscated cannabis in the US rose from 1,8% in 1980 to 3,1% in 1992. But from 92 to 97 it rose 1%...
20 years have gone by... and thc concentration is hovering 15% going up to 20% in some strains.

And it is scientifically shown that THC breeding lowers CBD concentration, and it is also scientifically shown that CBD has neuroprotective effects so CBD counteracts the averse effects felt by some when using or abusing cannabis.

Of course, set and setting is important but we're not talking of psychedelics here... its much less important to warrant a good experience.
And of course, people with latent mental issues are more prone to have adverse effects.

IMO, there is in fact more possibility of something going wrong for you and your health, physical or mental, if you use High THC strains or concentrates.

And surely, it is still a very low possibility compared to other substances, but to deny it is just not wanting to see the evidence.

And you talk about Bubba Kush as an example for your arguments but Bubba Kush is an indica strain which has a higher CBD content NATURALLY.

Have you not met someone who says "Sativas make me ansious" or "Sativas are too stimulating for me" or "I don't do well with weed, i prefer hash" .... These are the anedoctal cases of people who are more sensitive to the High THC, and i know a few among my friends and stoner friends.

 

[KeroZen]

I agree with most of your points, but the tenfold increase in potency has been debunked several times and it's simply not true. The reality is more at most a times 2 or 2.5 increase, with landraces scoring on average between 5 and 10% and hybrids between 10 and 15% with a few exceptions bred for strenght that can go as high as 20% (when properly grown only)

Now there is indeed a clear rise in the potency and purity of extracts of all kind, especially compared to laced street hash (the stuff that scored so low in all these old studies) and compared to poorly grown, dried and cured imported brick weed having spent one year hidden in some damp container...

 

[vorrange]

I'm just 32, but just ask someone who has partaken since the 60's and they'll most likely tell you most cannabis available then was much weaker and had much more seeds in the buds.

Which is another thing that gives potency - seedless strains have more THC compared to their "regular" strains because the plant can focus on strengthening its trichome content instead of also producing seeds.

2x the potency is a lot still... a landrace is a perfect medium to compare with modern strains. If you compare, their ratio of cannabinoids is much more balanced than the ones we have bred since 30 years ago.

Doubling the concentration of a certain compound in a plant is a lot to achieve in 30 years compared to the normal pace at which nature evolves.

But, maybe i'm just a purist and think too often that we don't accomodate for all variables when we manipulate a plant like this.

I don't dab because i don't have access to it but my experience of vaping dark pressed moroccan hash is that the high is much stronger and i take much longer to get back to homeostasis than when using flowers.
I imagine dabbing will be like ten fold in effects comparing to hash.

In the end, you just got to listen to your body and not fall in fundamentalism. But, i still contend it is an error to just ignore the facts and to ignore that we are charting unknow territory and we should be more aware of potential consequences down the line.

 

[pakalolo]

I'm just 32, but just ask someone who has partaken since the 60's and they'll most likely tell you most cannabis available then was much weaker and had much more seeds in the buds.

That would be me.

In the 60s, you got mostly leaf and not much bud, if any. On average, an ounce was about a third stems and seeds. I think this is the major reason for the difference in potency that most people report. When Thai sticks arrived, they blew people away because they were pure bud and no leaf.

We're drifting rather far away from the original topic. This can have it's own thread somewhere if people still want to discuss it.

 

[Mark123]

Am i right, that for example the Arizer Air cant do 160 and 170 C?
I think the devices temperature starts at 180 C and thats nearly the temperature, where the sedating effekt kicks in?

I am asking because i am no fan of the typical Indica stoner high. I prefer the sativa high.
Is it better to get a portable vaporizer, which can also do 160 C to get uplifting effects?!

 

[Winegums]

Am i right, that for example the Arizer Air cant do 160 and 170 C?
I think the devices temperature starts at 180 C and thats nearly the temperature, where the sedating effekt kicks in?

I am asking because i am no fan of the typical Indica stoner high. I prefer the sativa high.
Is it better to get a portable vaporizer, which can also do 160 C to get uplifting effects?!

