Discontinued Thermovape Cera (Original thread, closed because of chaos)

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green2brown

Well-Known Member
I've read through this thread, though I never read through the T1 thread, and I just want to make sure my understanding of the Cera is correct because I'm a little confused. So, when you turn the Cera on the heating element heats up to a set temperature, and then you can descrease or increase temp with the speed of your draw? And while the unit itself becomes hotter to the touch the longer it's on, the heating element stays at a steady temp? So, hypothetically speaking because I know this isn't the best technique, if I leave my Cera running for 15 min, and only take a hit every couple min using the same draw speed, there's no risk of combustion and I can get an evenly golden brown ABV? My confusion stems a bit from OF's post when he said that using a "worst case technique" resulted in what sounds like overly roasted ABV being "maybe 20% black." I guess I'm just confused as to WHY the ABV was so dark if the heater doesn't rise in temp along with the outside of the unit. Was it due to reeeaaally slow inhalations somewhat overheating the herb? And what temperature does the heater run at?
 
green2brown,

jambandphan03

in flavor country
Actually it seems like a input rating, the changer is powered by a USB port, there'd be no reason to have a USB charge port on it.

OF

It does say OUTPUT at the USB port, I'm pretty sure that is for charging via USB, and reads on the bottom txt: USB output 5v===0.5A

Input reads 12v===1A
 
jambandphan03,

Pipes

Addicted DIY Enthusiast
Accessory Maker
Yep, they're talking USB port output, not charger output. It's 600mA (or less) it seems there (where it counts).

If that's OK for you will have to remain your call, I've no free advice for your situation I'm afraid.



Actually it seems like a input rating, the changer is powered by a USB port, there'd be no reason to have a USB charge port on it.

OF
Hey OF, I was close to pulling the trigger on the XTar charger myself. Seems like a good deal as comes with 2 Panasonic 3100 mAh batteries as well.
Now you have me confused, if you look at the picture of the back it does state 500 mA X2 or 1000 mA X2. But says 600 mA other places. I think the USB out just an added accessory. It also states it's a "smart" charger which capable of going to trickle charge.
Definitely a little fuzzy area. Guess I'll hold off till some feedback comes back.

Pipes
 

OF

Well-Known Member
So, hypothetically speaking because I know this isn't the best technique, if I leave my Cera running for 15 min, and only take a hit every couple min using the same draw speed, there's no risk of combustion and I can get an evenly golden brown ABV? My confusion stems a bit from OF's post when he said that using a "worst case technique" resulted in what sounds like overly roasted ABV being "maybe 20% black." I guess I'm just confused as to WHY the ABV was so dark if the heater doesn't rise in temp along with the outside of the unit. Was it due to reeeaaally slow inhalations somewhat overheating the herb? And what temperature does the heater run at?

You are misreading me it seems. I'm obviously not being clear enough. You are right, if you let it run without pulling the load should not burn. The heater temperature is quite high, I'm sure over 1000F, but heat to the load is transferred by convection, not conduction. The exact temperature is not really important.

Worst case IMO is wasting power with excessive idles and overvaping the load. Even that poor technique gives good (by most standards) of complete vaping with no combustion. It was dark precisely because I was hitting it.

Do you think this battery would be okay for the Cera ?

Without trying I can't say. If I had no other options I'd probably try it. For a 'best bet' the factory recommended one gets the nod from me. Another factor is a lot of junk batteries (like repackaged used units from failed laptop power packs) show up on EBay.....

OF
 

Dreamerr

Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
I am sorry if this offends anyone so take it as a real question cause it is. Why if you are scrapping pennies together to get this cera you don't collect enough to make it work as made? I don't understand the extra 20 bucks for the charger and wanting to buy a cheaper one. I am not talking about using one you already have cause you can always get the "correct" better performing one at a later date. This has confused me all over this site. I see people buying really expensive stuff with a huge shipping charge but then say I don't want to spend a few bucks more on X. The shipping charges is what bothers me on most purchases.

I really am just trying to understand a mindset and not trying to do whatever else you might imagine. This is something that always boggled my mind. Not unlike people who can't afford food and they go out and buy scratch-offs/powerball, liquor, and ciggs.:shrug:
 

OF

Well-Known Member
Hey OF, I was close to pulling the trigger on the XTar charger myself. Seems like a good deal as comes with 2 Panasonic 3100 mAh batteries as well.
Now you have me confused, if you look at the picture of the back it does state 500 mA X2 or 1000 mA X2. But says 600 mA other places. I think the USB out just an added accessory. It also states it's a "smart" charger which capable of going to trickle charge.
Definitely a little fuzzy area. Guess I'll hold off till some feedback comes back.

