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This Shit with North Korea is Getting More Than Just a Bit Scary.....

lwien

Well-Known Member
Trump says:



Immediately after this, NK issues a threat to hit Guam: http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/08/politics/north-korea-considering-guam-strike-trump/index.html

Now the big question is, how does Trump walk this back............or does he?

Don't know if any of you are old enough to remember the whole "duck and cover" drills we used to go through as kids back in the 50's but I just heard a report on CNN taking about Hawaii who is really concerned about this being that they are in NK's crosshairs. Their civil defense has just told their populace that if they hear air raid sirens, that they have 15 minutes to find cover and that if they are on the beach, that they should find a cave !!! WTF????
 

Abysmal Vapor

Supersniffer 2000 - robot fart detection device
USA foreign politics are getting out of hand. Trump is talking crap and trying to force China and South Korea to attack their neighbor who has chemical,biological and nuclear weapons and also is one of the leading economies ...Just ask yourself the question,"If Canada was South Korea ,would the US attack it ?" Also he backed out of the Weather Control agreement..,so clearly US politics doesnt care if the world goes on fire as long as they are keeping their American Lie alive... The US has invested millions in the war industry and weapons which if unused are just money wasted.. and i guess they picked North Korea as their next victim.. In the last 2 decades they are constantly finding new enemies to make war with... and for the last few years, the US managed to get on edge with Russia,China,South Korea,some crazy arabic countries.. which are thousands of miles away and i dont know if there is one legit reason that the US can feel endangered in any other way except economically by them..
I remember the war in Kosovo,Serbia ... (which is pea sized city compared to any US city) and they dumped there all their older model rockets,whos technology was going to run old,one of them even hit my Country by mistake,crashed into a guys house.. Also there is data that they have use weapons with weakend uranium,nature is ruined and they are having a drastic raise in cancer cases since then... The guys in Kosovo were so low tech,that it was a mockery to hit them even with old weapon tech..
Sry if i sounded too anti-US ,i am not,but this is outrageous,i cant believe that so many cool people are being lead by such majorly fucked up people ... and one of the reasons i try not to inform myself over politics in the latest years..
 
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kellya86

Herb gardener...
Some well placed assasinations would soon sort this mess out....

Im sure a government somewhere is discussing options.....
 
kellya86,
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Tranquility

Well-Known Member
If there is a problem with the US position, it does not have a real relationship to Trump. The issue with North Korea has reached a point where the exact fear multiple US administrations have uniformly stated for decades is imminent. (In global terms.) If Clinton would have been elected, the situation would be just as ripe for action. There is a decision to be made soon.

Is the US going to allow NK to fully weaponize its nuclear arsenal?

I think the answer is no.

You can argue if it is a fair question if you like or what the best path is; you can even argue about what the US is going to allow. But, I think the answer is no. That LOTS of paths have been tried to prevent it and they all seem to have lead us to here has me thinking the type of negotiations that have gone on in the past are not going to get restarted here.

For those in the rest of the world who think this issue is only parochial to the security of the US, what do you think others are going to do if NK gets and keeps nuclear capability? Do you think South Korea is simply going to allow the North to dictate to them militarily? No. They will develop nuclear capability also. Japan? Same thing. Will middle eastern states want to be left behind? States all over the world will acquire or create nuclear capability once the dam breaks on the recognition of the fecklessness of the international community. It will be a MAD, MAD world indeed.

There is a person I know who is often deployed on a ship that runs silent and runs deep that can drop as much boom as can be conceived by Man in fourteen 90 meter circles per launch in about 30 minutes after the decision is made. He leaves for normal deployment Thursday.

In Guam.
 

Abysmal Vapor

Supersniffer 2000 - robot fart detection device
If there is a problem with the US position, it does not have a real relationship to Trump. The issue with North Korea has reached a point where the exact fear multiple US administrations have uniformly stated for decades is imminent. (In global terms.) If Clinton would have been elected, the situation would be just as ripe for action. There is a decision to be made soon.

Is the US going to allow NK to fully weaponize its nuclear arsenal?

I think the answer is no.

You can argue if it is a fair question if you like or what the best path is; you can even argue about what the US is going to allow. But, I think the answer is no. That LOTS of paths have been tried to prevent it and they all seem to have lead us to here has me thinking the type of negotiations that have gone on in the past are not going to get restarted here.

For those in the rest of the world who think this issue is only parochial to the security of the US, what do you think others are going to do if NK gets and keeps nuclear capability? Do you think South Korea is simply going to allow the North to dictate to them militarily? No. They will develop nuclear capability also. Japan? Same thing. Will middle eastern states want to be left behind? States all over the world will acquire or create nuclear capability once the dam breaks on the recognition of the fecklessness of the international community. It will be a MAD, MAD world indeed.

