Vape Carts Health Crisis Megathread

[little maggie]

They are just starting to put together that this is a problem across many states. I think- or hope- we'll know more when they've solidified the information. But that could take a while.

 

[invertedisdead]

we used to be concerned about some butane in the product and people stopped BHO when that was not really an issue.... dying is an issue and its not BHO by product for sure

Its from vaporizing long chain lipids.

This isn't a cannabis issue.

 

[Plutonic]

University of Utah has discovered a marker common to all cases they've examined so far (currently 10 of 10): lipid-laden macrophages indicating immune system scavenging for oil in the lungs. I didn't realize until reading this that they've also been tracking mild cases that "improve within 5-7 days" with symptoms like "dry cough, chest pain, shortness of breath."

Question (probably rhetorical, and coming from total ignorance about this stuff): Given that there are lipids in flower (which is why concentrates are dewaxed), are our bodies always clearing low levels of lipids from the lungs, so that these illness occurrences are matters of degree, not of kind? Or maybe the flower lipid chains are so short that they're easily absorbed?

Also, keep in mind that legal, inspected carts have unknown ingredients. For example, as reported by MSN, "while the [Massachusetts] Cannabis Control Commission requires tests for certain contaminants, it sets no restrictions on ingredients used to flavor or cut the thick marijuana extracts used in vaping products — the very chemicals federal officials now fear are linked to 450 possible cases of lung illness, including five deaths, in 33 states."

 

[C No Ego]

Its from vaporizing long chain lipids.

This isn't a cannabis issue.

so basically kind of like the guy here on FC a while back vaping hemp seed oil and complaining how bad it is

 

[Tranquility]

There's at least one cartridge suspected responsible that was purchased from a legal store. It might not be what caused the problem, but, the decedent had just purchased a cart legally before he died.

https://mjbizdaily.com/deaths-illne...-cannabis-on-the-rise-health-authorities-say/

 

[ginolicious]

So I guess this is strictly a liquid issue. Not found in flower?

 

[Baron23]

they haven’t found (so far) any chemicals common to all tested carts, outside of the intended elements (THC and nicotine etc).

Not common to all, but common to a large percentage of the cases in NY. Great deal of correlation there.

But, correlation is not proof of causation.

And I agree...these cases are a distinct cluster and this was NOT happening before.

Something changed and I'm betting adulterants/cutting agents....but I'll wait for more information.

 

[Hackerman]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...ng-substances-linked-illicit-vaping-products/

"The companies being served with the subpoena are Honey Cut Labs in Santa Monica, Calif., for its Honey Cut Diluting Agent; Floraplex Terpenes in Ypsilanti, Mich., for its Uber Thick agent; and Mass Terpenes in Amherst, Mass., for its Pure Diluent.

The governor’s office said these three companies are the first to be subpoenaed, but more companies are likely to be ordered to provide samples as the investigation continues."

 

[darbarikanada]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...ng-substances-linked-illicit-vaping-products/

from the article: re vitamin e acetate "its molecular structure could make it hazardous when inhaled, and officials said it could be associated with the kinds of respiratory symptoms that many patients have reported: cough, shortness of breath and chest pain"

it'd be nice if they explained this...

 

[Kilo Crusher]

I monitor Craigslist, in several cities, just to keep updated on wholesale Disty prices. Iv noticed adds offering 5 Gallons of Honey Cut in LA for what ever price. I just saw the photo and could tell it was a scam, so I skimmed past. This industry is notorious for copy cat, funny guy business practices. Black market supply chain, could blanket the US in less than a week or two. I dont know who, but I know why......GREED CUTTERS.

 

[Mookie0608]

simplest way to put it this country is broken and has been for a long time. U have even men putting tampons up their butts now in school to get drunk. I don’t think any kid should be smoking period or drinking regardless of what it is but kids will be kids but things are different compared to 15 years ago when I was growing up or closer to 20. I just think weed should be recreational but regulated better and recreational users should not have access to the good pot Over a medical patient

 

[Truth Seeker]

simplest way to put it this country is broken and has been for a long time. U have even men putting tampons up their butts now in school to get drunk. I don’t think any kid should be smoking period or drinking regardless of what it is but kids will be kids but things are different compared to 15 years ago when I was growing up or closer to 20. I just think weed should be recreational but regulated better and recreational users should not have access to the good pot Over a medical patient

Crazy world for sure........but beer in the rear! (my oh my) ......I always thought that meant the back seat!

 

[Tranquility]

Let the regulations begin!

