Discontinued ThermoVape Evolution

[2clicker]

Thanks 2clicker I use mcmastercarr.com too, just ordered the wrong size tubing. Much appreciated!

anytime!

Thanks for the pointer; I'm looking for the equivalent of an Evo insulating sleeve for my DART, and this may be the perfect thing! (The Evo insulating core is too big to fit the DART core).

glad i could help. oh and nice post above. i find that i can still load more than enough even using the UFO'd MPs. the UFO holding the load in the sweet spot gives me excellent performance.

 

[2clicker]

*edit*
mods please delete. i received and error message saying that the server did not respond and to try again. so i did and it posted twice.

 

[Haywood]

anytime! glad i could help.

oh and nice post above. i find that i can still load more than enough even using the UFO'd MPs. the UFO holding the load in the sweet spot gives me excellent performance.

It's a really nice setup. I load the core to the top without any compression at all, tap the bottom of the battery holder on the palm of my hand while holding a finger on top of the core, and the load compresses down about 3/4 of the depth that the UFO is about to take up. No direct tamping required (though I miss using the TV tool's bottom to tamp the load down, it didn't do a better job than what I just described). Putting the mouthpiece with UFO into the core presses the load down the remaining 2mm, and Bob's your uncle. I happen to have a second Evo core (and bunches of mouthpieces), so sometimes I'll preload a bare Evo core, put a cap on the top, and put it in my pocket. That way when the primary one is reduced to ABV, I can just put the second one on in its place, without having to clean or reload or carry additional stash at that moment. Sort of makes up for the slightly smaller load...

I agree with you about the "Sweet Spot", and it's my experience that keeping the load in the bottom half of the heat chamber is really the secret to getting the most out of an Evo. And also, if I really stretch it, and discount that the direct mouthpiece-to-core method isn't necessary for most people, I can guess that the load NOT sitting in the sweet spot is why I had less than wonderful results with the standard sleeve setup. One thing I noticed while initially investigating was that the nice cylindrical load of herb was sitting partially out of the core when I took the sleeve off. It turns out that as soon as I'd take my first hit on a fresh load, the suction would "slide" the load up toward the mouthpiece, and there's a few (3?) mm gap between the top of the core and the bottom of the sleeve's UFO. When the load slides up, the bottom half (third?) of the heat chamber winds up empty, half the load is in the top part of the core, and half is in the gap between the top of the core and the bottom of the sleeve. Since the "Sweet Spot" appears to be the bottom half of the core, this can't be a great way to get the most out of your Evo...

I seem to recall that at the beginning of the "alternate methods" discussion, someone mentioned putting a tiny screen in the top of core to hold the load down, and how that allowed them to put half a load in, and still have it work with the sleeve. But who knows why; the method we both use works just fine for me, with no additional effort, and I'm happy.

 

[TheDudeNextDoor]

I am using the rotary switch method and keeping the battery contacted through the entire session, which works great for the Evo. Question, though: Is draining the battery at a constant like that harder on the batteries than the whole on/off/on method?

 

[OF]

Is draining the battery at a constant like that harder on the batteries than the whole on/off/on method?

Yes, it is. By not putting gaps for cool down in heat will build up faster and higher...in the vape and the battery. Can't have one without the other. This is another of the reasons IMRs are so important here, lower drop so less self heating for the same output.

We're going to kill the batteries soon enough the way we hammer 'em anyway, all it can do is hasten that end. In a way they are expendable, when you buy them they'll only vape a few to several hundred cycles with each cycle say two bowls of .25 grams each? Say 400 times two times .25 grams, 200? Maybe only half that? 100 or 200 grams will kill a battery. So every gram has a dime tax for the battery worst case? I can live with that.

I say, 'enjoy the sucker, that's what you gave your money for'.

