The Tempest by Mad Heaters & Phatpiggie

[VapingYogi]

When you were heating the tempest was it orientated so that the bowl was above the balls like the typical way to use the wand? Wonder would it be different if you heated it balls above bowl?

I did a few different attempts to get a consistent result.

Both the Anvil and the Tempest where heated with the head down below the mouthpiece, with the device at a 45 degree angle, It was less heated when the balls were above the bowl - That is the herb was more protected from the heat in the Tempest when the cap was above the bowl when heated.

** I only had a sample size of like 3 attempts, it was consistent enough for me to suggest what I have...

 

[johnnyCanuck]

Ok - I officially talk to much

annnnd here I go again

I’ve been playing around with the Tempest for a while but I wanted to “science” a few things like, how much of a hybrid is the Tempest, we know it’s convection dominant but how much conduction and radiant heat’s is passed from the cap, which really does retain heat for a very long time, as someone said there is a chance for people to accidentally get burnt and some of my cooling magnets have had the glue that holds them in place melt because of the Tempest.

Regardless, to the science….

One old and simple way of seeing how much conduction and or radiant heat is part of a vaporizers system is to put the herbs into the oven, run a heat cycle, let it cool, and look at the changes to the herbs.

A convection only system, there should be no change to the herb colour after a heat cycle if no air is pulled through the system.

If there is conduction or radiant heat then there should be some change to the herbs, slight browning.

If it’s heavily conduction dominant then the herb should be changed, brown and spent even though no air was pulled through the system.

For comparison I used my Anvil and did the same thing. I heated it using the method I always do. For the Anvil I wait for the second cool down click to empty it, for the Tempest I just waited for both the uncalibrated visual indicator to go all the way down but also I waited until I could undo it with my fingers.

Here’s the results :

The Tempest has some, but very little, radiant heat or conduction.

The Anvil has some significant radiant heat and or conduction (using the 0.1 normal bowl)

** Pictures or it didn’t happen ** (as the kids say)

Now can you do the same thing with herb pics after a back to back bowls. Also back to back to back bowls?

 

[VapingYogi]

Now can you do the same thing with herb pics after a back to back bowls. Also back to back to back bowls?

more than happy to add that to my experiments, your interested in back to back Tempest bowls without letting the system cool down fully?

Another one of the things I’ve been asked is how do the Anvil, Tempest and a Dynavap tip/cap compare in size.

I threw together a side for the people who have asked me about it

https://imgur.com/a/3pQqfyU

 

[Timps27]

I’ve been really concentrating on dialing in my technique, and I’m becoming more in sync with the visual indicator. We all know it’s not a 1:1 indication of the heat in the battery, just an indication of the relative amount of radiant heat at the tip. The core is retaining much more heat than the visual indicator can feel. That understanding led me to this current method which is producing very flavorful, full extraction (on my unit):

Initial heat soak in wand @555’, indicator just below or right at second mark; 2 delicious pulls, relatively light vapor (relative to Tempest)
Torch slowly rotating until indicator is about halfway between 1 and 2; 2-3 dense tasty pulls
Torch slowly rotating stopping as soon as indicator passes 1; 2 dense cleanup pulls, less flavorful but honestly not bad

I also picked up some vape cotton after watching @phattpiggie with wax in a tempest head; I quite liked it. I have many concentrate first devices I would reach for around the house, but for a weekend camping trip a reload with a couple strains, your Tempest and a little tub of some wax would make a fantastic little kit!

