Vape Carts Health Crisis Megathread

[TommyDee]

Google is your friend...

Tetrahydrocannabinol - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Tetrahydrocannabinol
Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is one of at least 113 cannabinoids identified in cannabis. THC is ... Like most pharmacologically-active secondary metabolites of plants, THC is a lipid found in cannabis, assumed to be involved in the plant's ...

Of course it is a lipid. How else would you make bubble hash?

 

[Siebter]

The amber stuff that collects on that stem is the same stuff that will condense on your lungs.

Vapor can not condense on moist surfaces as far as I know.

@Baron23 – I'm asking specifically about lipids, because they cause lipid pneunomia.

Edit: Thx @TommyDee

So that's interesting, isn't it. How come the lipid in our vapor does not cause these lung diseases?

 

[TommyDee]

Immune response is different for all molecules. An attack of Vit-E isn't something our bodies had to become accustomed to so the response is what made us sick. Not the Vit-E in particular although the dosage had a lot to do with it. Kind of like being stung by a bee v. being killed by a swarm.

 

[invertedisdead]

Vapor can not condense on moist surfaces as far as I know.

Do you own a water pipe?

 

[Siebter]

@TommyDee – So it's solely about the amount?

Vitamin E acetate in itself is harmless (when digested etc.), and the list of causes for lipid pneunomia on Wikipedia says that either kind of lipid will result in said disease when inhaled, so it's not specifically vitamin e acetate that causes it. Remember this comment started the discussion and that's what I'm referring to:

As others have said vaping flower is still inhaling thc in an oil form

...which implies that we run the risk ruining our lungs with lipids. Lipid pneunomia is not an imnune respone, it's an actual breakdown of the lung tissue.

Do you own a water pipe?

No. Maybe it can, but I'm sure our lungs do not look like the inside of a water pipe. Or do they?

 

[Baron23]

Vapor can not condense on moist surfaces as far as I know.

You don't use bubblers, bongs or concentrate rigs?

Think about that and then think about your statement.

Condensation has to do with temperature.....when the temp falls below the dew point of the vapor, it condenses (whatever the hell it is...doesn't matter) from gaseous back to liquid.

Also, I can't prove it but would be shocked if vapor wasn't only gas but also micro-droplets. This is what makes transparent water vapor appear white...think clouds in the sky.

By the by, the very same substances that are in our vapor are also in the smoke...along with a bunch of other nasty stuff. Same, same.

And the phrase "lipid pneumonia" doesn't mean that anything that is a lipid (e.g. a fat) will cause lung disease, IMO. It was thrown around a lot by the press during the cartridge induced illness cases and we....who along with almost all of the journalists are lay people wrt to medical information...think we understand its nuances and can extend this one example to other areas.

Cheers

 

[TommyDee]

Lipid simply means the molecule is not water soluble. That doesn't mean the body won't absorb it. Vit-E is harmless in digestion, sure. But in the lungs it has an immune response because it doesn't belong there.

 

[Siebter]

Think about that and then think about your statement.

Yeah, I said „as far as I know“, which means I don't know for sure – I had the idea in my mind that vapor can not condensate on lung tissue, but that was from a pharmacologists lecture I heard on a bit of a different subject. Unless further notice I stand corrected. It's just I'm not a scientist myself, so things can get mixed up a bit. Sorry if I sound too confident sometimes. :-)

Also, I can't prove it but would be shocked if vapor wasn't only gas but also micro-droplets. This is what makes transparent water vapor appear white...think clouds in the sky.

It's definitely some kind of aerosol, yeah.

But in the lungs it has an immune response because it doesn't belong there.

Hm, wouldn't say THC actually „belongs“ in our lungs. :-) But you are right, LP causes various imnune reactions, but as far as I know because of local inflammation of the lung tissue, while the actual problem is that the tissue is covered in fat and simply can't do its job.

 

[invertedisdead]

Carbon chain length of the lipid has a lot to do with whether they are absorbed or not.

 

[Siebter]

Carbon chain length of the lipid has a lot to do with whether they are absorbed or not.

Oh, now that's something I can sink my teeth into for a while – new concept to me, will do some research on it, thx!

 

[C No Ego]

@C No Ego – You heavily bypass my (again: pretty simple) question. „Lipophilic“ does not necessarily mean than something is lipid itself. I did not ask what it mimics or what kind of metabolite it is. I asked is thc a lipid.

