This Shit with North Korea is Getting More Than Just a Bit Scary.....

grokit

well-worn member
The bottom line to all this is that Kim will never give up his nukes
I guess you missed this latest bombshell, that they they tried to do just that last year. Nk's unilateral nuclear disarmament wasn't enough for the obama administration to sign a peace treaty, so they rejected it.

I referred to it earlier, here's the money quote click for the rest:

... the Obama administration dropped its condition that Pyongyang take steps to curtail its nuclear arsenal before any peace talks take place, instead calling for North Korea's atomic weapons program to be just one part of the discussion ... Pyongyang declined the proposal, and its Jan. 6 nuclear test ended the diplomatic plans ...
(reuters via wsj)

edit: also: Chomsky on North Korea & Iran: Historical Record Shows U.S. Favors Violence Over Diplomacy

I don't always agree with chomsky, but he's usually proven right and I certainly do on this.

"Hindsight is 2020"

:peace::myday:
 
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Silver420Surfer

Downward spiral
I guess you missed this latest bombshell, that they they tried to do just that last year. Unilateral nuclear disarmament wasn't enough for the obama administration to sign a peace treaty so they rejected it.

I referred to it earlier, here's the money quote click for the rest:

... the Obama administration dropped its condition that Pyongyang take steps to curtail its nuclear arsenal before any peace talks take place, instead calling for North Korea's atomic weapons program to be just one part of the discussion ... Pyongyang declined the proposal, and its Jan. 6 nuclear test ended the diplomatic plans ...

edit: Also this:
Chomsky on North Korea & Iran: Historical Record Shows U.S. Favors Violence Over Diplomacy

I don't always agree with chomsky, but he's usually right and I certainly do on this.

"Hindsight is 2020"

:peace::myday:

So basically the USA Military Industrial Complex told the Pres(Obama) that the US would NEVER agree to stop sending US military planes to do reconnaissance on NKoreas borders, in return for NKorea "freezing" its current work on nuke weapons.

I can hear ol' Obama shouting down all these retired/current generals "pleas" for Peace in NKorea in my head right now. He commits to that in 2015...EVERY Repub/ political opponent would of called for his head for being weak and cow-towing to the dirty foreigners who so "threaten" the way of life in 'Murica.


I don't fault Trump for a "tough" stance...its been quid-pro-quo since what,1953, with NK. That's what the military advisors(whether they have been appointed by dems or repubs in the past, same result) are telling him to do.

But Trump should stay the fuck off Twitter and stop acting like a rejected 12yr old boyfriend on FB with your posting.
 
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grokit

well-worn member
So basically the USA Military Industrial Complex told the Pres(Obama) that the US would NEVER agree to stop sending US military planes to do reconnaissance on NKoreas borders, in return for NKorea "freezing" its current work on nuke weapons.
It sounds a little less cynical when you put it like that but yessir, the usa war machine needs its enemies like life on earth needs oxygen & hydrogen, or like we need our vaporized cannibinoids. We're all junkies!

:argh:
 

Baron23

Well-Known Member
Tell that to the war crime victims of hiroshima and nagasaki.

My friend, you know we differ on some things, see eye to eye on many others, and really try to deal with others with respect.

With all of that said, that has to be one of the most historically ignorant statements I have ever read.
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
My friend, you know we differ on some things, see eye to eye on many others, and really try to deal with others with respect.

With all of that said, that has to be one of the most historically ignorant statements I have ever read.

I disagree. I suppose calling the nuclear bombings of Japan "war crimes" is debateable, but it's a fair opinion. Before the US dropped nukes, Russia was about to join the war against Japan. When that happened, Japan was sure to surrender. Dropping nukes had more to do with a show of force to Russia than bringing the war to a close.

The fantastic podcast "Hardcore History" discussed this in its episdoe "Destroyer of Worlds". I highly recommend it. Especially given current events.
 
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Tranquility

Well-Known Member
Let us consider a man from another time, Rudyard Kipling:

It is always a temptation to an armed and agile nation
To call upon a neighbour and to say: --
"We invaded you last night--we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away."

And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you've only to pay 'em the Dane-geld
And then you'll get rid of the Dane!

It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say: --
"Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away."

And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.

It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray;
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say: --

"We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!"
 
Tranquility,
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grokit

well-worn member
My friend, you know we differ on some things, see eye to eye on many others, and really try to deal with others with respect.

