The Tempest by Mad Heaters & Phatpiggie
- Thread starter oddjobold
- Start date
kegstandman420
Well-Known Member
I
www.reddit.com
Im not sure how to post pictures, but I have a post on reddit with my purple tempest. It's under the same username as my name on here, kegstanman420.
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
General Disaster
A Country Member
Just so you know (and I'm terrible at doing it!) but you should join all your posts together if no-one else has messaged in between.
The mods like to keep things tidy, part of the rules here - just so you're aware!
The mods like to keep things tidy, part of the rules here - just so you're aware!
You have to post them on a suitable 3rd party site, I've used https://imgbb.com/ recently which doesn't even need a login just to post an image and get a url back to paste into your message here.
kegstandman420
Well-Known Member
Sorry about that, I'm on mobile. I'll try and delete what's not needed. And thanks for the tips.Just so you know (and I'm terrible at doing it!) but you should join all your posts together if no-one else has messaged in between.
The mods like to keep things tidy, part of the rules here - just so you're aware!
You have to post them on a suitable 3rd party site, I've used https://imgbb.com/ recently which doesn't even need a login just to post an image and get a url back to paste into your message here.
General Disaster
A Country Member
Hey! Don't apologise to me! I'm new here too, and have driven some of the mods crazy doing it - I just completely don't realise until after,. then spend a desperate 5 mins tidying up in the hope of beating them to it!
(the mods are very patient, wasn't dissing them at all!)
And I don't even have the excuse of using a mobile!
[Edit]
Oh, there's an edit button that stays for 6 hours I think, so you can copy paste into one message. Then I just delete the additional messages contents leaving just a "please delete", because we can't actually delete the post, but you can then report it, and just ask them nicely to remove it.
And welcome to the thread!
Oh, and by the way, I believe that the colouring is done through anodisation of the titanium, and so is a part of the metal itself, and I believe (not read up on this so pinch a salt) it's a surface effect only, so if you wore away the surface it may appear different underneath (silver-ish I'd guess).
Something to do with the quantum interactions of photons on the surface of a metal, and the change in the molecular structure from the temperature the metal is heated to. Obviously far too simple for my great brain to bother itself with, y'know, otherwise I'd explain in full.
But seriously, it's not a dye or application of some layer of something over the titanium, it's integral to the metal, and titanium is rather hard to be worn away in normal use. I think they bake the metal to a very precise temperature to control the colour - though if anyone knows better I'd love to be corrected?
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HaggisHunter
Well-Known Member
Not an expert but have done a bit of it in the workshop.
Heat treating range of colours is limited and harder to control.
There are only 3 colours and plain metal, these colours/bare metal repeat in the same order as the heat increases, only in a lighter shade each time. Other than the first cycle of colours, it's not worth it as they get less and less vibrant.
These are more likely done in anodising baths with a mains power source/VVPS, easier to achieve consistent colours and there's wider spectrum of colours available that way.
It's a build up of layers of oxidisation that occurs when a current is passed through it.
Once it's in the tank, you start off by running a low voltage through it, as the voltage increases, the colour changes as the oxidisation starts to build.
Range starts with bronze to purple, blue, silver, gold, pink, lighter blue then lighter purple then green.
Voltage range is from about 5v for bronze, up to around 90-100v for green depending on equipment.
Red and orange aren't available at all.
As far as I'm aware or understand, the titanium doesn't change colour, but the layers of oxidisation at a given voltage cause the metal atoms to refract light off it differently, giving the impression that it's changed colour, when in actual fact it hasn't.
Other thing that drastically affects what colour you have/depth of colour is the finish on the metal itself, polished, stone washed, brushed, sandblasted etc. will all have a different look at the exact same voltage.
And also grade of titanium 1,2,3,4 and 5 and so on.
The grade 5 stuff mad heaters use (correct me if wrong) colours really well I've found, from the gen 1 revolve to the tempest, the colours really pop with little effort.
I've had the same with other grade 5 titanium I've anodised so maybe it's a characteristic of grade 5.
The grade 1 or 2 titanium I've anodised have required more prep on the metal before I've been happy with colour.
Still learning about this myself. It's fun though.
Sorry, didn't meant to go on this much...
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General Disaster
A Country Member
Oh, I thought it was much more a continuous range of colours through the spectrum according to temperature reached. I partly also based this on what I see heating up the Ti head of the TA, and I see what looks like a spectrum of colour with a pale silver/light-blue colour at the top (hottest) end, then about half way down it changes to a spread of colour from blue going to purple/brown to a yellowish tint then the original colour towards where it meets the widened part where the bowl starts (TA3).
The main range of colour spread only covers about 5mm or so distance about half way along, very cramped together, so only a small temp difference to produce a change in colour, and I suspect a very steady state oven would be needed to reliably give a consistent colouration. But I'm not an expert or anything, in fact I'm much more theoretical than practical. So I have to apply what I know scientifically, to the practical process that could be used. Not read up on this so I could be (almost certainly am) partially or completely wrong.