Hey, I've got a great idea....you should get one and figure it out! Then tell us so we'll all know.

How exactly to do that I'm not sure, but I have confidence in you.....

I am sorry if this offends anyone so take it as a real question cause it is. Why if you are scrapping pennies together to get this cera you don't collect enough to make it work as made? I don't understand the extra 20 bucks for the charger and wanting to buy a cheaper one. I am not talking about using one you already have cause you can always get the "correct" better performing one at a later date. This has confused me all over this site. I see people buying really expensive stuff with a huge shipping charge but then say I don't want to spend a few bucks more on X. The shipping charges is what bothers me on most purchases.

I really am just trying to understand a mindset and not trying to do whatever else you might imagine. This is something that always boggled my mind. Not unlike people who can't afford food and they go out and buy scratch-offs/powerball, liquor, and ciggs.:shrug:

Excellent thoughts once again, Dreamerr. To me it's bordering on 'penny wise and pound foolish' but these are other people's decisions based on their conditions not yours and mine. I'm glad I'm not forced into such decisions at this point in life. I wish it was so for them of course as I'm sure we all do.

I know how bad I'd feel if some trusting soul made a bad decision based on half baked advice from me.

The best we can do is probably offer them as much honest guidance as we can offer?

OF
 

jambandphan03

in flavor country
Personally, I already own 2 chargers, so if I can avoid adding a 3rd by doing a little research, I am all for it... it's really not so much about spending more $ as much as buying something I already have and works (assuming it will work). I can't answer for anyone else's reasoning.

Here is a good review on the Xtar that may shed more light for those who understand the lingo... http://budgetlightforum.com/node/4148

One of the reasons I got the Xtar was for using w/ 18650s

so I guess my next question is, if I try using the Xtar, will it damage anything, or just take a while to get a complete charge? I just want to be sure I don't damage a $25 battery.
 

Dreamerr

Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
That I truly understand....I got chargers everywhere.
 
Dreamerr,
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green2brown

Well-Known Member
You are misreading me it seems. I'm obviously not being clear enough. You are right, if you let it run without pulling the load should not burn. The heater temperature is quite high, I'm sure over 1000F, but heat to the load is transferred by convection, not conduction. The exact temperature is not really important.

Worst case IMO is wasting power with excessive idles and overvaping the load. Even that poor technique gives good (by most standards) of complete vaping with no combustion. It was dark precisely because I was hitting it.

OF

I still need a little more clarification to grasp this: when you say "It was dark precisely because I was hitting it," do you mean that just because you took so many rips the ABV turned that dark or that the ABV turned dark because of HOW you were hitting it? It just doesn't make much sense to me that the ABV would turn darker the more you hit it at a certain point if the temperature is stable because after x amount of hits the ABV changes should plateau given that it has been fully vaped and no more chemical change can take place. I guess to give a comparison, with my Cloud for instance since it's a convection vape, I'll take 4 hits from a bowl at a given temp but after those 4 hits I've released all the active cannabinoids I can at that temp and even if I continue to draw at that same temp the ABV shows no change in color or form. So from my current understanding, the only way the Cera should be able to create such a dark ABV is if you're increasing the temperature manually using a very slow draw.
 
green2brown,

Haywood

Onward Thru the Fog
Do you think this battery would be okay for the Cera ?
The main rule here is that you can't believe the listed specs from no-name battery suppliers/resellers, and you can't assume the battery you get will be the one represented in the ebay ad.

If you do chose to believe you'll get what's been represented, then this battery still does NOT fulfill a primary specification that TE requires; the ability to provide a constant 2C discharge rate. The cell you link to is only rated at a 1C discharge rate.

And Jam: you don't need to buy another charger. Really.


Waiting for Cera has turned into a disease here. If TET doesn't release on time, I expect to see peasants with pitchforks and flaming torches...
 

Dreamerr

Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
Yea I bought batts for my LB on ebay and they didn't fit right. I couldn't get my LB to work. I had to buy new ones from LB people instead. I wasted money and time.

Edit: I learned from my father when you hire cheap labor you will have to get the job done again. He still does do that and I choose not to cause I want it done right the first time. I use this in my life. If I want a product I get it done right the first time so I don't have stress.
 

OF

Well-Known Member
It just doesn't make much sense to me that the ABV would turn darker the more you hit it at a certain point if the temperature is stable because after x amount of hits the ABV changes should plateau given that it has been fully vaped and no more chemical change can take place.

First off, again the temperature is not stable in the core but it is a LOT hotter. 1000F is more than vaping temperature, right? Pull enough 1000F air into the 400F load and the temperature in the load will go up.