There is a person I know who is often deployed on a ship that runs silent and runs deep that can drop as much boom as can be conceived by Man in fourteen 90 meter circles per launch in about 30 minutes after the decision is made. He leaves for normal deployment Thursday.

In Guam.
I was talking about Trump cause he keeps on posting arrogant threats against Russia/China on his FB and the media..
Anyway why do you think that the US are more concerned about world peace and existence than the North Korea or any other country ? I think that every country should have the right to use nuclear weapons and technology since other do so.. There is enough weapon power already on this planet to rip it apart,so i think it cannot get any worse... Einstein and other scientist foresaw this scenario,and the only ease of the situation,was that if everybody owns this technology,the world will be afraid to go to war cause it will mean the end of it..
Do you think that US would have attacked any of those countries they did in the last few decades if they had Nukes to fire back ?
 
Abysmal Vapor,

HighSeasSailor

Well-Known Member
Anyway why do you think that the US are more concerned about world peace and existence than the North Korea or any other country ?

Ok, what? Do you know the first thing about the DPRK?

Also, are you suggesting that it would be a better world if Afghanistan had nuclear weapons so the US couldn't have invaded, or what? You think the Taliban should have nuclear weapons?

You must not like your way of life very much.
 
HighSeasSailor,

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
The good news is nuclear weapons do not actually exist, it's just a psychological concept used to perpetuate fear mongering and control. The lesson poker teaches is you don't actually need the best hand to win, you just need the best poker face, and nothing, I repeat NOTHING, provides a stronger bluff than the idea of a bomb which could single-handedly wipe out entire countries or continents.

Of course this post will be immediately discredited for being a contrarian, but such is life. I always suggest further research of issues than what is just skimmed off for television or his-story books. Nuclear weapons is one of the greatest facades ever conceived.
 
invertedisdead,

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
I was talking about Trump cause he keeps on posting arrogant threats against Russia/China on his FB and the media..
Anyway why do you think that the US are more concerned about world peace and existence than the North Korea or any other country ? I think that every country should have the right to use nuclear weapons and technology since other do so.. There is enough weapon power already on this planet to rip it apart,so i think it cannot get any worse... Einstein and other scientist foresaw this scenario,and the only ease of the situation,was that if everybody owns this technology,the world will be afraid to go to war cause it will mean the end of it..
Do you think that US would have attacked any of those countries they did in the last few decades if they had Nukes to fire back ?
As a general rule, I like the argument. I am an advocate for the 2nd amendment in my country and some would say an armed society is a polite society.

I recognize such freedom has a cost. Sometimes, a nutbar might shoot another(s) and the militia/community has to stop them. Some lives might be lost.

Not millions.

In a rational world, everyone having nuclear capability might prevent nuclear war. Are you saying the world is rational?
 
Tranquility,

Abysmal Vapor

Supersniffer 2000 - robot fart detection device
I am just saying that everyone is irrational,that's why i dont think that anyone should own that kind of power,but since it is already a fact i dont see it getting any worse..
@HighSeasSailor Sry if i you dont like my opinion but what i think is that your point of view is influenced by the stuff you've been fed in the news by your government which demonizes any country that threatens them economically.. Truth is that it is just people like you and me there , trying to to make a living under someone's thumb .How do you expect other countries to compete with the US,without owning huge war arsenal, otherwise they could be invaded just like those rich with PETROL countries..
I will stop to post in this thread cause i see that it is a sensitive subject..
I am sorry if i stirred trouble with my opinion and offended anyone's feelings , please ignore it if you dont like it,i respect your opinions as they are.. and have nothing against them,only wanted to share my thoughts :)). Peace !
 
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HighSeasSailor

Well-Known Member
@HighSeasSailor Sry if i you dont like my opinion but what i think that your point of view is influenced by the stuff you've been fed in the news by your government which demonizes any country that threatens them economically.. How do you expect other countries to compete with the US,without owning huge war arsenal, otherwise they could be invaded just like those rich with PETROL countries..
I will stop to post in this thread cause i see that it is a sensitive subject..
I am sorry if i stirred trouble with my opinion and offended anyone's feelings , please ignore it if you dont like it,i respect your opinions as they are.. and have nothing against them,only wanted to share my thoughts :)). Peace !

No, you haven't offended me, you've only said things that are unbelievably ignorant. I've actually done considerable research into North Korea because the plight of its people moves me to great sympathy.

First, threatens us economically? North Korea is one of the most unbelievably destitute places on the face of the planet. The country has faced repeated famines due to inability to produce food - several North Koreans who escaped to South Korea commented that people were eating everything from tree bark to shoes to try to stay alive. Many or most people do not have electricity at home, and petrol is something even the more powerful party members don't normally have access to, because it's not an oil producing country and embargoes and sanctions have completely cut fuel imports for a very long time. All thanks to the Dear Leader, who prioritizes an overinflated 1950s era military over feeding his people.