OF

 

[2clicker]

I agree with you about the "Sweet Spot", and it's my experience that keeping the load in the bottom half of the heat chamber is really the secret to getting the most out of an Evo. And also, if I really stretch it, and discount that the direct mouthpiece-to-core method isn't necessary for most people, I can guess that the load NOT sitting in the sweet spot is why I had less than wonderful results with the standard sleeve setup. One thing I noticed while initially investigating was that the nice cylindrical load of herb was sitting partially out of the core when I took the sleeve off. It turns out that as soon as I'd take my first hit on a fresh load, the suction would "slide" the load up toward the mouthpiece, and there's a few (3?) mm gap between the top of the core and the bottom of the sleeve's UFO. When the load slides up, the bottom half (third?) of the heat chamber winds up empty, half the load is in the top part of the core, and half is in the gap between the top of the core and the bottom of the sleeve. Since the "Sweet Spot" appears to be the bottom half of the core, this can't be a great way to get the most out of your Evo...

absolutely. my findings exactly. if im not mistaken that was how it was designed to work and because the load rises and falls with each pull, stirring is not needed. however, like you i found that the load needs to be held against the bottom of the bowl to really produce. not stirring does not seem to be an issue even when the load isnt moving. i get very evenly browned ABV every time with no stirring at all.

i have also considered getting a few cores to pre load. however i think im waiting to see what TV is working on.

 

[Pipes]

Yes, it is. By not putting gaps for cool down in heat will build up faster and higher...in the vape and the battery. Can't have one without the other. This is another of the reasons IMRs are so important here, lower drop so less self heating for the same output.

We're going to kill the batteries soon enough the way we hammer 'em anyway, all it can do is hasten that end. In a way they are expendable, when you buy them they'll only vape a few to several hundred cycles with each cycle say two bowls of .25 grams each? Say 400 times two times .25 grams, 200? Maybe only half that? 100 or 200 grams will kill a battery. So every gram has a dime tax for the battery worst case? I can live with that.

I say, 'enjoy the sucker, that's what you gave your money for'.

OF

Enjoying the sucker is the best advise.
Thought I'd add something to this. While playing with different coils and resistances I found the resistance of the winding increases when hot. Always knew this but found it actually rises like 1/3 which is substantial. I found a 3 ohm coil will run at around 4 ohms when red hot. Kind of a guestimate but did some quick measurements right after power removed and still glowing. Drops back down fairly quickly, therefore would impact the discharge rate as well.
Just throwing that in to add some more variables to the question...
Lots of trade offs indeed.

Pipes

 

[OF]

Enjoying the sucker is the best advise.
Thought I'd add something to this. While playing with different coils and resistances I found the resistance of the winding increases when hot. Always knew this but found it actually rises like 1/3 which is substantial.

Excellent point, although some of the alloys used for this kind of stuff are carefully made to limit (or in some cases nearly eliminate) this "positive temperature coefficient" as in some cases it's desired to make them self regulating (Tungsten light bulb filaments are a classic example), at other times it only screws things up. If you know the alloy it can be looked up.

1/3 seems like a lot off hand, but it's a ppm/degree C thing and we're talking about a lot of degrees C.....

Thanks

OF

 

[Pipes]

Excellent point, although some of the alloys used for this kind of stuff are carefully made to limit (or in some cases nearly eliminate) this "positive temperature coefficient" as in some cases it's desired to make them self regulating (Tungsten light bulb filaments are a classic example), at other times it only screws things up. If you know the alloy it can be looked up.

1/3 seems like a lot off hand, but it's a ppm/degree C thing and we're talking about a lot of degrees C.....

Thanks

OF

Yeah, I though so too. Was expecting a minimal difference as well. Took me by surprise and repeated a few times. Measured 3 ohm cool, heated till good and hot and with ohm meter still attached removed the power. Meter took 2-3 seconds to self calibrate and would get 3.8 or so and dropping quick. So guestimating 4 or so ohms. Could look up the coefficiient I guess. (Kanthal 32 AWG type A)
Edit2: just looked it up. At 1300 degrees 1.06 ?? I'm confused. Maybe not reading it right?



Pipes

 

[OF]

Meter took 2-3 seconds to self calibrate and would get 3.8 or so and dropping quick. So guestimating 4 or so ohms. Could look up the coefficiient I guess. (Kanthal 32 AWG type A)
Edit2: just looked it up. At 1300 degrees 1.06 ?? I'm confused. Maybe not reading it right?

