USB-C obsession

[Abysmal Vapor]

It's quoted on the official manufacturing webpage

"This allows the MIGHTY+ to be charged with 45 watts."

Plus for it to recharge that fast it has to charge at 45w

It's just annoying having to explain something that is EZ

Edit: that charger you linked is variable wattage BTW

This charger is also linked from the manufcaturers official page. No need to explain anything if you dont like
The math just doesnt add up , this charger supplies 3 amps. How doest it charges them at 5 each ?\

USB-C Supercharger (for MIGHTY+ & VENTY)

Quick charger with 4 plugs. The quick charger enables fast charging of the battery. Perfect for exploring the world: Thanks to the four interchangeable plugs, the MIGHTY+ and the VENTY can be used almost anywhere in the world. Suitable for: MIGHTY+ VENTY

www.storz-bickel.com

Maybe full 45w watts is for pass through only. Similar to the Solo which charges at one voltages and powers at another.
For pass-through, a Supercharger (+15V @ 3A) is required, which can be purchased in our online shop.
""
Also It does not matter how it's wired, it does not take less time to charge if I wire it different.
""""
When wired in series the voltage stacks but amps stays the same,when wired in paralel the voltage stays the same and amps stack.
Doesnt that make a difference in the charger requirements ? In one case you need double the voltage in other double the amps.

 

[ScyOne]

I kinda like explaining actually, I just get annoyed when I have to explain too much.

https://imgur.com/N3OLk8y

Seee the charger you linked is 45w, plus the mfg webpage quotes 45w charging power, plus for it to recharge that fast it has to be 45w.

Its specifically says the 45w is charging power too.

For it to recharge 2 batteries @ 45w it has to recharge each battery at 5a, the math is adding up for me.

Edit: ok look battery capacity is measured in watt-hours. No matter how you wire it it will always have the same capacity and chargers will charge depending on capacity, not how it's wired.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

I kinda like explaining actually, I just get annoyed when I have to explain too much.

https://imgur.com/N3OLk8y

Seee the charger you linked is 45w, plus the mfg webpage quotes 45w charging power, plus for it to recharge that fast it has to be 45w.

Its specifically says the 45w is charging power too.

For it to recharge 2 batteries @ 45w it has to recharge each battery at 5a, the math is adding up for me.

So there is a step up/down converter in the mighty board, that makes 20v x 2,2amps into 4.2v 5amps to each. Thx for explaining.

 

[ScyOne]

All devices that takes USB and charges a battery must step down.

You cannot charge a lithium at over 4.2v

Well maybe if you wire them different and do like 8.4v or something.

But 9v will not charge 2 lithium's without a converter no matter how you wire it.

I think that is the misunderstanding.

I would have to say charging a single 18650 @ 5a is pretty nuts and I would have to say it's probably not a good idea. For example I charge 18650's @0.5a for longevity and 2a max only if I need it to charge fast. 5a will degrade the battery hyper fast, unless they have tricks or something.

BRB gotta do some research and provide proof now. Research and proof is all the rage now
Like I'm gonna show people an article my little sister wrote that is gonna take 30mins to read and never know what it says.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

But 9v will not charge 2 lithium's without a converter no matter how you wire it.

They must use a converter in this cause but I think it is possible if you add a diode or some other consumer to the circuit. For example if you need 8,4v out of 9v you add 0.6v diode.

 

[ScyOne]

IDK anything about that.

Anyways to charge the Mighty+ that fast would need 45w either way. So, 9v @ 3a is not gonna do it.

You need full power 45w.

Edit: you do realize how much power you would need to charge 18650's as fast as the Mighty+ does right? I can bust out some math, but maybe I won't have to. Cause you can research it on a calculator.

I mean like they don't list 45w charging power, if they are only using 27w charging power.

Edit2: I link a calculator here for you guys. http://www.csgnetwork.com/batterychgcalc.html

If you plug in the values, Mighty+ battery capacity = 6000mAh, Charge rate 10000mA = 5a each battery. = 43.2mins to recharge from empty to full.

That is not including the fact that most advance stuff charges at full power from 0 to 80% then scales back the charge rate significantly to reduce battery wear. (The reason most mfg advertise only charge to 80% is this fact)

5a per battery on bulk charge seems perfectly in line with this. After 80%... like it said it will scale back power significantly to reduce wear.

Also, notice how the calc never ask for battery voltage or how it's wired? its cause it don't matter, only battery capacity and charge rate matters.

---- Schooled by the Master -------

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Ok, i guess since math is right ,consider me schooled.Here is a diagram for people that want to understand the difference between parallel and in series wiring.