180°C offers a very uplifting high. It's not until you reach 194-220°C that you'll start feeling more sedative effects.

Of course the strain being used has a lot to do with the effects.

 

[The Stranger]

What @Winegums said. From what I've read, you want to stay in the 320-360 F range for non sedative effects. I'll usually start at 320 for those mouth watering tasty hits and then go straight to 355-360 and stop there.

@vorrange - I was listening to Joe Rogan's podcast with Tommy Chong and Joe asked him that question. He said for the most part weed ha been the same. But who knows.

 

[Mirimi]

So I read the whole thread, I learned a lot from it!

However, there is an error that I saw several times which is the mix up between evaporation and vaporization.
Vaporization is the transformation of a volume of liquid into gas.
Evaporation is the transformation occuring at the surface of the liquid.

Basically, the molecules at the surface of a liquid have fewer chemical bonds with the other molecules than the ones inside, so it takes less energy to release them. It is a proces that depends on the humidity, that's why a glass of water will evaporate at less than 100°C, but way slower than a puddle of the same quantity.

Vaporization is pretty much a binary process, because it needs to occur at a constant temperature (assuming the pressure is constant). But as the temperature raises to get to the vaporization point, the evaporation rate increases too.
That's why you will get CBD even at lesser temperatures than its vapor point, but it will take more time than a more volatile compound.

So when @pakalolo says that the process is not binary (which is totally accurate), it's the mix of evap and vap that is.

Hope I don't come off as pedantic but it's been bugging me

 

[pakalolo]

Hope I don't come off as pedantic but it's been bugging me

If you want to be pedantic then the process isn't vapourization at all, it's thermal desorption.

 

[Mirimi]

If you want to be pedantic then the process isn't vapourization at all, it's thermal desorption.

The way I understand the process we call vaporization (might be wrong):
- Thermal desorption is the separation between the liquid oils we want to get and the matrix of the plant
- Vaporization is the volumic state change inside the oil (and this one is what the temperatures charts give, only depends on the molecule and the pressure)
- Evaporation is the state change on the surface of the oil (highly dependant on vapor pressure, atmospheric pressure and surface area)

So all three processes are occuring, and their ratio is what gives the distribution in size of aerosol particles and chemicals (taste, harshness, chemical composition) ?

 

[Winegums]

vapourization can be split into two types: evaporation and boiling.

Evaporation occurs below boiling temp and a given pressure, on the surface. This happens because the vapour pressure is greater than equilibrium.

Boiling occurs through out the substance once it has reached boiling point. Not all of the substance boils instantly because higher energy particles will boil off first. This reduces thermal energy in the system and brings it back to the boiling point. Compounds will boil off even if the overall temp is below their boiling point due to inequalities in thermal energy.

I highly doubt much evaporation occurs with weed or concentrates at room temp. For the most part we are boiling off our cannabinoids rather than evaporating them.

Thermal desorption is what happens with vapourizing bud but not what happens with concentrates. Thermal desorption is the removal of volitile substances from a substrate by heat.

Notice how concentrates require higher temps and greater surface area? That's because thermal energy is conducted much faster in oil than flower. So when particles of oil boil off they cool the entire mass rather than having a small local effect. The concentrate would boil off much slower if it was just a pool rather than being absorbed into something like a pad.

Dabbing takes advantage of the Lidenfrost effect which levitates the oil above the surface of the nail. Without this effect nails would simply cook/burn the oil on the surface. This is due to a gas layer being created when the oil instantly boils by touching the hot nail. After the initial contact with the nail, the hot vapour continues the boiling process.

I hope this clears up some of the terms and science of vaping/dabbing.