My only other advantage is my eye sight is exceptionally acute, I can see the finest detail without aids, and only now past 60 I'm seeing a very small degradation where I can't see the smallest print in focus if nearer than about 8/10 inches away. So I can sometimes see tiny details others miss, but this isn't the whole story so no guarantee I'm always right - the above is just "Evidence of the ol' glassies", my droog! (and a little logical conclusion making).
I suspect there's more to it that just heat treatment though from what you say, a very quick google on anodising baths shows a clear chemical part, acidity and doping with things like chromium salts, so I guess it is still a surface effect built in to the actual structure of the metal's molecules, but includes doping (like with chromium in AlO crystals to make rubies. Interesting stuff, but I've never had the chance to play around with it. Thanks for the comments! Sorry if I've dragged the thread a little off-topic.
I think you've missed something here (physics wise), the process of "changing colour" is the effects of photons interacting with a metallic surface - they are absorbed by the electrons 'swimming' around the nuclei, which behave differently on a surface than within the metal. It's the subtle effects of this (doping the metal, heat treating, chemical treatment, etc) that makes all the different effects, such as providing a perfect mirror, or only reflecting a short range of wavelengths (what our brains interpret as 'colour' but isn't a real thing, more of a consistent hallucination that allows our brains to differentiate between the most important (for survival) wavelengths of light).
This is hideously complicated stuff. I tried learning more about when I started to learn about how many light effects we take for granted actually occur (partial reflection for example, is very interesting on a quantum level - relates to wave particle duality and that sort of crazy shit). What I used to think of as a 'mirror' was just a surface that light bounces off at an opposing angle of incidence without losing much visible wavelengths, so looking like the original light (image). This is very much not the case though! The light is absorbed by electrons, and then those electrons have to shed that extra energy to return to a stable configuration, and that extra energy is spat out in the form of a new photon! Which can have different properties like wavelength (colour).
I'd be more sorry for triggering my own verbiage! My literary diarrhoea! It just flows and flows and flows!
But better out than in, as they say after a particularly stinky fart!
My main entertainment actually! I don't watch TV or anything like that. Mostly spend my evenings either texting like this, but more learning about things of personal interest, especially essays and lectures from engineers and 'real' scientists and the like.
e.g. Check out the Royal Institution vids if you want accessible real science without needing a degree to appreciate it, many excellent topics of interest, cutting edge work, also at many levels (the xmas lectures are world-renown for kids and non-academics). But also I go down rabbit holes following up on things of current interest, reading and fact checking the news, etc etc. and spent many years learning to weed out the facts from the fictions. So what I know about, in my areas of interest and expertise, I'm rarely badly mistaken having put in years of self learning (and focussing on what I'm best at), but when I haven't I'm ready to admit I'm making educated guesses and be corrected. To learn is to live!
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HaggisHunter
Well-Known Member
Yeah as I say, no expertOh, I thought it was much more a continuous range of colours through the spectrum according to temperature reached. I partly also based this on what I see heating up the Ti head of the TA, and I see what looks like a spectrum of colour with a pale silver/light-blue colour at the top (hottest) end, then about half way down it changes to a spread of colour from blue going to purple/brown to a yellowish tint then the original colour towards where it meets the widened part where the bowl starts (TA3).
The main range of colour spread only covers about 5mm or so distance about half way along, very cramped together, so only a small temp difference to produce a change in colour, and I suspect a very steady state oven would be needed to reliably give a consistent colouration. But I'm not an expert or anything, in fact I'm much more theoretical than practical. So I have to apply what I know scientifically, to the practical process that could be used. Not read up on this so I could be (almost certainly am) partially or completely wrong.
My only other advantage is my eye sight is exceptionally acute, I can see the finest detail without aids, and only now past 60 I'm seeing a very small degradation where I can't see the smallest print in focus if nearer than about 8/10 inches away. So I can sometimes see tiny details others miss, but this isn't the whole story so no guarantee I'm always right - the above is just "Evidence of the ol' glassies", my droog! (and a little logical conclusion making).
I suspect there's more to it that just heat treatment though from what you say, a very quick google on anodising baths shows a clear chemical part, acidity and doping with things like chromium salts, so I guess it is still a surface effect built in to the actual structure of the metal's molecules, but includes doping (like with chromium in AlO crystals to make rubies. Interesting stuff, but I've never had the chance to play around with it. Thanks for the comments! Sorry if I've dragged the thread a little off-topic.
I think you've missed something here (physics wise), the process of "changing colour" is the effects of photons interacting with a metallic surface - they are absorbed by the electrons 'swimming' around the nuclei, which behave differently on a surface than within the metal. It's the subtle effects of this (doping the metal, heat treating, chemical treatment, etc) that makes all the different effects, such as providing a perfect mirror, or only reflecting a short range of wavelengths (what our brains interpret as 'colour' but isn't a real thing, more of a consistent hallucination that allows our brains to differentiate between the most important (for survival) wavelengths of light).