That number means it should be 6% higher at temperature (since it's positive), pretty good, a hallmark of these alloys.

Something else is in play here, most likely with your configuration. Perhaps thermal induced offset voltages due to different metals ('thermocouple effect')? It won't take many mV to make a mess of the data. Your DMM is probably running at base (typically 200 mV) range. So 10 mV is 'read' as a whole Ohm on a 200 Ohm range.

If you want to wade into this fun stuff, you should set up a 'four point' system. Drive a known current through the element and measure the voltage at the terminals as best you can then calculate the resistance. This is, of course, how your Ohmmeter works (changes currents to change ranges). In the lab you'd just use the same configuration to read very small currents (to keep heating to a minimum) followed by full current (working temperature). Ohmmeters will be problematical.

OF

 

[Pipes]

Dang, now that helps to explain it. As usual OF, your on the ball with this stuff.
The 6% is more of what would be expected, that makes better sense. And good to know.

I'll keep my waders in the closest for now, as I trust the factories publicized specs.

Thanks,
Pipes

 

[TheDudeNextDoor]

I have absolutely no idea what you all are talking about.

 

[Dreamerr]

I have absolutely no idea what you all are talking about.

I never know what they are talking about. With all my degrees these guys make me feel dumb. I still read and try to learn but I am not sure why.

 

[Pipes]

It's OK, just some electrical gabber.

There was a question regarding what is best efficiency wise while using the EVO.
Is it better to keep unit running verses only pushing it "on" and waiting for warm-up each time.
OF answered and I added an additional variable which is the load (resistance) change while hot compared to not hot.

A comparison would be the extra gas it takes to start your car compared to keeping it running for that extra time. The question been how long before it becomes better to turn off and wait. Let's say it would not be worth it at a stop light but worth it if grabbing a coffee.

The conclusion in this case, for this variable been a 6% savings which is not really much but worth noting. My original 30% must have been skewed somehow with possible reasons OF pointed out. (that's where it got complicated)

It is a very good question but in the end I think it depends on the time between hits which would answer the battery life aspect as well as the added physical battery heat for keeping it pinned.

Hope this makes a it bit clearer.

Pipes

 

[2clicker]

love this thread

 

[UpUpandAway]

Hahaha, word. A lot of this stuff is over my head. I feel like I'm learning a little bit, tho.

Keep the info coming guys!

 

[Kofa]

So does the low voltage version really have a better battery life? If so, does it still work as well?

Thx

 

[Nick Again]

So does the low voltage version really have a better battery life? If so, does it still work as well?

Thx

This has been beaten to death, but one large factor seems to always be ignored.

In my opinion (maybe Tim has real numbers ) it isn't so much that the LV or SV versions use more or less power as much as the fact that a single "large" cell will usually be more efficient (in terms of storing energy) than will two smaller cells - e.g. An "UltraMax"can hold a 1600mAh cell at 3.7 volts (i.e 5.92 VAh) or two 700mAh 3.2 volt cells (i.e. 4.48vVAh) - NOTE, I purposely didn't use the convention of 1 VA = 1 Watt. When we "downgrade" these cells as a result of high current discharging, the advantage tilts even more strongly toward the single larger cell.

I'd be willing to bet that the LV versions actually use a measurable greater amount of power than the SVs to perform a given task (e.g. "preheat" is less efficient in power use since we're radiating external heat for a longer time). However, overall a TV system which is built containing LV parts will have (typically) longer "battery life" (OF has often repeated 10% "faster" for SVs and 10% "longer" for LVs - I see, without derating the batteries, a nearly 30% "raw" advantage to the LV _system_, yet I'd expect that OF's numbers are correct).

Oh yea, the second question: In my experience, LV or SV work about the same - but that's been said here many times before.

-NDA

 

[OF]

NOTE, I purposely didn't use the convention of 1 VA = 1 Watt. When we "downgrade" these cells as a result of high current discharging, the advantage tilts even more strongly toward the single larger cell.