 

[TboneToker]

i keep reading about the dangers of high thc and how cannabis has been selectively bred out of the cbd by the fact that prohibition causes the producers to try and maximize product potency for quicker easier and larger profit . im starting to question all of this and heres why .

i have access to quality tested and produced cannabis .
i have tried high thc , very high .
probably could be argued some of the highest thc available on the planet . if over 30% can be considered in that category .
i also have access to high cbd strains of value up to 14% cbd and as low as under 2 % thc .
to my surprise ( probably because of all the hysteria about the dangers of high thc ) i have found that some of the very high thc strains did not cause any paranoia or anxiety , but more of a very relaxing calming effect .
and actually have even experienced some anxiety from the high cbd strains .
i am still experimenting though .
i cant say i havnt ever experienced any anxiety from thc cannabis because i have , or am i claiming that the anxiety is caused by the cbd , because i think i have also experienced the calming effect that is said to be caused by cbd .

as to the theory of the high thc plants being selected only for the high that comes with plants potent in thc . and some how cbd selected out because of no high .
i would counter that people would select the plants because of the qualities that we like weather it be a pleasing smell or color or taste and yes of coarse effects . why would we select plants that make us feel not good ? it doesn't really make sense . i have found that in general the high thc strains have a better flavor experience . perhaps this alone could be why high cbd strains were not picked as often.

also perhaps just more projecting of fear by alarmist who don't understand cannabis because they really have no experience with it and are so worried about the children , and what other people decide to put in there own bodies . that they find fear in it .

i wonder if the anxiety side effect which i dont deny can happen , has to do with set and setting and many other factors . like even knowing that " they " say high thc causes these terrible things like psychosis . making the user of the high thc strain thinks they may get all freak out by the potent cannabis , and then so they are ready to experience it before they even experience it .

as i said i was surprised when i found my self very calm and relaxed after smoking or vaping some bubba kush that was over 30 % thc how could this be lol .
another time after a extreme q bag of sweet skunk cbd around 6 % thc and 9% cbd i found my self feeling pretty anxious .

i realize all of this doesnt have much to do with vaping temps . but it does have to do with effects i was just compelled to write about this because of reading about the high thc dangers again in this thread .

maybe give the cannabis farmers that have had to practices there art of growing in a under ground fashion a little more credit then the people that are still scared of the crazy plant lol

also keep in mind this is just some of my own personnel thoughts and experiences . who knows maybe the next guy jumps out the window after some 30 % bubba

Going to have to agree here, the higher the thc the more mellow and we'll rounded the high is. I also have a feeling terpenes also have a lot to do with the overall effect

 

[TboneToker]

Does anyone also notice that Indica/IndicaDominant strains seem to vape better at a higher temperature than Sativa/SativaDominant strains?

5.5 Worked good for blue dream and 6 as well (On the volcano)

Indicas work about as good as BD did at 5.5, at 6 or 6.5.

So Around 360 vs 375-380

 

[chris 71]

And you talk about Bubba Kush as an example for your arguments but Bubba Kush is an indica strain which has a higher CBD content NATURALLY.

this is a misconception i see alot from people and places that dont have access to actual lab tested cannabis. there is a notion that because its an indica strain that it has cbd , or that you just need to vape at higher temps to get the cbd . the vape temp of thc and cbd are not to far off , thc 157 C cbd 160 to 180 C very close indeed.

if there is no cbd then you wont get any , no matter what you do . the particular bubba kush i was speaking of in fact contained 0 % cbd even though it was an indica .
it came from tilray a tightly regulated licensed producer in Canada . which i think i can be pretty confident of the test results . i think the regulations are probably some of the tightest in the world . even if i was in Colorado i would be a little more hesitant to trust lab results , but im pretty confident of the lab results of the LP 's in Canada because it is more heavily regulated .

so as you can see we are way of from totally understanding the whole picture , and what relation the % of thc , cbd , other cannabinoids , terpenes and everything eles has on effects including set and setting .

im hesitant to believe everything i have read about cbd and how it has been bred out of the plant . just because it is illegal . and the drug dealers have bred it out unknowingly just for the sake of a making the quickest , easiest and biggest profit . leading to "dangerous skunk " and what not .

what im trying to say or am wondering is ....
people that are and have been breeding could be , and most likely were and are ,selecting plants more so based on smells , taste , effects and even things like beauty , and nice looking easy growing ect ect qulities . more so then the most potent thc . especially if it were tottaly true that thc is the only thing that often makes the user uncomfortable. if this was truly the case then we would have bred out the thc would we not ?

people like thc and so we have unknowingly bred up the thc not down ?
and down the cbd possibly for similar reasons ?