This is not a regulated temperature core like on Volcano, Iolite, HA and the rest. There the core is at (or slightly above) vaping temperature. Big difference.

If you do chose to believe you'll get what's been represented, then this battery still does NOT fulfill a primary specification that TE requires; the ability to provide a constant 2C discharge rate. The cell you link to is only rated at a 1C discharge rate.

Waiting for Cera has turned into a disease here. If TET doesn't release on time, I expect to see peasants with pitchforks and flaming torches...

Great catch, Haywood! Now I remember why we keep you around here!

I wouldn't worry so much about the peasants and torches, Cera's tough, we can pick through the ashes for free stuff...... Probably should order a few batteries and chargers though?

OF
 

Dreamerr

Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
I can't wait to you all get this in your hands so I can really see how the LL works. I want one so bad but if the LL is not a good addition to my collection then there is no point. I wish they would show more ll vids. This thing shines with EO. So if you use EO it seems like this vape is an outstanding performer.

BTW I edited to add to my last post...
 

jambandphan03

in flavor country
You and me both Dreamerr, well I think I have a fair undrstanding of what you are looking for as far as draw is concerned on the LL. I will try to keep that in mind when I do get it. It helps that we both have used a bunch of the same devices. I'll be sure to report back ASAP on using the LL.
 

bopper

Well-Known Member
Noah's previous remarks in this thread with respect to chargers came in response to my question about the Xtar SP2. His recommendation of the Pila IBC charger may have been fine generally, but the 600ma maximum output current is clearly too low for 2900mAh batteries. The Xtar WP2 has switchable outputs of 500ma and 1A and is highly regarded:

Review of Xtar WP2

The SP2 has outputs of 500ma, 1A and 2A and mine seems fine so far. :D

It also charges 14500 batteries for our recently acquired and now indispensable Ultra/DART (thanks to all who recommended the combo).

Your charger has a USB output for hooking up, for instance, a charger for an Ego-C Twist.

Best,

bopper
 

jambandphan03

in flavor country
So I guess what I really want to know here, is what will happen, if I use the Xtar WP2 to charge the TET battery. Will it blow up, kill the battery, just charge slower etc... that's what I am trying to work out at this point.
 
jambandphan03,

OF

Well-Known Member
The Xtar WP2 has switchable outputs of 500ma and 1A and is highly regarded:

Review of Xtar WP2

I'm not so sure how to weight that 'highly regarded' part, but this bit:
"The charger does charge to a little below 4.2 volt, this might put slightly less energy in the battery, but will increase the lifetime of the battery a little" caught my eye.

Even without real numbers attached to 'slightly less' and so on, I'm guessing this will be seen as a poor trade off by some.

Just like batteries for MFLB, lots of good choices out there in amongst the poor ones, no doubt. For now, the only ones I have personal confidence enough to recommend are the ones from the factory.

"It's really very hard to shop for glasses for a friend" as the saying goes.

OF
 

bopper

Well-Known Member
So I guess what I really want to know here, is what will happen, if I use the Xtar WP2 to charge the TET battery. Will it blow up, kill the battery, just charge slower etc... that's what I am trying to work out at this point.

I'm not the expert, but IMO you should be fine.

We are going to use the related Xtar SP2 for Cera's batteries (and higher capacity successors) with good confidence. ;)

I'm not so sure how to weight that 'highly regarded' part, but this bit:
"The charger does charge to a little below 4.2 volt, this might put slightly less energy in the battery, but will increase the lifetime of the battery a little" caught my eye.

Even without real numbers attached to 'slightly less' and so on, I'm guessing this will be seen as a poor trade off by some.

Just like batteries for MFLB, lots of good choices out there in amongst the poor ones, no doubt. For now, the only ones I have personal confidence enough to recommend are the ones from the factory.

"It's really very hard to shop for glasses for a friend" as the saying goes.

OF

With all due respect, chargers are more generally applicable than one's eyeglass prescription. The SP2 seems to be fine:

Review of Xtar SP2

If we had followed Noah's recommendation, we'd be saddled with a charger quite inadequate by your own 3 hour charging criteria.

Best,

bopper
 
bopper,

Dreamerr

Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
Bopper you just confused me. Are you saying the one that Noah recommended will end up in a landfill? I was understanding all the way till your recent post.
 
Dreamerr,

bopper

Well-Known Member
Bopper you just confused me. Are you saying the one that Noah recommended will end up in a landfill? I was understanding all the way till your recent post.