 

[VapingYogi]

I’ve been really concentrating on dialing in my technique, and I’m becoming more in sync with the visual indicator. We all know it’s not a 1:1 indication of the heat in the battery, just an indication of the relative amount of radiant heat at the tip. The core is retaining much more heat than the visual indicator can feel. That understanding led me to this current method which is producing very flavorful, full extraction (on my unit):

Initial heat soak in wand @555’, indicator just below or right at second mark; 2 delicious pulls, relatively light vapor (relative to Tempest)
Torch slowly rotating until indicator is about halfway between 1 and 2; 2-3 dense tasty pulls
Torch slowly rotating stopping as soon as indicator passes 1; 2 dense cleanup pulls, less flavorful but honestly not bad

I also picked up some vape cotton after watching @phattpiggie with wax in a tempest head; I quite liked it. I have many concentrate first devices I would reach for around the house, but for a weekend camping trip a reload with a couple strains, your Tempest and a little tub of some wax would make a fantastic little kit!

I second that, the bottom second of my reload has vape cotton & hemp wick, a piece of parchment paper and some hash I prefer the hash itself in the Taroma but the flavor and extraction capability of the Tempest is great for twaxing or whatever they call it

love that you're able to dial in on the indicator like that.

 

[bhasma]

@RedZep
Vape theory is always interesting, but (as you say) unless it's directly related to the Tempest it doesn't really belong here. I haven't limited the cause of different signatures to potency and heating methods, and I agree that there are a host of other variables. But the discussion began around claims of convection vs conduction signatures in the Tempest and other vapes, so that has been a focus of my comments. And the description of signatures has been mainly around head vs body effects, so that basic dichotomy has also been considered (without denying the myriad of possible sensations). I think temperature and manner of heating are the main causes of this fundamental difference, but all of the variables you mention can indeed affect the experience in more subtle ways.

@Ann_evans96
I do NOT believe that there isn’t a difference in effect between convection and conduction extractions. I have described some of the variables that can cause a difference in vape signatures, but I haven't used the RTL experience as a general example, rather as the exception. Continued misrepresentation of my argument and intent shows a misunderstanding of what I have said. But I can't provide clarification here without further derailing the thread.

I've said enough already and anything more would be largely repetition, and if my comments are not understood as intended there is not much I can do. I really didn't expect to open such a can of worms by musing on the nature of signatures. Any questions I had about the Tempest itself have been answered, and what remains I can work out for myself when I have one in my hands.

@VapingYogi
Thanks for trying the simple experiment I suggested. But waiting for the cool-down click is perhaps too long for a typical use cycle, and waiting longer than normal will heat the herb to an unnatural extent. The Anvil can take three or four minutes to cool down, and I usually get a full extraction within 15 seconds, so the subsequent minutes of heating without airflow doesn't reflect a normal experience. I have checked simulated dark (not RTL) Anvil bowls at 10 seconds and (as previously noted) I found about 50:50 green and light roasted herb. And after 15 seconds without inhalation the bowl is more roasted (mixed light to medium) with very little green remaining. Without airflow the Anvil bowl is overheated by the surrounding oven (inhalation is supposed to begin as soon as the clicks are heard) and it could be that the Tempest's convective airflow actually heats the bowl, but if your Tempest load stayed barely roasted until cool-down that is quite impressive. And it shows that the Tempest will remain mainly convection throughout the more leisurely cycle it is famed for. I'm sure the Anvil and the Tempest will be quite complementary devices, and I look forward to having both in my armoury!

 

[VapingYogi]

@VapingYogi
Thanks for trying the simple experiment I suggested. But waiting for the cool-down click is perhaps too long for a typical use cycle, and waiting longer than normal will heat the herb to an unnatural extent. The Anvil can take three or four minutes to cool down, and I usually get a full extraction within 15 seconds, so the subsequent minutes of heating without airflow doesn't reflect a normal experience. I have checked simulated dark (not RTL) Anvil bowls at 10 seconds and (as previously noted) I found about 50:50 green and light roasted herb. And after 15 seconds without inhalation the bowl is more roasted (mixed light to medium) with very little green remaining. Without airflow the Anvil bowl is overheated by the surrounding oven (inhalation is supposed to begin as soon as the clicks are heard) and it could be that the Tempest's convective airflow actually heats the bowl, but if your Tempest load stayed barely roasted until cool-down that is quite impressive. And it shows that the Tempest will remain mainly convection throughout the more leisurely cycle it is famed for. I'm sure the Anvil and the Tempest will be quite complementary devices, and I look forward to having both in my armoury!