 

[TeeJay1952]

We all (or should) know the vaporization theory of more goodies with less exposure to harmful materials but I see almost everyone forget to heatsink their bowls. We are sucking the "steam" off a boiling pot. If we start our suck before the bowl is boiling then our inhale will have more air in it stopping us from getting lion's share of goodies.
Just wait a few seconds before beginning inhale. Larger, thicker clouds that don't condense on stem (passing lowest temp vapor leads to more collection as it is close to solidifying.)
Remember the idea is to get the vapor into you, not admire it. (blowing big cloudy exhales means you were exposed but passed on absorption.)

Just give it 3-5 seconds before beginning inhale

 

[CRvapes]

based on the given warnings! which i am confused by reading.

Does vaping have a more negative effect on our long term health because of increased potency in plants over the last few decades ?

 

[Snappo]

based on the given warnings! which i am confused by reading.

Does vaping have a more negative effect on our long term health because of increased potency in plants over the last few decades ?

Higher potency means needing to vape less, so less adverse effects if there were any to begin with. Also, contrary to popular belief and method, it is only necessary to hold in the vapor for just a few short seconds, which is how long it takes for the cells in the lung lining to saturate with the herb constituents that render the effects you're after - holding it in for lung-filled longer times is wasted effort and can lead to unnecessary irritation, infection, and accumulation of a lot of wasted product difficult for the lungs to purge. LESS IS MORE all the way around.

 

[Silat]

@vorrange - I was listening to Joe Rogan's podcast with Tommy Chong and Joe asked him that question. He said for the most part weed ha been the same. But who knows.

Well I am 65+ and was smoking in the 60's. Chong is either too high, has a very high tolerance or gets low grade medicine. The potency has changed 20 fold in my book. In the late 60's I started seeing buds instead of leaf, stem and seeds. Buds were a quantum leap in potency to what most people were smoking. In fact most people had no idea that the plant had buds.
You would smoke and need to make a food run, giggling all the way. Fun times.
Now days you can take a few hits off your bag etc. and not know how to find the damned store
Yes there has been a YUGE increase in potency. Chong is wrong.

 

[C No Ego]

Well I am 65+ and was smoking in the 60's. Chong is either too high, has a very high tolerance or gets low grade medicine. The potency has changed 20 fold in my book. In the late 60's I started seeing buds instead of leaf, stem and seeds. Buds were a quantum leap in potency to what most people were smoking. In fact most people had no idea that the plant had buds.
You would smoke and need to make a food run, giggling all the way. Fun times.
Now days you can take a few hits off your bag etc. and not know how to find the damned store
Yes there has been a YUGE increase in potency. Chong is wrong.

with cannabis being pushed underground with risk of freedom people have bred the strongest strains possible for maximum effect in less product. forgotten was the relaxant properties of CBD because THC took over the scene. now with legalization and people not just searching the black market they are wanting more CBD to go along with the THC. so it will be just a short period of time to turn the THC only craze around after the last 30 years or so to a more balanced CBD influence in the strains. less paranoia and more relaxing for good health

 

[looney2nz]

That would be me.

In the 60s, you got mostly leaf and not much bud, if any. On average, an ounce was about a third stems and seeds. I think this is the major reason for the difference in potency that most people report. When Thai sticks arrived, they blew people away because they were pure bud and no leaf.

We're drifting rather far away from the original topic. This can have it's own thread somewhere if people still want to discuss it.