By contrast, the US is the most powerful economy on the planet, with a GDP greater than the entire EU combined (yes, even before Brexit). China could be considered an economic rival, but certainly not the DPRK. There's no possible motive for us to give a shit about North Korea's economy.

I sincerely think you don't know the first thing about the subject and, ironically, are just repeating several confused and unrelated media snippits. North Korea isn't some misunderstood country trying to be free.
 
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Tranquility

Well-Known Member
I am just saying that everyone is irrational,that's why i dont think that anyone should own that kind of power,but since it is already a fact i dont see it getting any worse..
@HighSeasSailor Sry if i you dont like my opinion but what i think is that your point of view is influenced by the stuff you've been fed in the news by your government which demonizes any country that threatens them economically.. Truth is that it is just people like you and me there , trying to to make a living under someone's thumb .How do you expect other countries to compete with the US,without owning huge war arsenal, otherwise they could be invaded just like those rich with PETROL countries..
I will stop to post in this thread cause i see that it is a sensitive subject..
I am sorry if i stirred trouble with my opinion and offended anyone's feelings , please ignore it if you dont like it,i respect your opinions as they are.. and have nothing against them,only wanted to share my thoughts :)). Peace !
Just because some (including me) disagree with some of your thoughts does not mean they don't have value from their sharing. Right or wrong from a factual perspective is only one valuation. That YOU think it gives it value. Sharing it increases the value. I am reminded of a quote of AA Milne (aka Winnie-the-pooh):
When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
That being said (With full acknowledgement of satire):
 

KeroZen

Chronic vapaholic
There is always an economic incentive behind any war: it generates huge profits for arms manufacturers and it acts as the best possibly imaginable showcase for them.

"You want to see how well our latest intelligent homing missile works? Easy, here's a video of it obliterating a real target during a real conflict."
 

howie105

Well-Known Member
I think we seldom see the truth of most international situations because we seldom get the whole truth. Countries, corporations and individuals all have their own viewpoints. Objectivity is something we all think/hope we have but in the end we are products of our countries, corporations and cultures. Hope for peace and get right with those you care for.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
There is always an economic incentive behind any war: it generates huge profits for arms manufacturers and it acts as the best possibly imaginable showcase for them.

"You want to see how well our latest intelligent homing missile works? Easy, here's a video of it obliterating a real target during a real conflict."
Koch would agree with you. He recently said (and was fakeNEWSed with editing) in Time:
“I think we can have growth rates in excess of 4%. When I’m talking about growth rates, I’m not talking about that GDP, which counts poison gas the same as it counts penicillin,” the 79-year-old industrialist said, veering off his prepared remarks. “What a monstrous measure this is. If we make more bombs, the GDP goes up — particularly if we explode them.”​
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
Trump needs to quit improvising on twitter making castrophic statements. This will be his downfall and Americas if we're not careful. Take that fucking phone away from him and stop his twitter account!
Nuclear weapons aren't something that we can just talk about unless we are prepared to use them. I never thought everything would come to that.

I'm really tired of this president scaring the shit out of everyone, he's fucking reckless.
If there was a war they might have to impose the draft. I think most Americans don't want to go back to that. Trump wasn't willing to go to war but he's quick to want to send our soldiers to war.

I personally don't have the answers but I'm troubleed that we have a president that keeps saying inflammatory things on twitter and possible making things worse rather than better. He's boxing himself in with his remarks taking America along with him.

Kim is a mentally off balanced dictator and unpredictable. So Trump stop saying crazy shit! Guam looks like a nice place I would hate to see it blown to smitherines or thousands of people nuked. Trump doesn't like to read but he needs to crack open a couple of history books and see what a nuclear bomb does in devastation.

Fuck! I live 60 mi from Seattle WA one of the possible target areas along the Pacific coast. That's too close for comfort.
 
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HighSeasSailor

Well-Known Member
Well, I will make this one last comment. I've read a good deal about North Korea.