I will do a heat, wait 15-20 seconds with the herbs in the heated oven, then take out the herbs while the device is hot - just for science.

 

[Duba]

I will do a heat, wait 15-20 seconds with the herbs in the heated oven, then take out the herbs while the device is hot - just for science.

Elle "a bon dos la science" (French expression meaning that science is a good excuse for fun)
I can't wait to put on my white coat too, for science of course.
Thank you for your investment!

 

[VapingYogi]

@RedZep
Vape theory is always interesting, but (as you say) unless it's directly related to the Tempest it doesn't really belong here. I haven't limited the cause of different signatures to potency and heating methods, and I agree that there are a host of other variables. But the discussion began around claims of convection vs conduction signatures in the Tempest and other vapes, so that has been a focus of my comments. And the description of signatures has been mainly around head vs body effects, so that basic dichotomy has also been considered (without denying the myriad of possible sensations). I think temperature and manner of heating are the main causes of this fundamental difference, but all of the variables you mention can indeed affect the experience in more subtle ways.

@Ann_evans96
I do NOT believe that there isn’t a difference in effect between convection and conduction extractions. I have described some of the variables that can cause a difference in vape signatures, but I haven't used the RTL experience as a general example, rather as the exception. Continued misrepresentation of my argument and intent shows a misunderstanding of what I have said. But I can't provide clarification here without further derailing the thread.

I've said enough already and anything more would be largely repetition, and if my comments are not understood as intended there is not much I can do. I really didn't expect to open such a can of worms by musing on the nature of signatures. Any questions I had about the Tempest itself have been answered, and what remains I can work out for myself when I have one in my hands.

@VapingYogi
Thanks for trying the simple experiment I suggested. But waiting for the cool-down click is perhaps too long for a typical use cycle, and waiting longer than normal will heat the herb to an unnatural extent. The Anvil can take three or four minutes to cool down, and I usually get a full extraction within 15 seconds, so the subsequent minutes of heating without airflow doesn't reflect a normal experience. I have checked simulated dark (not RTL) Anvil bowls at 10 seconds and (as previously noted) I found about 50:50 green and light roasted herb. And after 15 seconds without inhalation the bowl is more roasted (mixed light to medium) with very little green remaining. Without airflow the Anvil bowl is overheated by the surrounding oven (inhalation is supposed to begin as soon as the clicks are heard) and it could be that the Tempest's convective airflow actually heats the bowl, but if your Tempest load stayed barely roasted until cool-down that is quite impressive. And it shows that the Tempest will remain mainly convection throughout the more leisurely cycle it is famed for. I'm sure the Anvil and the Tempest will be quite complementary devices, and I look forward to having both in my armoury!

I did each of the below a couple of times, there is variation in the results depending on flame length, depth of the IH adapter, length of time from last heat.

Sooo many variables

But I did the below about 3 times and it was very close so I’m happy enough with this.

https://imgur.com/a/twWYq4A

 

[HaggisHunter]

I know all the excitement these days is on the Tempest, but I have to say that I really love my Revolves. I doubt they will be fully out of the rotation even when I get the tempest. Maybe for a little while...

I reckon so, I think I'll mostly be using mine as my primary out and about device. Although, I plan on getting a second tempest so I think that'll secure that job too further down the line.
Maybe they'll be left for guests to use if they fancy a go with one.

 

[Jojofernz]

I did each of the below a couple of times, there is variation in the results depending on flame length, depth of the IH adapter, length of time from last heat.

Sooo many variables

But I did the below about 3 times and it was very close so I’m happy enough with this.

https://imgur.com/a/twWYq4A

Now this is the science we need around here

 

[RedZep]

I did each of the below a couple of times, there is variation in the results depending on flame length, depth of the IH adapter, length of time from last heat.