Pakalolo,

In CA early-mid 70's before Thai Stick arrived (mmmm, Monk Thai!), there were still good strains like Columbian Gold, Acapulco Gold, Panama Red floating around (although brick weed was what most folks saw/bought, just as you described - stems, seeds and all), as well as some incredible old school hashish (Blonde Lebanese, Blonde/Black Afghani, Nepalese Temple Balls).
Just the flowers would likely average a good 10-12% back then.
I remember when it was '$10 for '6 fingers' (an ounce) of 'all tops' (flower).
The old school hash, wow, some of it was so flavorful, so varied in body effect, cerebral, etc. Terpenes But hell, as the story goes - Temple Balls were made by the monks going out into the fields of cannabis in the morning with the dew on the plant and start rolling the plant (big spears) between their hands while it was moist and it would build up the resin on the monks hands until there was a fair sized 'rope' of hashish that they section and roll into balls. Incredible.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

I remember when it was '$10 for '6 fingers' (an ounce) of 'all tops' (flower).

me, too! Palo Alto, 1971, Christmas - best oz i've ever had ... ever!

 

[looney2nz]

me, too! Palo Alto, 1971, Christmas - best oz i've ever had ... ever!

I think I was still able to make buys like that into 73 & 74
(but by then we were awash in Thai stick and honey oil
<remember 'pinners' dipped in honey oil?>).

I still remember one summer @ the beach and some Columbian Gold that was like smoking honey... sweet, fragrant and so damn smooth. Astounding wonderful body high (someone gifted me some seeds, hoping to be able to see if any are viable somewhere down the line).

Didn't make my way north from Huntington Beach until the 80's, to the Los Gatos area, and then eventually North Marin. After 20 years, back down in So Cal (no WAY I could afford it up there again, unless I was workin').

 

[cloudsosmoke]

in UK they had up to 16/17% in 1975..

http://www.badscience.net/2007/03/reefer-badness/


FTA
"There is, of course, exceptionally strong cannabis to be found in some parts of the UK market today: but there always has been. The United Nations Drug Control Program has detailed vintage data for the UK online. In 1975 the LGC analysed 50 seized samples of herbal cannabis: 10 were from Thailand, with an average potency of 7.8%, and the highest was 17%. In 1975 they analysed 11 samples of seized cannabis resin, 6 from morocco, average strength 9%, with a range from 4% to 16%."

(LGC = The Laboratory of the Government Chemist)

 

[herbalist33]

Having read through this thread, I find myself yet again wondering about something. I've searched this question before, but all answers/ discussions that arise seem a bit too 'anecdotal' for my liking, so perhaps we could discuss it here (there's a couple older threads on FC about this topic, but I think you guys in this thread could perhaps shed some light too). So here goes:

I'm questioning the whole 'vaporising decarboxylates THCa' thing. Now obviously vaporising does decarboxylate THCa into THC, because our avb edibles/tinctures work. But what I've wondered for a while, is just how much THCa in our herbs is decarboxylated, and how much is actually vaporised intact (as THCa). I'm assuming that THCa can in fact be vaporised intact, because the literature gives the boiling points of THCa, CBDa, CBGa, and all other acid forms of cannabinoids.

There seems to be a running 'myth', that any heat causes all THCa to convert to THC, it's almost accepted that our vaporisers do this. But I believe the 'vape-signature' that some of us experience can be attributed to the way in which our vapes heat the herb:

A conduction based vape such as the pax takes time to warm up the material, so there is a heating curve over time, which I would expect to convert more THCa to THC, before actually reaching vaporisation temperatures.

A convection based vape on the other hand (such as the E-nano), hits the herb in one punch with full vaporisation temps, which I would expect would flash vaporise THCa, CBDa etc without giving them a chance to decarboxylate into their more active forms.

In my experience, I find that even though I produce insane clouds with my enano, I can get significantly higher with my mflb with the same amount of herb, just over a longer amount of time.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm planning on trying to experiment with my EQ and mess around with different temps etc, get some different samples of the same strain ran through at different temps, and then subjectively try them all and record the results.

Also, to those in medical areas, what do your lab results say for your medicine- do they specify THC AND THCa levels, or do they count THCa along with the THC?

Jeez, I'm rambling and I'm sorry- I hope I've made some sort of sense.

I hope someone can shed some light on this subject.

Peace