Vape Carts Health Crisis Megathread

[invertedisdead]

this is my concern as well. when i do an ethanol extraction i get a 10% yield. however, the rosin press gives a 25%+ yield - i am assuming the additional yield is plant wax, from trichome bodies, etc.

so i stick to flower.

The entire plant is coated in epicuticular wax. When you vape flower you're heating all that wax up regardless.

As far as yield... Cannabinoids are more soluble in ethanol at ambient temperature, but many people use cold ISO for the QWISO process to minimize pulling chlorophyll and other polar compounds. This affects the contact time and can easily reduce yield. A catch-22 of Etoh extraction

 

[Hippie Dickie]

can easily reduce yield

but as much as 2 1/2 times? wow. pretty wasteful.

i appreciate the term epicuticular wax - finally i have a search term. i have wanted to learn more about the cannabis plant waxes but searching has not been fruitful.

 

[invertedisdead]

but as much as 2 1/2 times? wow. pretty wasteful.

i appreciate the term epicuticular wax - finally i have a search term. i have wanted to learn more about the cannabis plant waxes but searching has not been fruitful.

You're very welcome, I've researched the wax thing pretty extensively - A few years back some of the rosin community got concerned that the plant waxes in rosin might cause lipid pneumonia. It turns out that most of these waxes have a much higher boiling point than what normal people vape at. That's why q tipping your nail became a thing, to wipe up the plant fats and waxes which did not vaporize, that way when you went to torch your nail for the next heat up you wouldn't burn any of that gunk on.

Another term I've seen referenced is 'nonacosane' by one particular PhD biochemist in the industry.

 

[Siebter]

Okay, now I'm confused.

When you vape flower you're heating all that wax up regardless.

But:

A few years back some of the rosin community got concerned that the plant waxes in rosin might cause lipid pneumonia. It turns out that most of these waxes have a much higher boiling point than what normal people vape at.

So vaping flower means vaping epicuticular wax but vaping rosin does not? I'm sure I got lost in translation again. :-)

Were you able to research those waxes specifically referring to cannabis? If so, it'd be cool if you could share a link or two, would esp. be interested in infos about amounts and degradation rates (if there is any).

 

[invertedisdead]

So vaping flower means vaping epicuticular wax but vaping rosin does not? I'm sure I got lost in translation again. :-)

In both cases the plant wax is being heated, but not necessarily being vaporized. Nonacosane for example has a boiling point over 800F. Possibly the waxes undergo some thermal degradation, but I don't think that information exists yet.

With rosin you filter out all that inactive plant material which would otherwise be roasted/degraded in a dry herb vaporizer. It's a "cleaner" vapor. You can even go as far as to isolate THCA from the rosin with mechanical separation for an even more "pure" / clean vapor.

 

[Siebter]

Possibly the waxes undergo some thermal degradation, but I don't think that information exists yet.

I was actually referring to degradation after harvesting and drying the plant as opposed to its growing period. It's just a question that popped up in my head after I asked myself how much of said waxes are present at all.

With rosin you filter out all that inactive plant material which would otherwise be roasted/degraded in a dry herb vaporizer. It's a "cleaner" vapor. You can even go as far as to isolate THCA from the rosin with mechanical separation for an even more "pure" / clean vapor.

Just for the sake of keeping this thread „cleaner“ (and it is quite a bit off topic as it is already) we should (at least for now) focus to clear things up about those waxes. I'm sure there's a plethora of other substances beside thca in the plant / the flower / the vapor, and while I'm not quite sure how inactive or impure those other substances actually are, I'm quite sure epicuticular waxes are not very desirable at all. On the other hand I think that from a toxicological or medicinal point of view the amount of a substance does play a role.

I'm still not quite sure they play a role at all – you say they are „not necessarily being vaporized“ – so should we be concerned about them or not? Since all plants seem to produce these waxes, I wonder why this parameter never comes up (tea, tobacco?).

Sorry if my questions seem random or even stupid, I just try to figure out a way to refer those aspects to us vaping.

 

[invertedisdead]

I'm still not quite sure they play a role at all – you say they are „not necessarily being vaporized“ – so should we be concerned about them or not? Since all plants seem to produce these waxes, I wonder why this parameter never comes up (tea, tobacco?).