Sooo many variables

But I did the below about 3 times and it was very close so I’m happy enough with this.

https://imgur.com/a/twWYq4A

Wow kind of confirms what a lot of us have been saying. Herb seems really protected until inhalation. Explains why the flavour is so good.

 

[PeePhlegm]

Wow kind of confirms what a lot of us have been saying. Herb seems really protected until inhalation. Explains why the flavour is so good.

Need to do a flavour test now with balls above bowl vs. bowl above balls. See if the heat soak from bowl above balls enhances or diminishes flavour...

 

[VapingYogi]

@RedZep have you noticed, especially on back to back bowls, when you pull the Tempest out of the IH there tends to be a lag time, a few seconds to maybe 10s, where the cap and visual indicator is still getting hotter?

I tend to see the indicator go 1-2mm towards 240c before it starts to come back down towards 100c, like there is a slight lag between when I take it out of the IH and the transfer of heat to the indicator.

Mine (visual indicator) is not one of the final candidates so it might just be my indicator hence asking.

 

[RedZep]

@RedZep have you noticed, especially on back to back bowls, when you pull the Tempest out of the IH there tends to be a lag time, a few seconds to maybe 10s, where the cap and visual indicator is still getting hotter?

I tend to see the indicator go 1-2mm towards 240c before it starts to come back down towards 100c, like there is a slight lag between when I take it out of the IH and the transfer of heat to the indicator.

Mine (visual indicator) is not one of the final candidates so it might just be my indicator hence asking.

Hard to say. Mine maxes out quite early. It's working fine for torch reheats as luckily it maxes out right around where I like it.

I've only just started trying back to back IH bowls, and I haven't cut out the plastic in my wand insert yet. I've just been holding device in IH around 20 seconds then puff on it until it's the thickness I want. Works amazingly well to be honest. I would prefer just relying on VI in future when I have a tuned one, and can see it move in the wand.

Think I'll make the adaptor adjustment tonight and have a play.

 

[VapingYogi]

Hard to say. Mine maxes out quite early. It's working fine for torch reheats as luckily it maxes out right around where I like it.

I've only just started trying back to back IH bowls, and I haven't cut out the plastic in my wand insert yet. I've just been holding device in IH around 20 seconds then puff on it until it's the thickness I want. Works amazingly well to be honest. I would prefer just relying on VI in future when I have a tuned one, and can see it move in the wand.

Think I'll make the adaptor adjustment tonight and have a play.

mine needs a fix that I am not willing to do at the moment least I break something or loose the balls, i'm likely to do something stupid, so the gauge isn't reliable and everything I'm doing is timing which back to back is hard - I haven't just stuck it in and sucked until there was vapor thought

Oh facinating, while writting that I just did a "stick it in and suck until vapor is produced" and the temp gauge was below the bottom mark when vapor started coming out, it was closer to cold than it was to the first mark... my gauge is a little off

 

[RedZep]

mine needs a fix that I am not willing to do at the moment least I break something or loose the balls, i'm likely to do something stupid, so the gauge isn't reliable and everything I'm doing is timing which back to back is hard - I haven't just stuck it in and sucked until there was vapor thought

Oh facinating, while writting that I just did a "stick it in and suck until vapor is produced" and the temp gauge was below the bottom mark when vapor started coming out, it was closer to cold than it was to the first mark... my gauge is a little off

If you are drawing on it while it's heating you will draw temp away from it. So not sure what effect this would have on VI.

I imagine that technique should be used in lieu of VI use. I started doing it when I was having long hash sessions. VI use will always be better however as it's more efficient (not removing heat during heat up) and more elegant. But it's good to know there are fall back techniques.

 

[VapingYogi]

If you are drawing on it while it's heating you will draw temp away from it. So not sure what effect this would have on VI.

(1) No specifically, I put it into the IH, set it to 300c, double click, let it time out, as soon as it times out I pull out the Tempest and look at the VI (Visual Indicator) the VI continues to show increasing temperature for about 3-10 seconds after I pull it out of the IH.