The Pila charger isn't adequate for the Cera. It still charges many batteries and is hardly a candidate for a landfill. :D

Best,

bopper
 
bopper,
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Dreamerr

Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
Thanks for clearing that up I think. I don't understand batteries but now at least I understand what you were trying to say.
 
Dreamerr,

OF

Well-Known Member
With all due respect, chargers are more generally applicable than one's eyeglass prescription. The SP2 seems to be fine:

Review of Xtar SP2

If we had followed Noah's recommendation, we'd be saddled with a charger quite inadequate by your own 3 hour charging criteria.

No, you're not understanding it, it's not easy to make other's decisions for them is the point. I can look at hard data and offer suggestions, so far I'm short on hard data. A "little" more and a "little less" don't qualify to me, I understand how they do for you, go for it, it's your money and time.

FWIW I don't recall Noah recommending any specific model Pila charger, can you please show me that? TIA.

All I recall is him referring to them in a discussion about why they weren't using an American made unit.

I'm sure you know the three or more rate wasn't mine, you just misstated it. It's general advice I suggest is worth considering, amongst others.

Thanks again for the recommendation from Noah I missed.

OF
 
OF,

Haywood

Onward Thru the Fog
So I guess what I really want to know here, is what will happen, if I use the Xtar WP2 to charge the TET battery. Will it blow up, kill the battery, just charge slower etc... that's what I am trying to work out at this point.
Just slower. This is not rocket science, though from the discussions here it seems like a lot of people think it is.

The TET factory supplied battery provides about 3000mAh. If your charger can supply 1A of current, it will take approximately 3 hours to charge a depleted battery (while the charge process isn't 100% efficient, the battery also won't be totally dead, so for a "pretty much" depleted battery will take about 3 hours). If you charge it at a 500mA rate, it will take about 6 hours; 600mA rate, about 5 hours. If you charge it at a 2A rate, it will take about an hour and a half; 3A rate, about an hour.

There are lower and upper limits to the amount of current you can supply when charging a battery. If you supply too much current, you will reduce the number of cycles you get out of the battery; if you supply way to much current, and you're not using a protected battery, you'll blow up the battery. If you supply too little current (say .1C or less, or 300mA or less for the battery we're talking about), it will take forever to recharge the battery (10+ hours), and depending on the design of the charger, may fool it into not recognizing the end of charge cycle properly (though this does NOT generally happen with lithium based batteries, only NiMH batteries).

Keeping in mind that TET emphatically says that you MUST use a protected battery, it's not likely that you can overcharge their battery to the point of it venting (exploding). TET doesn't specify exactly which Japanese cell it uses, nor does TET exactly specify what the values are for the protection circuit it incorporates. The protection circuitry for a lithium battery is designed to prevent the charger from supplying too much voltage and current and from letting the battery discharge at too great a rate, or to too low a voltage. That's its purpose in life.

Also typically for lithium cells of the type that TET supplies, you can discharge at a rate up to 2 or 3 C (i.e., 6 to 9 amps for the cell in question). Charge rate maximums, however, vary greatly depending on the cell's exact chemistry and physical design, so it's not wise to speculate without knowing exactly which cell TET is going to settle on. Some lithium cells (not the one that comes with the Cera!) are designed to be charged at up to 15C. In no case do you have to worry about charging at .5C, which in this case is 1.5A. There is also no safety concern that I've read about charging at the 1C rate, which is 3A; charging at the 1C rate likely reduces the number of charge/discharge cycles slightly compared to charging at .5C rates. That said, the real answer for maximum charge rate should come from TET, not from me or anyone else here. The protection circuit they use will also impact the maximum charge rate, as that's one of the parameters it's "protecting".

I use one of those "complicated computer controlled charger/dischargers" that Noah mentioned, and so I can program what rates and voltages and methodology are used. Unless Noah tells me otherwise, I plan on charging my Cera battery at the .5C rate (1.5A) if I'm in no rush, and the 1C rate (3A) if I am. Before I charge it at the 1C rate, I plan on getting permission from Noah. :)

Speaking of which, why speculate...

Hey Noah: What is the recommended and maximum charge current for the new Cera cells?
 

bopper

Well-Known Member
...
FWIW I don't recall Noah recommending any specific model Pila charger, can you please show me that? TIA.

All I recall is him referring to them in a discussion about why they weren't using an American made unit.

I'm sure you know the three or more rate wasn't mine, you just misstated it. It's general advice I suggest is worth considering, amongst others.

Thanks again for the recommendation from Noah I missed.

OF

OK

In Noah's reply to me here is a link to a listing for the Pila IBC charger. Is there another Pila charger?

Best,

bopper
 
bopper,
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