From my research, I don't think anyone should be too concerned with plant wax, people have been smoking cannabis for over 10,000 years with no issues, which should result in much more of those waxes being inhaled than with a temperature controlled vaporizer. However many people in the concentrate community do feel like extracts with less fats/waxes does make for smoother vapor, so it's possible that some minor undesirables are created when the wax is heated. You'll find various opinions and theories when researching this topic, some believe these waxes are worse than others; alternatively, some believe they are beneficial and play a synergistic role, I've even heard one scientist claim the wax inhaled from smoked cannabis acts as a nucleation site to help the lungs expel inhaled crud.


As far as prefilled cartridges go, when properly produced, they will contain less impurities/waxes/non vaporizables than pretty much any cannabis product. This is due to various processes used during extraction which work to remove or minimize those fats. Most of these processes stem directly from the cooking oil industry.

 

[Siebter]

As far as prefilled cartridges go, when properly produced, they will contain less impurities/waxes/non vaporizables than pretty much any cannabis product. This is due to various processes used during extraction which work to remove or minimize those fats. Most of these processes stem directly from the cooking oil industry.

Now that's exactly the circle we are running all the time → we have observed some pretty unsettling incidents connected to black market cartridges, then we find out it's a certain oil based cutting agents that causes these incidents and we learn that oils in general should not be inhaled. On the other hand we learn that these types of oils are not typical for cartridges or concentrates and that it's safe to use legit and regulated cartridges (or making our own concentrates). *And then* someone else is saying: hey, let's not forget that we have all kinds of shit besides thc in our herbs for example waxes.

I understand the approach of trying to filter any component out of the vapor except for thc – it's not my approach but I get that when following that approach one will follow it consistently, meaning: purify as much as possible *regardless* of the question whether something is unhealthy or undesirable. That's the idea of making concentrates.

But for those of us who still prefer to vape flower the question remains: should we even care? I share your opinion that it's very unlikely an issue since we have observed plant material being smoked and inhaled for quite some time, and while we know pretty well what harm it can do, said waxes, as far as I know, have never really been an aspect of research yet.

Anyway, thanks a lot, your input makes things much clearer for me.

 

[C No Ego]

On the contrary, if you stop by the rosin thread you'll find that most on here who use concentrates do it specifically because of the smoother vapor.

Rosin allows you to filter out 75%+ on non-active material. The result is cleaner vapor as you're not applying heat and inhaling the byproducts of all that degrading plant material.

There are no "oils" in rosin which aren't present in the original flower.

smoking is top level add on type administration adding much more chemicals via combustion... dry herb vape is next level down still adding some waxes and Esters into the vapor but Best @ retaining acidic type cannabinoids ( carbon active) in delivery , beginning of sesh .....
Rosin heat would destroy quite a many of those acidic cannabinoids I*'d assume, ( maybe some carbon form phyto metabolites are retained deep within away from the most hot spot ) but the sensitive carboxyl most likely succumbs to the heat leaving only decarboxylated cannabinoids.

some of the most trichome laden cannabis I had vaped the best too, as there were more trichs per space and less over all plant leaf structure ETC....

 

[invertedisdead]

Rosin heat would destroy quite a many of those acidic cannabinoids I*'d assume, ( maybe some carbon form phyto metabolites are retained deep within away from the most hot spot ) but the sensitive carboxyl most likely succumbs to the heat leaving only decarboxylated cannabinoids.

Give this a gander
https://www.instagram.com/p/ByTn2FBAgDK/

"Extracting the resin's aromatic essence through low temperature mechanical separation produces this low viscocity, low yielding, terpene rich SHO. The diversity of cannabinoids in this fraction of the flower's resin is fascinating as well. It contains higher than average levels of CBGa, CBG, CBC, CBDa compared to other consistencies, while still maintaining THCa just under the point of super
saturation, making it one of the most medicinal and well-rounded solventless consistencies in the multi-verse. The high concentrations of terpenes also make it an excellent way to modulate your high when used in tandem with other SHO consistencies and flavors. Another beautiful evolution and manifestation of the cannabis resin's solventless medicine."

 

[MinnBobber]

Rosin heat would destroy quite a many of those acidic cannabinoids I*'d assume, ( maybe some carbon form phyto metabolites are retained deep within away from the most hot spot ) but the sensitive carboxyl most likely succumbs to the heat leaving only decarboxylated cannabinoids.