The fact that the DPRK has been suffered by the world at large to exist is shameful. This is not some downtrodden ethnic group struggling for freedom, it's an entire population held captive by a dictator so off the charts crazy that I think it's hard for many westerners to believe that such a person is actually in power. Just as an example, the current head of state, Kim Jong-un, has executed a number of his own state officials using fucking anti-aircraft guns like some kind of James Bond villain. For the militarily uneducated, an anti-aircraft gun is an automatic cannon that blasts out a storm of metal in hopes of sending enough into the sky to hit things flying around at hundreds of miles/km per hour. Using one on a human being is ludicrous overkill, the equivalent of dropping an Acme Anvil or a piano on someone's head like in a cartoon, except they explode into a burst of blood and guts in real life. I cite a British source, so no one can blame American "propaganda" for this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...d-five-security-officials-anti-aircraft-guns/

Here's an entire encyclopedia article on the North Korean famine of the 90s; I use the English wiki but you're free to read it in Swedish, Polish, or Vietnamese if you think the English article is biased:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine


Here's another British source, describing life in North Korean prison camps. Spoiler alert: it includes being tortured, raped, worked to death, and maybe set on fire, for the heinous crime of questioning the Kim regime:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-life-like-punishment-execution-a7710696.html

Here's Human Rights Watch's report on North Korea:

https://www.hrw.org/asia/north-korea

From that report, I quote:

"A 2014 UN Commission of Inquiry found that abuses in North Korea were without parallel in the contemporary world. They include extermination, murder, enslavement, torture, imprisonment, rape, forced abortions, and other sexual violence. North Korea operates secretive prison camps where perceived opponents of the government are sent to face torture and abuse, starvation rations, and forced labor. Fear of collective punishment is used to silence dissent. There is no independent media, functioning civil society, or religious freedom."

And more directly to the topic, here's something on North Korea's military:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Army

"As of 2016, with 5,889,000 paramilitary personnel, it is the largest paramilitary organization on Earth. This number represents 25% of the North Korean population."

"Most analyses of North Korea’s defense sector, however, estimate that defense spending constitutes between one-quarter and one-third of all government spending."

The article goes on to explain that due to poor economy, lack of technology, and inability to afford new equipment or even training, the KPA has generally shifted to asymmetrical warfare tactics - particularly stockpiling chemical weapons (and now nuclear weapons), digging tunnels under the DMZ, and utilizing what hardware it does have in the most destructive, if suicidal, manner possible.

I also take this opportunity to remind the reader of the famine described above. A country that can't even stay fed spends nearly a third of its GDP on weapons, now to include nuclear weapons.

Finally:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_involving_North_Korea

Ample evidence that North Korea has a LONG history of bellicose behavior, in particular towards its neighbors South Korea and Japan, both of which are allies of the US. Further reading would reveal that North Korea has long used such threats as bargaining chips; it makes insanely overstated threats, and in order to essentially shut them up, the US, UN, and others, have sent massive amounts of humanitarian aid, allowing the Kim regime to continue to prop itself up in spite of constantly imminent collapse.

Yes, the US sends humanitarian aid:

https://www.voanews.com/a/united-states-humanitarian-aid-goes-to-north-korea/3692811.html

Because believe it or not, Americans actually want people to be free and happy. The image of us as a bunch of oil hungry warmongers is a bullshit European stereotype. Don't listen to everything the news tells you, chief.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/north-korea-food-aid-fund

Not that good turns aren't repaid with evil. I leave you to chew on that: just how long are you prepared to sit on your thumbs while the innocent people of North Korea suffer under a hereditary dictatorship that uses 1984 as a user's manual?

Things got this bad because nobody was willing to do shit about it. We've been afraid of the consequences of action for so long that we've forgotten the horrible price Koreans pay for our inaction, and the fact that this ain't going away. Wishing we'd all just get along in a hippie-dippy utopia won't accomplish anything, and in fact it's what got us here, with a nuclear gun to our head and a psychotic little fat man who thinks he's a god with his finger on the trigger.

It will be even worse tomorrow, and the day after that. People will continue dying, and eventually a human catastrophe on the Korean peninsula is inevitable. DPRK is not a sustainable government, and it's offensively ignorant to wish for it to continue to exist - it's in the exact same class as wishing ISIS would form its own state and keep right on wiping out the people and monuments it doesn't agree with. I don't wish for this, but sooner or later, the shit will hit the fan, and the longer we wait, the further it's going to get flung.
 
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seaofgreens

My Mind Is Free
All we can do is keep leaning on China. It is obvious that North Korea is not going to stop, and it is also not possible for the US to economically cripple North Korea. Only China has the power to force the North to stop their nuclear ambitions, and that is a tenuous idea.

I think the only viable option is to sit down with China and negotiate what North Korea will look like post regime. They have to be comfortable, and then a joint military effort will take care of the issue within a few days.

What will very likely happen is that North Korea will just get their nuclear capability while we hiss from our side of the world, and then, and only then will they come back to the negotiating table, swinging their dicks, and smirking at our idiocy. Then the US will hand North Korea billions of dollars in aid to get them to agree to "limit," their nuclear capabilities. And then it will be a springboard for other countries like Iran to renew their own efforts so they can do the same.

Just calling it. 90% likely to happen.

And while I am liberal leaning, I think the answer is not seeking "peace talks." Not in this instance. We need to have done something about North Korea fifteen years ago, and now it is past time to decide and ACT....
 
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