 

[ScyOne]

The thing is the battery capacity will always be the same when in parallel or series. The voltage will change, but capacity will always be the same.

And chargers will charge on capacity, not voltage.

My e-bike battery is 15s9p in that config. And my charger is 360w, variable voltage to anything I desire.

I will never be able to change how fast it charges, no matter how I set up my battery. It will always deliver 2.66w per cell. And charge the total the exact same.

 

[pop22]

Charging LiPo batteries is not as straight forward as you'd think. It's actually a 2 stage process, first constat current, then constant voltage. Most "rapid" chargers skip stage 2... so what you are really getting is a 70-80% charge., the same way the fast charging stations for EVs work. Electronics in the charger cut off the charge at a certain point, with EVs it's usually 85%. There is no way to fully charge an 18650 rapidly. Also, LiPo batteries are never charged to 100%, it can actually damage the batteries. 90-95% is the cut-off of chargers. Sometimes this limiting circuitry is bult into the batteries.

 

[ScyOne]

battery algorithms are very interesting to me.

The Teslas actually have a preconditioning feature you can use that warms your battery if it's too cold prior to charging. Its better to waste battery power to heat it up rather than charge it while it's cold.

Cause charging batteries while they are cold is a very bad idea.

I kinda think current battery tech sucks though. Too many gotchas.

 

[vaporoufixtras]

Ok this was a great excuse to brush up on basic circuitry, but I think I have it figured out. I think @Abysmal Vapor has it right.

These are the power cells inside the Mighty and it has two of them (if you go to the Technical Information tab you'll see their specs). They're rated as 3250mAh at 3.6V, that's 11.7Wh. Multiply that by two you get 23.4Wh. That's how much power the charger needs to be able to output in one hour in order to charge both batteries in one hour.

Storz states that the fast charger fills 80% of the Mighty battery in 40min. To make calculations easier we convert that to one hour, and that is 120% in 1hr. That means to charge it this fast, the charger must be able to output 1.2*23.4 = 28.1Wh. That's how much power the charger needs to be able to output in one hour in order to charge both batteries in 50m (since 80% @ 40m -> 100% @ 50min).

If we look at the specs of the charger we can see that it can output at various levels: 5V/3A, 9V/3A, 12V/3A, 15V/3A and 20V/2.25A. Alternately that is 15W, 27W, 36W, 45W and 45W respectively. Therefore we can see that indeed when charging the device the charger supplies around 27W (9V/3A) and when using pass through 45W (15V/3A). The charger can output up to 45W (per hour), depending on how much current the circuitry of the Mighty allows it to pass to the device (either to the battery or straight to the device for pass through usage).

https://imgur.com/2wBagAQ

 

[RustyOldNail]

Ok, i guess since math is right ,consider me schooled.Here is a diagram for people that want to understand the difference between parallel and in series wiring.

Yes, as you can see in a simple “parallel” setup, you GAIN the added AMP hours of each added battery, and the voltage stays the same. Useful for longer run times, at the voltage of a single battery in the setup. (Plus to Plus - minus to minus).

In a simple “series” setup, (plus to minus), the VOLTAGE becomes ADDITIVE, but the TOTAL AMPS are only equal to a SINGLE battery amp output, in the series. Useful for higher voltage applications. No gain of runtime amp hours.

Since the Mighty does not seem to offer much more then approximately 3,000mAh, we can assume the TWO internal 18650’s are wired in SERIES.

USEFUL ONLINE OHMS LAW CALCULATOR, plug in two values, get results.

Watts/Volts/Amps/Ohms Calculator

Watts (W) / volts (V) / amps (A) / ohms (Ω) calculator.

www.rapidtables.com

The specifications on that S&B charger clearly state it’s MAXIMUM OUTPUT at any voltage is 3 amps.

As ScyOne mentions above, a 5 amp charge rate will shorten battery life, but you live FASTER, as a trade off.

If you look up and download battery manufacturers SPECIFICATION sheets, on similar speced 18650’s, you will see suggested charge rates, and maximum rates, 5 amps is close to the maximum 6 amps I see on many spec sheets. If you learn about “charge rates”, a 1C charge rated 3,000mAh 18650 = 3 amps, suggested charge rate of .5C = 1.5 amps. The devices on board battery management system handles this, but I don’t know how pass through is handled.

 

[ScyOne]

Ok this was a great excuse to brush up on basic circuitry, but I think I have it figured out. I think @Abysmal Vapor has it right.

These are the power cells inside the Mighty and it has two of them (if you go to the Technical Information tab you'll see their specs). They're rated as 3250mAh at 3.6V, that's 11.7Wh. Multiply that by two you get 23.4Wh. That's how much power the charger needs to be able to output in one hour in order to charge both batteries in one hour.