.............................................................................................................
One main reason for me starting to get into rosin is an attempt to "save the A's" (CBDA especially) as my buds will be legal CBD flower.
Squishing at 176 F in the decarb chart shows it takes a looong time to decarb.
That's what I hope happens...

 

[C No Ego]

Give this a gander
https://www.instagram.com/p/ByTn2FBAgDK/

"Extracting the resin's aromatic essence through low temperature mechanical separation produces this low viscocity, low yielding, terpene rich SHO. The diversity of cannabinoids in this fraction of the flower's resin is fascinating as well. It contains higher than average levels of CBGa, CBG, CBC, CBDa compared to other consistencies, while still maintaining THCa just under the point of super
saturation, making it one of the most medicinal and well-rounded solventless consistencies in the multi-verse. The high concentrations of terpenes also make it an excellent way to modulate your high when used in tandem with other SHO consistencies and flavors. Another beautiful evolution and manifestation of the cannabis resin's solventless medicine."

I guess either way in the end we vape it so whether it is acidic retained rosin or dry herb with the acidic forms in there they will be vaped...

.............................................................................................................
One main reason for me starting to get into rosin is an attempt to "save the A's" (CBDA especially) as my buds will be legal CBD flower.
Squishing at 176 F in the decarb chart shows it takes a looong time to decarb.
That's what I hope happens...

are you ingesting the oil to keep the acidic compounds? it seems when we vape it regardless of the starting material the decarb process overrides everything

 

[MinnBobber]

I guess either way in the end we vape it so whether it is acidic retained rosin or dry herb with the acidic forms in there they will be vaped...

are you ingesting the oil to keep the acidic compounds? it seems when we vape it regardless of the starting material the decarb process overrides everything

My vision would be try sublingual cbd rosin for its high efficiency uptake with CBDa AND also dabbing the cbd rosin. ?? Would sublingual cbd rosin taste better than cream extracted nasty tincture?

 

[spongebob420]

Interesting Leafly article about the fake carts and vaporizer additives. I suspected that a lot of the hardware and additives might have come from China. Apologies if it has already been posted.

https://www.leafly.com/news/politic...ain-investigation-leafly?cacheBuster=justOnce

The main issue I am hearing is about the fake black market cart. They all mostly contain pesticides which cause many health issues.

 

[Mookie0608]

I don’t even think this is a new issue it’s the same issue that’s been around for decades just being used with modern techniques. A lot of the bad street carts have the same shit in them bad bud has always had. One of the big fillers for carts by me is embalming fluid, and they do it at legal dispensaries too just other dangerous fillers. People will always abuse shit or find ways to make effects stronger. I know alcoholics who save there carts and strictly for alcohol loading them up with vodka. Some people are just crazy but point I’m trying to make is products have been cut for decades. Things are just getting to the point everything’s changing. Look at cigarettes there’s a menthol ban coming for cigarettes too. I personally think they should outlaw tobacco and replace it with pot some people I talk to think mushrooms should be legal too but strictly medical never recreAtional and primarily used in psyche wards apparently research shows extremely low dose mushrooms help people with mental illnesses. Think I saw that in the cannabis news network or what ever that medical research program is dispensaries play on dvd.

 

[Tranquility]

In one of the most obfuscatory "summary" ever, it seems it was not pot smokers or ecig users who got the vape lung from vape cartridges.
Rates of e-cigarette and marijuana use not associated with vaping-related lung injuries, study finds
Higher rates of e-cigarette and marijuana use in U.S. states did not result in more e-cigarette or vaping-related lung injuries (known as EVALI), a new study from the Yale School of Public Health finds.

 

[shredder]

Some people will believe anything that fits their pre-conceived ideas about the world, rather than dealing with any bit of cognitive dissonance that otherwise might apply.

Many don't even understand how peer-reviewed empirical evidence works.

It is what it is. All we can hope for is to spread a better understanding of the importance of critical thinking and skepticism, as well as how the scientific method works as the most efficient tool we have to get us as close to "capitol T truth" as possible, while avoiding as many false-beliefs as possible.

I think part of the problem is no one believed all the anti marijuana propreganda before and because of that, we are suspicious now. Especially when politicians get involved with health care.