Anyway, so you seem (!) to say it is a lipid. How come vaping it does not result in lipid pneumonia then?

the very reason I explained with such detail is because as everyone else here is stating = not all lipid are alike... if we ingest a lipid that closely mimics endogenously made lipids with a purpose ( cannabinoids) then expect our bodies to treat that lipid differently than other lipids, hence my explanation of the metabolism of said lipids ( biochemical pathways) ....

Oh, now that's something I can sink my teeth into for a while – new concept to me, will do some research on it, thx!

one of the main reasons that the active lipids in cannabis do not harm us per say ( non toxic) is because they activate COX/ LOX... activating cyclooxygenase and lipoxygense means those plant created lipid compounds will travel well in your cellular capacities to effectively metabolize lipids into signaling events ( homeostasis) ... the very pathways I've described are in our cells for homeostasis purposes and all the lipid metabolism we have identified via ingesting cannabis plant supports them... our endocannabinoid system buffers the lipids via signaling of them into retrograde signal;s... that is how ECS maintains cellular homeostasis ...
the 15,000 cannabinoids a minute per cell @ 50 trillion cells... that is your ECS

 

[Siebter]

@C No Ego – You threw a tad too many foreign words at me when you explained, sometimes I need a certain key to get an idea about something new to me before I even start to understand. :-) Carbon chain lengths dictating absorbance rates was the key here. The whole ECS is indeed a very new thing to me (and knowledge in biochemistry in general not my strongest superpower), so thanks for the bonus info, highly appreciated!

 

[C No Ego]

@C No Ego – You threw a tad too many foreign words at me when you explained, sometimes I need a certain key to get an idea about something new to me before I even start to understand. :-) Carbon chain lengths dictating absorbance rates was the key here. The whole ECS is indeed a very new thing to me (and knowledge in biochemistry in general not my strongest superpower), so thanks for the bonus info, highly appreciated!

glad to help and I forget we are all on the path @ our own timing and comfort level .. I just throw this stuff out there like its common place but forget we have been lied to to think that the metabolism of the cannabis plant is some horrible purple people eater , or little green men in the plant making you do crazy things ... LOL .
anyway
here are a few articles you can look into on your spare time > i am going on almost ten years of this research and feel I have not hardly learned anything it is so complex

metabolism of the endocannabinoid anandamide - open questions after 25 years https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnmol.2017.00166/full
taken from this search = https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffcm&q=me...en+questions+after+25+years&atb=v165-1&ia=web

Taming THC - Russo https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffcm&q=Taming+THC+-+Russo&atb=v165-1&ia=web

beyond cannabis plants - Russo https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffcm&q=beyond+cannabis+plants+-+Russo&atb=v165-1&ia=web

Raphael Mechoulam - he found THC in 1964 and still researches the compound https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffcm&q=Raphael+Mechoulam&atb=v165-1&ia=web

and last - patent # 6630507 - cannabinoids as anti oxidants and neuroprotectants https://patents.google.com/patent/US6630507B1/en

Edit - wow - a few more
omega three cannabis connection https://themodern.farm/studies/Omega-3 Deficiancy Abolish Endocannabinoid Function.pdf

how ECS became to be - https://www.sativaisticated.com/wp-...search-for-the-Endocannabinoid-System-ECS.pdf

https://www.phytecs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/IntroductionECS.pdf

 

[TommyDee]

<snip>...we have been lied to to think that the metabolism of the cannabis plant is some horrible purple people eater , or little green men in the plant making you do crazy things ... LOL .
... <snip>

Next you'll tell me there is no Santa Clause nor The Grinch. How will I get my '20-M?

 

[Siebter]

here are a few articles [...]

Oioioi. Thx *a ton*!

 

[C No Ego]

Oioioi. Thx *a ton*!

let me know if you have any questions or even answers... I'm always open to dialogue about this subject...
also , forgot to mention = you can look up mainstream cannabis research without cannabis being mentioned at all ... look into - specialized pro resolving lipid mediators . they are cannabinoids basically without stating that on the label therefore uptight researchers feel more safe LOL... I m finding this type shit in all my cannabis research were the medical profession buries their head in ignorance the second cannabinoids or even cannabis is mentioned

 

[ginolicious]

Some how I’ve managed to acquire so much pot that I’m running out of room for. I was contemplating using the hair straightener method and pressing some rosin to free up some mason jars cause I don’t wanna buy more jars. Anyways m, we decided that vaping flower doesn’t appear to be as bad as concentrates in that less oil is ingested so to speak. Does that mean for someone like me with slight lung issues, rosin could potentially be worse for me than just vaping flower? Also I know exactly where the buds come from and How they are grown and stored.

