Siebter
Less soul, more mind
I don't see the symptoms discussed here occurring when dry herb vaping.
Vape Carts Health Crisis Megathread
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I don't see the symptoms discussed here occurring when dry herb vaping.
ginolicious
Well-Known Member
I completely agree. The symptoms don’t appear to be prominent with dry herb. But a question was raised earlier if vaping dry flower still releases some kind of oil into the lungs. Some have said yes. And others have said no. One member mentioned the pressing of olives releasing oil. So when that question was raised we kinda moved from the cart crisis to does flower release oil oppose to symptoms. Or well that’s how I understood the last few pages in the discussion.
C No Ego
Well-Known Member
phytocannabinoids are lipophilic / terpenenophenolic compounds that are long chain fatty acids ( PUFAS) . phytocannabinoids are monoterpene / meroterpenoids . they are glandular resinous secretions ( enzyme /hormones) created in the trichome on exposed plant surfaces. they serve a s fatty acid metabolite when we ingest them
vaping makes it an aerosol ( solid to gas) but the cannabinoids ( lipids) are in the vapor too
Siebter
Less soul, more mind
Okay, but are they lipids themselves? I'm struggling with the terminology a bit. :-)
So is there a substantial difference between phytocannabinoids and lipid substances like vitamin e acetate when it comes to creating these kind of diseases? And if not, why not and if yes oh shit we are in danger (right?).
Cilleire
EuroVapeSim2
I probably should have worded this in a better way. Vapor is inhaled in a gaseous form but as it cools, it condenses into a resin/oil like state which can deposit on surfaces over time.
I'm personally not worried about suffering the effects shown by the oil carts when dry herb vaping, unless the flower has been heavily contaminated by an outside source. I'm not naive enough to think it has zero impact on my airways and lungs though, the different means we have to vape and how are material has been processed has to be studied further.
Siebter
Less soul, more mind
Well I'm actually very naive when it comes to vaping flower – I think terminology plays a huge role here (at least for me) and I have a hard time believing that what we vape is an oily (as in „lipid oil”) aerosol. I always thought that vapor contains resins, not fats. You say „resin/oil“ but those two categories are actually miles apart I think.
Cilleire
EuroVapeSim2
Terminology is huge when discussing this sort of thing and a big problem is what different names stand for. Who decides what is oil, resin, rosin etc... I would say resin or rosin can be in an oil like state but when oil is talked about a lot of people are referring to distillate, and not how the language defines oil. My understanding of weed is thc, cbd and the other compounds are lipids amd thats why they can bind so well to fatty substances like butter and coconut oil. I try to buy only good quality flower but thats not an option for everyone, I'd imagine if dry herb vaping causes respiratory problems like the carts we would have had many cases by now as people have been vaping weed and hash for ages, I've heard plenty of guys who used to heat up knives to hit their hash.
Siebter
Less soul, more mind
...hence I think the substances are not oils in the sense of „lipids“ (which is a relatively fixed term I think).
We are not talking about long term effects here, some of the victims of the cart crisis have been only vaping for a short period of time. Lipid pneumonia seems to occur acutely and not really in a slow, gradual way.
Edit - one argument just pops into my mind: if vapor was a lipid fatty oily thing, why do we need isopropyl alcohol to remove residue from our devices? This residue in my experience also does not seem oily, but rather sticky and solid. Like resin.
We are not talking about long term effects here, some of the victims of the cart crisis have been only vaping for a short period of time. Lipid pneumonia seems to occur acutely and not really in a slow, gradual way.
Edit - one argument just pops into my mind: if vapor was a lipid fatty oily thing, why do we need isopropyl alcohol to remove residue from our devices? This residue in my experience also does not seem oily, but rather sticky and solid. Like resin.
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Siebter
Less soul, more mind
resins contain a lot of different (essential) oils
Exactly, and that has confused me for a long time, but: while essential oils are liposoluble, they do not contain fats / lipids themselves.
Diggy Smalls
Notorious
When we vape flower we are not inhaling a distillate, which is the best case scenario for carts. We certainly shouldn't be getting any natural flavorings or other additives that commonly end up in them.
CANtalk
Well-Known Member
I think some of this is overthinking on terminology, but by all means go for it 
. There are definitions of all these words with Google search and one should be able to reconcile much of it.
It looks like many of you are correct. From what I've read
, phytocannabinoids (like endocannabinoids) may be an oil (are they a viscous liquid at room temp?) and are (amides or esters of) long chain fatty acids and resinous... as well as lipids. OTOH, not all of those classes of substances are analogous with each other... for example not all resins are lipids.
This was interesting https://www.shopbotanistohio.com/cannabinoids-terpenes.
. There are definitions of all these words with Google search and one should be able to reconcile much of it.It looks like many of you are correct. From what I've read
, phytocannabinoids (like endocannabinoids) may be an oil (are they a viscous liquid at room temp?) and are (amides or esters of) long chain fatty acids and resinous... as well as lipids. OTOH, not all of those classes of substances are analogous with each other... for example not all resins are lipids.This was interesting https://www.shopbotanistohio.com/cannabinoids-terpenes.