As an example if it was found vaping dry herb was dangerous, would any current vaporist stop? I doubt many would. There is no trust of officials in today's environment.

 

[Jill NYC]

As an example if it was found vaping dry herb was dangerous, would any current vaporist stop? I doubt many would. There is no trust of officials in today's environment.

If there were legitimate, science backed studies (I‘d need several to come to same conclusion) that proved dry herb vaporizing was dangerous, I would very likely quit.

i don’t necessarily trust “officials”, but I do trust science.

 

[Tranquility]

If there was legitimate, science backed studies (I‘d need several to come to same conclusion) that proved dry herb vaporizing was dangerous, I would very likely quit.

i don’t necessarily trust “officials”, but I do trust science.

But, you really can't get a study that easily. The gold standard everyone seems to require for it being "science" seems to be of a certain type where neither the researcher nor the subject knows if there is a placebo or the drug.

I bet we could tell the difference between quality cannabis and some quality placebo herb.

 

[Siebter]

@Tranquility – are you not mixing up two (or three) things here? Researching potential harm doesn't necessarily need long-term studies with placebo groups or the like. Maybe you require that, but not „everyone”. What @Jill NYC was trying to say that *if* some scientific research would come up with some serious findings about potential harm from the usage of cannabis, she would follow it. Just as much as I would stop eating bananas *if* science found out they cause cancer or whatever. Which doesn't seem likely. Just as with vaping cannabis.

 

[Jill NYC]

But, you really can't get a study that easily.

True. Until it’s de-scheduled and it becomes legal (and economically beneficial) to actually do these kinds of studies (at least in US), we will continue to rely on mostly anecdotal information.

I bet we could tell the difference between quality cannabis and some quality placebo herb.

That would be a fun study. We‘d show them!!

 

[Ramahs]

As an example if it was found vaping dry herb was dangerous, would any current vaporist stop? I doubt many would. There is no trust of officials in today's environment.

I doubt I would quit, because it would still be less harmful than smoking.

That doesn't mean that I would not accept the new evidence. Of course I would accept it, but knowing that there is harm does not mean that I would quit. It didn't quit before I discovered vaporizing. That doesn't mean that I did not accept the fact that what I was doing while combusting was harmful.

 

[Tranquility]

@Tranquility – are you not mixing up two (or three) things here? Researching potential harm doesn't necessarily need long-term studies with placebo groups or the like. Maybe you require that, but not „everyone”. What @Jill NYC was trying to say that *if* some scientific research would come up with some serious findings about potential harm from the usage of cannabis, she would follow it. Just as much as I would stop eating bananas *if* science found out they cause cancer or whatever. Which doesn't seem likely. Just as with vaping cannabis.

There are a TON of studies out there that point to harms from cannabis and its constituents unrelated to combustion. We try to find fault with many of them, but there is a lot of evidence out there that cannabis is a drug and drugs have effects. Some of those effects are bad. There is a recent compilation of studies related to heart health out there that point to risks of cannabis use.

In that balance of risk/benefit we all have to make for all things we do, I choose to use.

But, there is scientific research that has serious findings about potential harm from the usage of cannabis.

 

[Tranquility]

While not exactly on point, ecigs have a problem with chemicals created by vaping. When the usual carrier of VG or PG are combined with certain flavoring agents (Vanillin was bad but benzaldehyde (berry or fruit flavor) and cinnamaldehyde (cinnamon flavor) were the worst.) other, more dangerous, compounds are developed.

It seems like we're going to need a full ingredient list on things.

Toxic Warning: Chemicals in E-cigarettes Mix Together to Form New, Unexpectedly Toxic Compounds

 

[C No Ego]

There are a TON of studies out there that point to harms from cannabis and its constituents unrelated to combustion. We try to find fault with many of them, but there is a lot of evidence out there that cannabis is a drug and drugs have effects. Some of those effects are bad. There is a recent compilation of studies related to heart health out there that point to risks of cannabis use.

In that balance of risk/benefit we all have to make for all things we do, I choose to use.

But, there is scientific research that has serious findings about potential harm from the usage of cannabis.

Describe one way that any part of the cannabis plant can harm any person anywhere ... what compound or molecule or Whatever is harmful in the plant ? please do not say = some research says this ot that .. I want you personally to explain it