However, overall a TV system which is built containing LV parts will have (typically) longer "battery life" (OF has often repeated 10% "faster" for SVs and 10% "longer" for LVs - I see, without derating the batteries, a nearly 30% "raw" advantage to the LV _system_, yet I'd expect that OF's numbers are correct).

Actually the 10% number for battery life is fairly conservative. IIRC it was a little over that for Revolution/DART and closer to 20% with Evolution. I agree, it's energy density (Wh per cubic inch) that drives it, the 'weak link' being the RCR123As which actually deliver something like 550 mAh under the heavy load. Finding documentation to back up the 700 mAh rating proved fruitless. It's not an easy measurement to make, since the cutoff was something like 'didn't make full temperature in XX seconds'. At that point the SV version was dropping fast (easy to determine) but LV was 'soft' and could easily have given a few more hits.

I'm not sure what's up with VA and Watts. With DC (no power factor correction) the two are the same? It's only an AC system with a reactive component where there's a difference. Here I think the two interchange, FWIW.

OF

 

[Nick Again]

I'm not sure what's up with VA and Watts. With DC (no power factor correction) the two are the same? It's only an AC system with a reactive component where there's a difference. Here I think the two interchange, FWIW.

OF

You are entirely correct about 1VA == 1W for DC without a reactive load. I was concerned some people might be familiar enough with UPSs (computer or otherwise) to get confused (and yea, my many 1500VA 120v A/C units can only supply about 1100W - different manufacturers sometimes play games with conversions from the 177v A/C peaks and, of course, rate for a non-reactive load despite marketing the products for operating mostly transformer powered equipment). Just another case of "specmanship" causing confusion in the marketplace.

-NDA

EDIT:

Finding documentation to back up the 700 mAh rating proved fruitless.

I can't find Tenergy's test data from the RCR123As, but the sheet for their LiFePO4 18650 shows they derived ratings using only a .3C discharge rate (i.e. about 1/3 Amp for that cell) - Here are some more detailed curves for the LiFePO4 18650 (with as low as a .2C discharge rate):
http://www.all-battery.com/.../lifepo4/18650P-1100%20Data%20Sheet.pdf
Notice how much more quickly the cells lose capacity when cycled with 10C discharges and that cycle life is based upon 1C discharges (had to get that 2K number somehow ) - I'll guess the RCR123As are similar (if I could find a spec sheet).

 

[UpUpandAway]

I did a bunch of experimenting with the Evo setup and settled on what works the best for me. It required modifying the standard Delrin Insulating Sleeve and switching to a UFO based extended Delrin mouthpiece.

@ Haywood- How does your modded insulating sleeve affect the performance of your evo?

I understand that you chopped it in order to connect the mp directly to the evo heating core; did this produce a better vape experience/clouds for you? How is it compared to running the evo w/o the sleeve?

 

[Haywood]

@ Haywood- How does your modded insulating sleeve affect the performance of your evo?

I understand that you chopped it in order to connect the mp directly to the evo heating core; did this produce a better vape experience/clouds for you? How is it compared to running the evo w/o the sleeve?

The significant difference for me was the direct connection of the mouthpiece to the core. I haven't really noticed any difference between using it with the modified sleeve or "bare", other than it's really really really much easier to burn myself when I don't use the modified sleeve. I haven't done much testing with regard to using it without the sleeve though.

 

[VolcAnTV]

@ theDude_next-door
Is there any insight on using a 1765o iMR 1200-mah.

Are you looking for something similar to powerpax for a different battery?

 

[TheDudeNextDoor]

Hmm...not sure what you are asking, Volcantv. I use the batterty that TV sells specifically for the TV Evo. I don't understand all the ins-and-outs of batts like OF and some of the others around here. Maybe someone else can ring in here?

 

[TheDudeNextDoor]

Hmm...not sure what you are asking, Volcantv. I use the batterty that TV sells specifically for the TV Evo. I don't understand all the ins-and-outs of batts like OF and some of the others around here. Maybe someone else can ring in here?