With all of that said,
that has to be one of the most historically ignorant statements I have ever read.
That's just like your opinion, man.

My opinion is that you're completely wrong about this, and there are many people that agree with me. Just google "truman war crimes" and you can see that there's plenty of informed opinions on both sides.

There was no military necessity, and the japanese had made two attempts toward a negotiated peace. In response, the potus gave the order to drop an atomic bomb on an undefended japanese city. Three days later a second bomb was dropped, on a different city. Those bombings were war crimes. Civilian deaths are inevitable in warfare, but there is a crucial difference between killing civilians unintentionally and doing so deliberately. Maybe truman was right to drop the bombs, but that doesn't absolve him of his crimes.

A_FEW_POINTS_OF_INTERNATIONAL_LAW_GOVERNING_MODERN_WARFARE_%281904%29.jpg

https://theweek.com/articles/623559/how-justify-war-crime-hiroshima
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ima-and-Nagasaki-war-crimes-say-Japanese.html
https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/3032-anscombe-mr-trumans-degreepdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war

:peace:
 
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Jethro

Well-Known Member
I'm just hopeful that someone within the "Dear Leaders" regieme recognizes the foolishness and takes matters into thier own hands. Really would like to see a military coup arise.
 
Jethro,
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howie105

Well-Known Member
I'm just hopeful that someone within the "Dear Leaders" regieme recognizes the foolishness and takes matters into thier own hands. Really would like to see a military coup arise.

If the military in the US and China were to come to an arrangement it might be the easiest and least destructive way way out we could reasonably hope for.
 
howie105,

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
@Jethro don't you mean a regime change in North Korea? That's how I interpreted it.

Far as our current president I think we have a long 3 1/2 years to put up with this foolishness. I hope he doesn't win a second term. I don't have much faith in our voters in some areas of America.

America needs strong leadership that's true but we also need someone that's somewhat truthful and has good instincts. Someone that really wants to help Americans. Not someone who doesn't want to address hate groups unless he's absolutely made to do it. This is so against everything I believe in. This president doesn't have any empathy towards others, he is a shell of a person.

I feel we've been on a rollercoaster scary ride every since this president came into office. North Korea is a critical problem for the world. A nuclear bomb would be horrendous. I'm glad there are smart people that surround this president.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
https://theweek.com/articles/623559/how-justify-war-crime-hiroshima
However, the hundreds of thousands of civilians who died in Japan were not just collateral damage — their deaths were the goal. You don't need a degree in moral philosophy to recognize that deliberately murdering countless innocent civilians is a war crime.​

That's the point of the claim on the whole article. That the killing of the civilians was the goal. There are a ton of articles, books and other information out there as to the reason why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen as counterforce (military) targets and not countervalue (population). Many of them are from groups/publications that are not known for being US apologists. I believe the factors the targeting committee were to focus on:
  1. The range of the aircraft which would carry the bomb.
  2. The desirability of visual bombing in order to insure the most effective use of the bomb.
  3. Probable weather conditions in the target areas.
  4. Importance of having one primary and two secondary targets for each mission, so that if weather conditions prohibited bombing the target there would be at least two alternates.
  5. Selection of targets to produce the greatest military effect on the Japanese people and thereby most effectively shorten the war.
  6. The morale effect upon the enemy.
These led in turn to the following:
  1. Since the atomic bomb was expected to produce its greatest amount of damage by primary blast effect, and next greatest by fires, the targets should contain a large percentage of closely-built frame buildings and other construction that would be most susceptible to damage by blast and fire.
  2. The maximum blast effect of the bomb was calculated to extend over an area of approximately 1 mile in radius; therefore the selected targets should contain a densely built-up area of at least this size.
  3. The selected targets should have a high military strategic value.
  4. The first target should be relatively untouched by previous bombing, in order that the effect of a single atomic bomb could be determined.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ima-and-Nagasaki-war-crimes-say-Japanese.html
Describing the proposal for a national park to mark the attacks as "a very strange decision", Hiromichi Moteki, secretary general of the Society for the Dissemination of Historical Fact, said "This was absolutely a war crime".
Crazy site at http://www.sdh-fact.com/