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Ramahs
Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
Not all oils are alike. Each is a different chemical(s). Not all oils are the same. Some oils can be perfectly fine to inhale, while others are terrible. Just because the substance is an oil does not determine whether it's safe or not.
TheThriftDrifter
Land of the long vapor cloud
Siebter
Less soul, more mind
Hence I prefer to use the term „lipids“, because a lipid (vitamin e acetate) has caused those incidents of lipid pneumonia. Lipids should definitely not be inhaled.
C No Ego
Well-Known Member
a few pertinent links -
https://www.lipidhome.co.uk/lipids/simple/lipamino/index.htm
https://www.lipidhome.co.uk/lipids/simple/endocan/index.htm
https://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/Lipid_signaling.html
https://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/Terpene.html
https://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/Terpenoid.html
" Cannabinoids are a group of terpenophenolic compounds present in Cannabis (Cannabis sativa L). The broader definition of cannabinoids refer to a group of substances that are structurally related to tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) or that bind to cannabinoid receptors. The chemical definition encompasses a variety of distinct chemical classes: the classical cannabinoids structurally related to THC, the nonclassical cannabinoids, the aminoalkylindoles, the eicosanoids related to the endocannabinoids, 1,5-diarylpyrazoles, quinolines and arylsulphonamides and additional compounds that do not fall into these standard classes but bind to cannabinoid receptors.[1] The term cannabinoids also refers to a unique group of secondary metabolites found in the cannabis plant, which are responsible for the plant's peculiar pharmacological effects. Currently, there are three general types of cannabinoids: phytocannabinoids occur uniquely in the cannabis plant; endogenous cannabinoids are produced in the bodies of humans and other animals; and synthetic cannabinoids are similar compounds produced in a laboratory. "
C No Ego
Well-Known Member
yes, a lipid with a terpene backbone... the terpene directs the metabolism of the lipids... as @CANtalk mentioned, they are Amides / amines / epoxides of fatty acids...
here is vitamin E acetate
Chemical formula
C31H52O3
Molar mass 472.743 g/mol
Appearance pale yellow, viscous liquid[1]
Melting point –27.5 °C [1]
here is THC
Formula C21H30O2
Molar mass 314.469 g·mol−1
edit - even more important are the elimination pathways ... the cannabinoids all go through so many pathways that are there to channel lipids into receptors ... examples, NAPE/ FAAH / MAGL / DAGL / PPAR / CYP450 / and probably the most important or observed = COX / LOX
please copy paste into your search to know what these are
edit 2 - our cells are phospholipids... they cleave phospatidylcholine / sterine from the structure and add those soluble epoxide fatty acid binding protein agents to form cannabinoid receptors ( crystallization) .
the action of the cannabinoids is post deploarization ( post to pre) to effect pre synpatic terminus.
ingesting phytocannabinoids = they bio-mimic this action somewhat and the cells accept them as signaling lipids and make more crystalline cannabinoid receptors with them
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Siebter
Less soul, more mind
@C No Ego – I try to make this discussion as simple as possible. So you say THC is a lipid, lipids are known to cause lipid pneumonia when being inhaled, so you say that inhaling THC is potentially fatal. Or do I miss something here? Esp. when vaporizing cannabis, the amount of thc in the inhaled mass is quite high, which would mean that we would see cases of lipid pneumonia being caused by vaporizing dry herb (and smoking too I guess).
C No Ego
Well-Known Member
what I said is THC bio-mimics our endogenously made endocannabinoids...
THC mimics - anandamide.. ( n arachidonoylethanolamine) which is made through the process I posted about in the other post
the Therapeutic index for thc is 40,000/50,000 to 1, this is also known as LD50 rating
the action that THC mimics = 15,000 cannabinoid signals occur each second per cell ( almost 1 mil a minute) ... add up about 50 trilliopn cells each signaling 15k a second and that is your ECS in action... I have no ( none @ all) simple answers to your complicated questions
therapeutic index for vitamin E acetate is not even registering... especially if you inhale it into your lungs as an vapor
Some research suggests it's not actually lipid pneumonia that's responsible for these cases, but the degradation of vitamin e acetate into ketene gas.
Siebter
Less soul, more mind
The question is very simple: is THC a lipid or does it contain lipids?
C No Ego
Well-Known Member
already answered that ... read my posts, THC is lipophilic ... not only is it a lipid it is terpenophenolic and used in our anatomy as a secondary metabolite , how/ what it mimics I've posted for you here
Siebter
Less soul, more mind
@C No Ego – You heavily bypass my (again: pretty simple) question. „Lipophilic“ does not necessarily mean than something is lipid itself. I did not ask what it mimics or what kind of metabolite it is. I asked is thc a lipid.
Anyway, so you seem (!) to say it is a lipid. How come vaping it does not result in lipid pneumonia then?
Anyway, so you seem (!) to say it is a lipid. How come vaping it does not result in lipid pneumonia then?
Baron23
Well-Known Member
You use a TM, right? It has a glass stem.
The amber stuff that collects on that stem is the same stuff that will condense on your lungs.
The fact that this reclaim is “oily” does not in anyway make it related to Vitamin E oil.
There are many, many kinds of “oil”