Storz states that the fast charger fills 80% of the Mighty battery in 40min. To make calculations easier we convert that to one hour, and that is 120% in 1hr. That means to charge it this fast, the charger must be able to output 1.2*23.4 = 28.1Wh. That's how much power the charger needs to be able to output in one hour in order to charge both batteries in 50m (since 80% @ 40m -> 100% @ 50min).

If we look at the specs of the charger we can see that it can output at various levels: 5V/3A, 9V/3A, 12V/3A, 15V/3A and 20V/2.25A. Alternately that is 15W, 27W, 36W, 45W and 45W respectively. Therefore we can see that indeed when charging the device the charger supplies around 27W (9V/3A) and when using pass through 45W (15V/3A). The charger can output up to 45W (per hour), depending on how much current the circuitry of the Mighty allows it to pass to the device (either to the battery or straight to the device for pass through usage).

https://imgur.com/2wBagAQ

You are forgetting the device scales back charge rate significantly after 80%

The charger will have to be quite higher than 28.1Wh To charge the Mighty in 50mins 9v/3a is not gonna cut it while charging. Plus charging has a loss of like 20% or so.

The thing is no one knows what the charging algorithm is doing. It's not always gonna be a constant charge rate. I know this cause my e-bike charger is advanced and you can actually change the algorithm.

Anyways, if you look on the calculator I provided. http://www.csgnetwork.com/batterychgcalc.html

2600mAh is 80% each battery. To charge that battery to full of the 80% in 40mins you have to send it 5a

https://imgur.com/bqtDDOA

4.2v @ 5a = 21w per battery. 42w for 2 batteries.

----I made the calculations using the battery specs you provided for these calculations, but I very much doubt that is what is in the Mighty+, those are pretty low amperage cells and the charge rate on the Mighty+ would destroy it. A higher amp cell would have a lower capacity around 3000mAh

 

[vaporoufixtras]

You are forgetting the device scales back charge rate significantly after 80%

The charger will have to be quite higher than 28.1Wh To charge the Mighty in 50mins 9v/3a is not gonna cut it while charging. Plus charging has a loss of like 20% or so.

The thing is no one knows what the charging algorithm is doing. It's not always gonna be a constant charge rate. I know this cause my e-bike charger is advanced and you can actually change the algorithm.

Anyways, if you look on the calculator I provided. http://www.csgnetwork.com/batterychgcalc.html

2600mAh is 80% each battery. To charge that battery to full of the 80% in 40mins you have to send it 5a

https://imgur.com/bqtDDOA

4.2v @ 5a = 21w per battery. 42w for 2 batteries.

----I made the calculations using the battery specs you provided for these calculations, but I very much doubt that is what is in the Mighty+, those are pretty low amperage cells and the charge rate on the Mighty+ would destroy it. A higher amp cell would have a lower capacity around 3000mAh

The Ah of a battery and the A of a charger aren't enough to determine charging time. You're forgetting about the voltage of the battery and the voltage of the charger. A 6Ah battery rated at 12V will charge in 3h with a 12V charger at 2A, and in 2h with a 12V charger at 3A.
The voltage of a battery is commonly omitted because when comparing similar batteries only the Ah changes between and not the voltage (as they're designed to output a specific voltage).
In the end what you care about in batteries is the total energy, and Volts*Ampere-hours gives you Watt-hours, which is a measure of energy. Ampere-hours alone isn't enough information.

 

[ScyOne]

You don't need the volts of the charger and battery, the volts of the charger will have to be the same voltage of the battery max voltage.

Ah of battery and amps of charge is 100% enough to determine charge time.

A 6Ah battery rated at 12V will charge in 3h with a 12V charger at 2A, and in 2h with a 12V charger at 3A.

6Ah divided by 2 = 3h....... 6Ah divided by 3 = 2h.

Seee both those are solved by never having to know the volts

-----If you can show me something I cannot determine without using voltages and only Ah and amps of charge alone go ahead.

 

[vaporoufixtras]

You don't need the volts of the charger and battery, the volts of the charger will have to be the same voltage of the battery max voltage.

Ah of battery and amps of charge is 100% enough to determine charge time.



6Ah divided by 2 = 3h....... 6Ah divided by 3 = 2h.

Seee both those are solved by never having to know the volts

-----If you can show me something I cannot determine without using voltages and only Ah and amps of charge alone go ahead.

But the voltage the charger is supplying to the device is different than the one used to charge the battery by the internal circuit (though the amperage stays the same). Since the Mighty batteries are wired in series their voltage is added. Therefore the device draws 3A at 9V and splits it into the two batteries at ~4.2V each.