 

[Siebter]

Anyways m, we decided that vaping flower doesn’t appear to be as bad as concentrates in that less oil is ingested so to speak.

The problem with said cartridges are not the ingredients that we desire to inhale, but the stuff it was cut with. Concentrates in general do not contain harmful oils, it's the way black market manufacturers processed the concentrates that causes harm.

 

[ginolicious]

The problem with said cartridges are not the ingredients that we desire to inhale, but the stuff it was cut with. Concentrates in general do not contain harmful oils, it's the way black market manufacturers processed the concentrates that causes harm.

that was the impression I was getting and my understanding of these carts. But then earlier on maybe a few pages back where I started chiming in, was said that flower even releases oil into the lungs but not as much. I don’t want to release more oil than needed to cause me issues I guess is what I’m getting at. Would the rosin I press release more oil into my lungs and cause issues for someone

 

[invertedisdead]

Does that mean for someone like me with slight lung issues, rosin could potentially be worse for me than just vaping flower?

On the contrary, if you stop by the rosin thread you'll find that most on here who use concentrates do it specifically because of the smoother vapor.

Rosin allows you to filter out 75%+ on non-active material. The result is cleaner vapor as you're not applying heat and inhaling the byproducts of all that degrading plant material.

There are no "oils" in rosin which aren't present in the original flower.

 

[ginolicious]

On the contrary, if you stop by the rosin thread you'll find that most on here who use concentrates do it specifically because of the smoother vapor.

Rosin allows you to filter out 75%+ on non-active material. The result is cleaner vapor as you're not applying heat and inhaling the byproducts of all that degrading plant material.

There are no "oils" in rosin which aren't present in the original flower.

interesting. Thank you for that input.

 

[invertedisdead]

interesting. Thank you for that input.

The reason why these vape pen lipid pneumonia cases were such an anomaly is because these cartridge pens normally provide the cleanest vapor. Various processes are used with vape pen oil to remove plant fats and waxes, as they would otherwise burn and clog the atomizer. (the entire plant is coated epicuticular wax) Proper vape pen oil is basically 100% vaporizable, for a very pure experience.

 

[MinnBobber]

I don’t want to release more oil than needed to cause me issues I guess is what I’m getting at. Would the rosin I press release more oil into my lungs and cause issues for someone

............................................................................................
Like @invertedisdead said, the rosin should be cleaner, as the rosin oil is the "goodness" of the flowers.

The flower has all those oils plus some extra things, but in a much weaker concentration.

The rosin has the purer oils in a stronger concentration.

One can do a small rosin dab that gives the most goodies with least amount of vapor and least
amount of extras.

But you need to mind your manners and watch your dosing. The rosin is really concentrated so if the dabs start getting
away from you, the oil intake to your lungs can be much much more.

I am looking into pressing CBD rosin at this very moment, for its concentrated medical benefits.

Rosin has some appealing pluses.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

was said that flower even releases oil into the lungs but not as much. I don’t want to release more oil than needed to cause me issues I guess is what I’m getting at. Would the rosin I press release more oil into my lungs and cause issues for someone

this is my concern as well. when i do an ethanol extraction i get a 10% yield. however, the rosin press gives a 25%+ yield - i am assuming the additional yield is plant wax, from trichome bodies, etc.

so i stick to flower.

 

[ginolicious]

............................................................................................
Like @invertedisdead said, the rosin should be cleaner, as the rosin oil is the "goodness" of the flowers.

The flower has all those oils plus some extra things, but in a much weaker concentration.

The rosin has the purer oils in a stronger concentration.

One can do a small rosin dab that gives the most goodies with least amount of vapor and least
amount of extras.

But you need to mind your manners and watch your dosing. The rosin is really concentrated so if the dabs start getting
away from you, the oil intake to your lungs can be much much more.

I am looking into pressing CBD rosin at this very moment, for its concentrated medical benefits.

Rosin has some appealing pluses.

That’s what I have. CBD. And I want to press it all. I see myself doing a crap ton of dabs.