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/11/trump-weighs-ban-on-flavored-e-cigarettes-1489507

The Trump administration is finalizing a ban on flavored e-cigarettes after the outbreak of a vaping-related illness that's sickened 450 people and resulted in at least six deaths.

"We can’t allow people to get sick and we can’t have our youth be so affected," President Donald Trump said during an Oval Office meeting with Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar and acting FDA Commissioner Ned Sharpless. "People are dying from vaping, so we’re looking at it very closely."...​

 

[Alex3oe]

a ban leads to more unregulated/unchecked shit on the market

 

[Kilo Crusher]

https://future4200.com/t/honey-cut-clear-cut-ingredient-update/37792

This is a good read and fast. We get off topic slightly at times but its becoming pretty clear.
Stock up on your terpenes, packaging and carts folks. Trump is shacking his finger at the wrong group today. I predict I will be typing in all caps next week. IT'S THE CART CUTTERS.
And that's going to bring a whole bunch of new bullshit rules and regs. I texted my salesperson from TrueTurps, asking if they were having a fire sale. I did not receive a response, lol.
I bet the owners of these 3 or 4 companies have very short fingernails and bags under their eyes.

 

[Truth Seeker]

https://future4200.com/t/honey-cut-clear-cut-ingredient-update/37792

This is a good read and fast. We get off topic slightly at times but its becoming pretty clear.
Stock up on your terpenes, packaging and carts folks. Trump is shacking his finger at the wrong group today. I predict I will be typing in all caps next week. IT'S THE CART CUTTERS.
And that's going to bring a whole bunch of new bullshit rules and regs. I texted my salesperson from TrueTurps, asking if they were having a fire sale. I did not receive a response, lol.
I bet the owners of these 3 or 4 companies have very short fingernails and bags under their eyes.

I'm not so sure about him not doing the right thing....this technology is so new we have no data how safe any of this type of vaping is?

It'll probably help with the 2020 election base especially seniors.......yet the concern seems substantial from a public health perspective.

 

[darbarikanada]

it hardly needs to be said, but (IMHO) people are going to have to withhold judgment until the researchers (doctors, epidemiologists, etc.) have a chance to figure out what's going on. frustrating for sure (and scary), but you can't come up with a good policy fix (e.g. a ban) if you don't know the culprit. from everything I've read, there's still a lot of questions; it could be a contaminated product, that vitamin e acetate is inherently unsafe, or just heavy vaping (overwhelming the lungs' ability to expel vaping byproducts).

 

[invertedisdead]

Realistically though the idea of regulating black market cartridges sounds... hopeless. Unfortunately I think this phenomenon is here to stay. I bet all sorts of cutting agents will be used over the next decade, people are motivated by profit and this is just too easy to do for any type of regulation to make a realistic impact. None of these additives are being produced solely for this industry, so I can't really anticipate a ban on vitamin E oil. Who's job is it to enforce quality control standards on black market cartridges, regardless? Gov can't even keep our tap water clean... I digress.

Honestly I have to wonder, aren't these heavily adulterated carts gonna be absolutely disgusting and harsh? Seems like there would be multiple "warning signs" to quit using it. I can't even vape stuff with vegetable terpenes, all these cutting oils seem like they would have been noticably harsh/painful but IDK.

When I first got into oil pens they were all cut with VG/PG/PEG because hardware for thick uncut oils just didn't exist. Fast forward almost a decade later and there is zero (ethical) reasons to dilute an extract which has been properly processed for cartridges. We have the hardware, and we have the extraction techniques.

None of that is gonna prevent Chad from liquefying his shatter and pawning it off to his buddies though. You certainly (in most cases) just can't look at an oil pen and determine its quality/safety. That's precisely why I only vape cartridges purchased from reputable licensed vendors produced by cutting edge manufacturers with single source material so they can oversee the entire process from dirt to dab.

I highly recommend folks do their due diligence when it comes to any of these cannabis products if you can. If you're in a grey market, I would be pressing rosin and using it in a LAYG setup or mixing up a tincture.

 

[Kilo Crusher]

Unfortunately the new cuts are not harsh at all. Cant even tell it's in them, except you puff and puff and your house never get's blown down (if its cut too much). It has to be cut in the 30% range to be really noticeable smoking it.. You start getting into the 50% range befor you can visual tell. I am glad I know my guy but I still get all my products 3rd party tested. Cost me $500 per test., well worth it to my friends and family.

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

Let the regulations begin!