Look to other...odd...but well-researched opinions of the group that has part of its mission ( http://www.sdh-fact.com/mission-statement/ ) to remedy the lies told by the vast Chinese propaganda machine claiming all kinds of Japanese atrocities in the run up to WWII. I didn't read all the items linked at the site but, from those I read (and the linking editing), my guess is the Society is a Japanese nationalist organization and not a historical one.

https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/files/3032-anscombe-mr-trumans-degreepdf
This one is harder to pin down on anything other than Truman is a doodoohead. The rest is philosophical angel counting. (Probably appropriate for an Ethics paper.) I think the basis for the peace is at hand theory:
In 1945, at the Potsdam conference in July, Stalin informed the American and British statesmen that he had received two requests from the Japanese to act as a mediator with a view to ending the war. He had refused.​

Even the author acknowledged it was the Japanese who did not agree with unconditional surrender as it would give us power over their emperor, so any outreach was killed by them.
It seems to be generally agreed that the Japanese were desperate enough to have accepted the Declaration but for their loyalty to the Emperor: the "terms" would certainly have permitted the allies to get rid of him if they chose. The Japanese refused the Declaration. In consequence, the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The decision to use them on people was Mr. Truman's.​

I know there are other articles, just as I know I can post any number coming to a generally different conclusion. One thing I do know, however, is that we are looking at it through the eyes where Japan is made up of old people, weird people, Gundam and Hello Kitty cuteness, rather than what the culture allowed around the time of the War.

Nazis: "Let's kill all the Jews!"
Around WWII Japanese: "Hold my sake."
 
Tranquility,
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Baron23

Well-Known Member
My opinion is that you're completely wrong about this, and there are many people that agree with me.

Well, yes, since you state it first, I had assumed that your opinion differed (??)

And my first thought is no matter how ludicrous an idea, you will find plenty of people supporting it, particularly on the internet.

I've never really understood the urge some folks have to constantly feel guilty about being an American. Well, that's not me and I don't apologize for that.

I think we have agreed to disagree and I, at least, am determined not to get into another hot political debate.

Cheers and best to you.
 
Baron23,

grokit

well-worn member
And my first thought is no matter how ludicrous an idea, you will find plenty of people supporting it, particularly on the internet.

I've never really understood the urge some folks have to constantly feel guilty about being an American. Well, that's not me and I don't apologize for that.
Is it really ludicrous, to lament the destruction of thousands of innocent lives for no reason?

Then sign me up for a subscription of ludicrous!

No need to feel guilty, you didn't make the decision to drop the bombs.
You're off the hook, so there's no need for you to apologize either.

It's very simple; this was a war crime, and truman is a war criminal.

It's about morals not politics. We could have let them surrender with honor. Instead we set the table for the future we are experiencing today, and discussing in this thread. Fuck the war machines on all sides.

:peace:
 

little maggie

Well-Known Member
Do we need a separate war crimes thread or something? I don't know all the factors that went into the bombing of Japan but yes it seems racist and a war crime. We would never have bombed Germany and invited their Nazi scientists to work for us. But the US won and that's how war crimes are defined. Not that there were war crimes lacking by the Germans and Japanese. But right now I'm more concerned about an impulsive president. I don't see past bombings, however unethical historically, to have been committed out of some impulsive power gesture.
 
little maggie,

howie105

Well-Known Member
Do we need a separate war crimes thread or something? I don't know all the factors that went into the bombing of Japan but yes it seems racist and a war crime. We would never have bombed Germany and invited their Nazi scientists to work for us. But the US won and that's how war crimes are defined. Not that there were war crimes lacking by the Germans and Japanese. But right now I'm more concerned about an impulsive president. I don't see past bombings, however unethical historically, to have been committed out of some impulsive power gesture.

The low art of fire bombing was a big attack form in and from Germany during WW2, even before bombers were in range of Japan. Cologne Nürnberg and Darmstadt (SP?) all spring to mind but there were many more. This isn't a poke at you little maggie just an observation from a different observer.
 
howie105,

Baron23

Well-Known Member
We would never have bombed Germany and invited their Nazi scientists to work for us.

Dresden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

The way to avoid atrocities is to avoid war. If your national interests are threatened sufficient to go to war, then one should attempt to defeat your enemy completely. This business of "surgical strikes" and "limited actions" is just pablum to sooth the souls of the bleeding hearts. The fact is that these are oxymoron and there is ALWAYS civilian death and destruction.

So, if its not fucking important enough for you to support that level of destruction, then its not important enough for you to go to war over. And, the corollary is true also, IMO.