However, I have a burr on my spring (or its getting stuck at this one point) just after the middle mark. In either direction it gets to that point and gets stuck for 3 seconds, before it bounces in the direction of the temperature change (2).

The way it continues to heat up (1) seems like the thermal matrix takes 3-10 second to equalize the temperature across the whole thermal matrix / that is all the 90 balls take a few seconds to get to the same temperature as some are hotter than others and the temperature has to equalize as as such I see the temperature go up just after taking it out.

I imagine that technique should be used in lieu of VI use. I started doing it when I was having long hash sessions. VI use will always be better however as it's more efficient (not removing heat during heat up) and more elegant. But it's good to know there are fall back techniques.

yeah because I don't have clicks or VI, I have got used to timing my heat up from different temps, I think I am going to try doing 4-5 back to back, using the heating in the IH and pull out every 10 to check to see if there is vapor. I just did that over 2 bowls, and apart from hot fingers ("Fingers are for burning” – Marco Pierre White) and I think I went to far as it was RDL, but I think I can do what @johnnyCanuck wanted which is photos of back to back bowls.

Tomorrow when I get up I am going to try for 5 without burning but while getting good solid extractions... i wonder how many times I burn it trying to RDL on reheats before I get it down.

Need to do a flavour test now with balls above bowl vs. bowl above balls. See if the heat soak from bowl above balls enhances or diminishes flavour...

Have you had the chance to try it?

I realized that when I am using a fresh bowl with a herb I really like the flavour of, I always seem to put the balls above the mouthpiece when I use it / take a draw. That's especially true when using hash (unless its sandwiched in something like cotton) or wax/twaxing. I thought I was maximizing flavour but I am more actually catering for something I keep doing that annoys me.

What I realised is that occasionally, when I don't tamp the herb firmly enough, sometimes pieces of herb can fall out of the bowl, onto the ball screen, which almost always burns which impacts the flavour and has confused me into thinking I have combusted when it was just a few crumbs.

I seem to mainly fill the bowl up to the line, the "half bowl" mark, I use a tamp (Old Head stiring stick or Rogue wax works tamp) to gently but firmly tamp the herb below the line, using the ever so slight friction that the edges of the line provide to help keep the herb in place.

This is what gives me the best experience at the moment. I am using both the extra space to give me a bit of extra tolerance when I heat it up as its guess work, and the friction of the half bowl line to reduce the movement of the herbs to avoid crumbs burning.

 

[TigoleBitties]

...
What I realised is that occasionally, when I don't tamp the herb firmly enough, sometimes pieces of herb can fall out of the bowl, onto the ball screen, which almost always burns which impacts the flavour and has confused me into thinking I have combusted when it was just a few crumbs.

I seem to mainly fill the bowl up to the line, the "half bowl" mark, I use a tamp (Old Head stiring stick or Rogue wax works tamp) to gently but firmly tamp the herb below the line, using the ever so slight friction that the edges of the line provide to help keep the herb in place.

This is what gives me the best experience at the moment. I am using both the extra space to give me a bit of extra tolerance when I heat it up as its guess work, and the friction of the half bowl line to reduce the movement of the herbs to avoid crumbs burning.

Yes. I discovered the impact of loose material falling onto the hot screen holding the balls in place when I first got the Stunner. Couldn't figure out why I would sometimes taste slight charring, which would then mysteriously go away.

To mitigate this I found the things to do were:

1) Always give the flower a slight tamp to keep it in place. Don't overfill or the excess may make contact with the ball screen.
2) One or two (tasty!) draws while waiting for a heating cycle to end will shrivel the flower and make it sticky, preventing movement. This is key.
3) Always angle the Tempest such that the tip is above the bowl (don't point the tip towards the ground) before step 2 is completed. Gravity is your friend.

 

[VapingYogi]

I discovered the impact of loose material falling onto the hot screen holding the balls in place when I first got the Stunner.