Exciting developments, for sure!

a ban leads to more unregulated/unchecked shit on the market

At this point, it's all unregulated/unchecked. A comprehensive ban on flavored e-cigarettes would mean that any flavored e-cigarette must be in violation, simplifying enforcement.

Trump is shacking his finger at the wrong group today. I predict I will be typing in all caps next week. IT'S THE CART CUTTERS.
And that's going to bring a whole bunch of new bullshit rules and regs.

It's unlikely that banning flavored e-cigarettes will have much effect on reducing cases of this vaping-related illness, unless a lung overload mechanism is involved.

If cart cutter(s) are found to be responsible in most cases, still don't know what federal regulation options are available, other than to enforce prohibition at a nation-wide level again, which seems unrealistic at this point. (Jeff Sessions must be wishing he was still AG.)

I'm not so sure about him not doing the right thing....this technology is so new we have no data how safe any of this type of vaping is?

It'll probably help with the 2020 election base especially seniors.......yet the concern seems substantial from a public health perspective.

Agree, personally. Familiar with certain aspects of tobacco regulation, professionally, since 2012. IMO, it's unconscionable that anyone can still mix and sell e-liquids to be heated and inhaled with no effective oversight. It's asking for trouble, and that trouble will probably look much like this vaping related illness, if it's ever identified at all.

Don't know about the base. They're pretty anti-regulation. So are e-cig vapers, IME, even though many have suffered from government's failure to effectively regulate combustible cigarettes in the past. Find the move a little surprising, politically.

Realistically though the idea of regulating black market cartridges sounds... hopeless.

... You certainly (in most cases) just can't look at an oil pen and determine its quality/safety.

Are there cases in which you can determine an oil pen's safety by looking at it? Does anyone know of legal states or industry players working together to develop enforceable standards? It's not impossible to at least improve the current situation.

 

[CANtalk]

I've been following this on the periphery for a while now. Here's a few recent related articles (my apologies if already posted).

It was new to me that...

Patients so far reported vaping within the past 90 days before developing symptoms. If you have vaped within the past 90 days or continue to vape, you should monitor your health for symptoms.

Others have added that nearly all patients reported vaping in the last 7 days.

https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/vaping-may-be-the-easiest-way-to-smoke-weed/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-we-know-about-vaping-related-lung-illness-11568194202?

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/is-vaping-safe-vape-lung-illness/

 

[invertedisdead]

Are there cases in which you can determine an oil pen's safety by looking at it?

Guess it depends on how we are defining safety but some legit brands have a QR code on the box with a direct link to that batch's analytical lab test results. That's pretty reassuring, of course, it still doesn't make it foolproof. And nobody is currently testing for diluents, although it would show up in the THC%.

At the end of the day there's always gonna be some level of trust involved unless we grew and processed it ourselves.

edit: forgot to mention that my real point about the looks of the oil isn't so much about good oil but for bad: some carts are so poorly done that you actually can get some insight into it just from the visual appearance - a friend showed me their carts recently which had clearly separated into two different layers, obviously diluted! These pens were purchased from a CA "medical dispensary" but they are not licensed by the state and have no obligatory medical standards to follow.

She was getting full gram pens Buy 1 Get 1 Free, for less than I can purchase a quality half gram cartridge from a licensed shop. Unfortunately the old adage of being too good to be true is often still accurate.

 

[fågel]

it would be great if the title of this thread could be updated.. took me a little while to find it!!

this shit is scary. many sick people rely on carts due to their ease of use (from my experience). hell, i use them myself when i’ve been unable to sleep because they are so quick and convenient. and of course, sick people are going to be at more risk, as the cases in california and oregon seem to show. wtf has happened in recent months that’s led to this?!? i hope, for everyone’s sake, the cause is uncovered soon.

 

[Planck]

It's a shame that so many e-cig and thc-cig users are so quick to throw the other group under the bus. I see e-cigs and t-cigs as two sides of the same coin.

Divide and conquer!

In order to understand what is happening in the USA regarding vaping regulations one must understand the master settlement agreement between the tobacco industry and the state. Follow the money.

 

[Tranquility]

Guess it depends on how we are defining safety but some legit brands have a QR code on the box with a direct link to that batch's analytical lab test results. That's pretty reassuring, of course, it still doesn't make it foolproof. And nobody is currently testing for diluents, although it would show up in the THC%.

At the end of the day there's always gonna be some level of trust involved unless we grew and processed it ourselves.

Branding.

Perhaps a council like Underwriter's Laboratory that, when you have followed their stringent conditions, they allow you to place a mark of quality on your product.