 

[ScyOne]

But the voltage the charger is supplying to the device is different than the one used to charge the battery by the internal circuit (though the amperage stays the same). Since the Mighty batteries are wired in series their voltage is added. Therefore the device draws 3A at 9V and splits it into the two batteries at ~4.2V each.

The device converts the voltage to whatever it needs. You can't charge a lithium over 4.2v and USB is not gonna supply that exact voltage.

4.2v times 2 = 8.4v

You cannot charge 8.4v with 9v, it will have to be converted.

You can convert it to any amps or volts that is not over the max watts the source can supply.

 

[vaporoufixtras]

You can't charge a lithium over 4.2v

That's right you can't. That's the limiting factor of charging a battery, the max voltage you can supply power to it. So that's what the charger is doing, with two 4.2V batteries (3.6V nominal rating, but 4.2V for charging) connected in series. That means that together they're equal to a 8.4V battery. To charge that battery you need to supply power to it at that voltage, so at 9V.

 

[ScyOne]

That's right you can't. That's the limiting factor of charging a battery, the max voltage you can supply power to it. So that's what the charger is doing, with two 4.2V batteries (3.6V nominal rating, but 4.2V for charging) connected in series. That means that together they're equal to a 8.4V battery. To charge that battery you need to supply power to it at that voltage, so at 9V.

9v is over 8.4v though. It won't work with straight 9v.

20v @ 2.25a can be converted into any voltages and amps that don't exceed 45w. And it has to be converted like I said.

Also, I don't know how this applies to the battery needing 5a to charge that fast.

----Edit: https://www.storz-bickel.com/en-us/support/mighty-plus

"This allows the MIGHTY+ to be charged with 45 watts. "

See they say it's charged with 45w, so IDK what you guys talking about.

It's amusing though at least.

----Edit again lmao I didn't read it all from that page, but

"The new charging function helps the MIGHTY+ to charge its battery to 80% in approx. 40 minutes (+15V@3A)."

So yea for it to charge at 45w you have to send 5a to each battery.

 

[vaporoufixtras]

Got me stumped, you may be right.
Looking at it again from an energy perspective, you have a charger pulling 45W from the wall but due to losses (as you stated) we're getting 80% of that, so 36W. You have two 11.7W batteries to charge, that's 23.4W. Storz states that you're going to get an 80% charge in 40m. So we want to see in how much time 80% of the battery will be charged at this energy rate. So 23.4*0.8 = 18.7W and 18.7/36 = 0.52hrs. Which is close enough to 40m (0.66hrs).

 

[ScyOne]

To be fair it does make sense that 23.4w of charge would charge a 23.4Wh battery to full in 1 hour. But with loss that would be closer to 33w of charge.

Plus it don't charge at full rate the whole way. It will charge way faster at first usually to 80% or so and throttle down.

To charge 80% in 40mins would takes around 41w. But then it probably wont charge at high current at a constant rate too, so at some point it might charge with 45w or maybe less to give it headroom if the limit is 45w

 

[RustyOldNail]

I don’t own a Mighty PLUS, just the OG, so I can’t do any meter testing. I have a power meter that can be wired for different connections, called PortaPow, I think they are no longer being made. But I also bought this USB-C meter recently, might reveal what’s passing through from charger to device, assuming the connections match, again I don’t have a PLUS version, the OG Mighty uses its own 12v 3amp wall wart charger, no USB.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09C46S5L9/ref=twister_B09C59SZ35?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

 

[ScyOne]

If I decide to get a Mighty+ I can meter it. See how many volts/amps/watts it's using. I have a really advanced meter that shows how much energy was used too.

I think I will be getting though, sometime next week maybe.

Loving the Crafty+, but I have the micro USB one and battery life is an issue for my application.

 

[RustyOldNail]

If I decide to get a Mighty+ I can meter it. See how many volts/amps/watts it's using. I have a really advanced meter that shows how much energy was used too.

I think I will be getting though, sometime next week maybe.

Loving the Crafty+, but I have the micro USB one and battery life is an issue for my application.

What model meter do you have?

 

[ScyOne]

https://www.amazon.com/KJ-KayJI-Multimeter-Resistance-Temperature-Adjustable/dp/B08CXMBB75/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=38HDSVYROWVWN&keywords=usb+meter&qid=1643940360&sprefix=usb+meter%2Caps%2C115&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyUEZMNkNEV1NCMDhOJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMTkzODExM01HVFlGM1c0NFBJTyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMzUzMDEyMVFGMDBJOVM3TU5KMCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=