Surgical strikes and the rest of that horseshit is for use by politicians in lulling the populace. Military people know differently.
 
Baron23,

florduh

Well-Known Member
Dresden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

The way to avoid atrocities is to avoid war. If your national interests are threatened sufficient to go to war, then one should attempt to defeat your enemy completely. This business of "surgical strikes" and "limited actions" is just pablum to sooth the souls of the bleeding hearts. The fact is that these are oxymoron and there is ALWAYS civilian death and destruction.

So, if its not fucking important enough for you to support that level of destruction, then its not important enough for you to go to war over. And, the corollary is true also, IMO.

Surgical strikes and the rest of that horseshit is for use by politicians in lulling the populace. Military people know differently.

What on Earth are you talking about? There absolutely is a difference between surgical strikes, and fire bombing the enemy's population center. Namely, the number of innocents who die. One causes vastly more to die. This is utilitarian philosophy 101.

Yes, even the most surgical strike will entail civilian collateral damage. But to argue that "it's all the same" is just not accurate. Total war kills more innocent people. But I do agree, avoiding all war is the best option. We should be beyond that at this point.
 
florduh,
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Baron23

Well-Known Member
There absolutely is a difference between surgical strikes, and fire bombing the enemy's population center. Namely, the number of innocents who die.

Ah, so now the discriminator is a simple matter of scale. Just how many civilians need to die for you to declare it a war crime?

Kind of reminds me of the guy who asked this gal if she would shag him for $100K. She said "of course". He then asked her if she would shag him for $10 and she said "what do you think I am, a whore" to which he replied "we have already established that and are now just negotiating the price".

I have been in the military, I have dropped the bombs, I know how badly awry that can go and awful it can be. You will find, if you consider what I'm saying with a bit more open of a mind, that I and many other veterans are the most war adverse people you will ever find.

That is why it is my personal belief that the only justification for military force is is when your national well being is fundamentally and critically threatened. In which circumstances a general war may be justified and your ideas about how sanitary that can be go out the window.

I feel certain that if you had fought up through the Philippines or were in the battle of Okinawa, you would view this subject very differently. By the by, might want to read up on the fire bombing of Tokyo in 1945.
:wave:
 
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florduh

Well-Known Member
@Baron23

I was just disagreeing with your statement that intentionally killing as many civilians as possible is the same thing as a surgical strike that unintentionally kills civilians. Intentions matter. So do the number of dead civilians.

I have no issue with your opinion that Hiroshima/Nagasaki aren't war crimes. That's debateable.

Your ideas about what constitute a war crime in a general war are laughable to me and I think can only arise in a swaddled environment removed from many of the harsher realities of life.

Not sure why you had to make this personal.
 
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little maggie

Well-Known Member
Dresden yes. But isn't that the exception to our destruction of civilians? Or deliberately massacring hundreds of civilians as we did in Korea. I think there's an embedded racism in which civilian populations the US chooses to destroy.
And I think that Trump is a representative of that point of view. I feel a bit out of place sometimes. I grew up in an era where Archie Bunker was a comic figure not a reflection of American attitudes.

Around the issue of guilt- what happens when everyone including the government refuses to accept responsibility for mass destruction?
 

MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
IMO, the nuking of Japan is on Hirohito. He started it and we had the right to end it ASAP.
Japan was given the message to unconditionally surrender or the alternative being "prompt and utter destruction". The Japanese response to this ultimatum was to ignore it. Within a week of the mass destruction, Japan surrendered--mission accomplished.
War is hell and if it's worth going in, you need to do some horrible things unfortunately.
In WW2, over 60 million people were killed :( on all sides
 
MinnBobber,

florduh

Well-Known Member
You are absolutely right and I edited that out. My apologies for that as well as for misunderstanding some of your position re: Hiroshima.

Cheers
No worries man.

Moving the discussion back to North Korea, Kimmy backed off his threat to bomb Guam. They make these outrageous threats every year, and they always back down.

To me, this reiterates that we don't need to go to war on the Korean Peninsula over this. Kimmy may have nukes. But he can never use them without committing suicide.

NK has held Seoul hostage for decades now. While the stakes have changed, the reality hasn't. We can't make a military move on NK without guaranteeing horrific casualties. I still hope China can assist in regime change. But in the meantime... deterrence works. The fact we're all alive today proves it.
 
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