If I had infinite money I would get a Stunner, however, I don't and I can't seem to bring myself to get one, for many reasons, but I would love to compare it to the Tempest... I do look forward to someone who has one (or a TA) pulling them out and doing a video comparison *hint hint everyone*!

1) Always give the flower a slight tamp to keep the flower in place. Don't overfill or the excess may make contact with the ball screen.
2) One or two (tasty!) draws while waiting for a heating cycle to end will shrivel the flower and make it sticky, preventing movement. This is key.
3) Always angle the Tempest such that the tip is above the bowl (don't point the tip towards the ground) before step 2 is completed. Gravity is your friend

Good points. I pretty much always have a slight "balls up" approach when ever I use my Tempest, however, for example when I am holding it in my mouth only, and the "balls drop" (so many innuendos), there is a chance, if not packed right or "sticky" that herbs will fall on the balls.

This all got me thinking, one of the things that I have always disliked about the Anvil is the bowl. Mainly, the orientation of the bowl when using the WPA kit or putting the Anvil vertical into a waterpipe where the bowl is upside down. Regardless of tamping, herbs often fall out of the bowl onto and into the condenser (and can with repeated back to back use start to burn in the condenser). I considered adding texture to the inside of one of my bowls to increase the friction and hold the herb in place better but I didn't have the money to buy a replacement if I fucked it up.

The Tempest when vertical - or when disconnected from the body and connected to a WPA is more than likely going to have the cap above the bow, the bowl is at the bottom and the cap/balls are above - my preferred orientation for this specific type of use. However, when used natively when the "balls drop" below the herbs, it can cause some level of momentum and shake the herbs loose or as they heat up and become less sticky they fall out of the bowl (or you just sucked at tamping) and they fall directly onto the very hot ball screen and often / can instantly catch alight.

I have thought about putting a spare mesh screen (was thinking 90 micron) between the ball screen and the bowl with a couple of mm gap, to see if I can stop those loose herbs from falling down - but again - I figure I'll knock the balls out if I try . However, I almost wish there was a "buffer" zone, something to catch falling herbs before they touch the ball screen.

** to clarify, what annoys me about the Anvil - about the bowl orientation - is actually a positive when using the Anvil native, holding the mouthpiece high above the oven, gravity is on you side, holding the herbs in the bowl or making wax melt into the flowers rather than making a mess. When using the Anvil WPA I ended up with a work around that I used which was a little mesh cap for the bowls that I would also use to make them into dosing caps or alternatively I had a little stainless steel screen which I would sit on the condenser before screwing in the bowl that would act like a dry herb catcher which I could just tip out that stopped the herbs dropping into the condenser. As I use the Tempest "balls up" to avoid herbs dropping on the screen its not really an issue its just, something to consider.

#nosleepforthewicked hello 3:30am, I took a while writting those posts

 

[simba]

If I had infinite money I would get a Stunner, however, I don't and I can't seem to bring myself to get one, for many reasons, but I would love to compare it to the Tempest... I do look forward to someone who has one (or a TA) pulling them out and doing a video comparison *hint hint everyone*!

I'll be happy to do a TA & Tempest side-by-side, although I'm waiting for the final release.

 

[Shorner]

Just had my tracking info for my tempest and reload, it should be here tomorrow, im like a kid on Christmas eve,can't wait

 

[Jojofernz]

Just had my tracking info for my tempest and reload, it should be here tomorrow, im like a kid on Christmas eve,can't wait

Just got my tracking, but I’m in US and I probably got a week or two to wait haha but excited!!!

 

[Shorner]

Just got my tracking, but I’m in US and I probably got a week or two to wait haha but excited!!!

Glad i live in the UK for once

 

[RedZep]

Just had my tracking info for my tempest and reload, it should be here tomorrow, im like a kid on Christmas eve,can't wait

Congrats mate. I know you've been posting in here from inception of the thread. Been a long wait. I hope you have loads of fun with it