This is hideously complicated stuff. I tried learning more about when I started to learn about how many light effects we take for granted actually occur (partial reflection for example, is very interesting on a quantum level - relates to wave particle duality and that sort of crazy shit). What I used to think of as a 'mirror' was just a surface that light bounces off at an opposing angle of incidence without losing much visible wavelengths, so looking like the original light (image). This is very much not the case though! The light is absorbed by electrons, and then those electrons have to shed that extra energy to return to a stable configuration, and that extra energy is spat out in the form of a new photon! Which can have different properties like wavelength (colour).
I'd be more sorry for triggering my own verbiage! My literary diarrhoea! It just flows and flows and flows!
But better out than in, as they say after a particularly stinky fart!
My main entertain actually! I don't watch TV or anything like that. Mostly spend my evenings either texting like this, but more learning about things of personal interest, especially essays and lectures from engineers and 'real' scientists and the like.
e.g. Check out the Royal Institution vids if you want accessible real science without needing a degree to appreciate it, many excellent topics of interest, cutting edge work, also at many levels (the xmas lectures are world-renown for kids and non-academics). But also I go down rabbit holes following up on things of current interest, reading and fact checking the news, etc etc. and spent many years learning to weed out the facts from the fictions. So what I know about, in my areas of interest and expertise, I'm rarely badly mistaken having put in years of self learning (and focussing on what I'm best at), but when I haven't I'm ready to admit I'm making educated guesses and be corrected. To learn is to live!
Most of my knowledge is from my practical attempts and advice I've sought from those specifically in that field.
There will be a more reliable way of heat treating with better equipment, but it's still not a guarantee from what I've been told.
I have missed some things out but it was getting off topic and my response was already massive
I guess in summary anodising can be as easy or as complicated as you want to make it.
When anodising titanium it's as easy as daisy chaining 9v batteries to reach the required voltage for the colour you want, a suitable anode and diode and an anodising bath, which could be Coca-Cola...
But if better results are desired, then prep work for the metal needs to be researched to get the desired finish.
I thought it was simple, then spent months messing with it.
General Disaster
A Country Member
I was most interested to hear as you filled in some definite gaps in my knowledge. I'm amateur too, couldn't do normal learning at school or do degree's etc, I think 'educationally subnormal' and 'special needs' were the terms bandied around at the time.
(Sadly, being 'special needs', didn't mean being given anything 'special' for my 'needs' at school! I have to laugh at the sheer irony of it, now it's so long ago it's ancient history!
).As an aside, I also think it's very dependent on the metal too, so aluminium anodising uses a different formula. But with hindsight, what you say about the use of current, acidity (shows what coke does to your guts!) and metal salts instead of temperature to apply a known repeatable colouration on the surface sounds much the better (easier? cheaper? more accessible for home use?) than trying to use an oven, even if it's possible to do it that way in a satisfactory manner).
I really got to stop this topic though (here at least), sorry, but I'm drifting too far off the thread for others, and I tend to hog things with my very long posts!
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HaggisHunter
Well-Known Member
Yeah aluminium needs dyes and all that sort of thing. Not something I want to get involved in.I was most interested to hear as you filled in some definite gaps in my knowledge. I'm amateur too, couldn't do normal learning at school or do degree's etc, I think 'educationally subnormal' and 'special needs' were the terms bandied around at the time.
(Sadly, being 'special needs', didn't mean being given anything 'special' for my 'needs' at school! I have to laugh at the sheer irony of it, now it's so long ago it's ancient history!
As an aside, I also think it's very dependent on the metal too, so aluminium anodising uses a different formula. But with hindsight, what you say about the use of current, acidity (shows what coke does to your guts!) and metal salts instead of temperature to apply a known repeatable colouration on the surface sounds much the better (easier? cheaper? more accessible for home use?) than trying to use an oven, even if it's possible to do it that way in a satisfactory manner).
I have a recipe for a home made etchant for anodising titanium, although I haven't used it yet.
The best ones (also least toxic) aren't available in the UK as us peasants can't be trusted to turn Titanium pink without risk to national security.
But I can readily buy all sorts of acids and the like to get the job done.... Without issue
Whether it's heat treated or anodised, the metal prep before colouring is basically what will determine the quality of results.
When using an etchant you also need to watch what your doing as the etch strips titanium away till it's an even layer, so if you polish it first, you need to watch how you leave in the etch for, as the etch will remove the surface you've just polished up.
But etching is how to get the best results.
They both offer stunning results if prepped.
I might leave this now, before we take over the thread
General Disaster
A Country Member
Thanks @HaggisHunter, really good info! And yeah, the rules on what you can procure and what you can't are sometimes coming out of the minds of children it seems! (uk at least).Yeah aluminium needs dyes and all that sort of thing. Not something I want to get involved in.
I have a recipe for a home made etchant for anodising titanium, although I haven't used it yet.
The best ones (also least toxic) aren't available in the UK as us peasants can't be trusted to turn Titanium pink without risk to national security.
But I can readily buy all sorts of acids and the like to get the job done.... Without issue
Whether it's heat treated or anodised, the metal prep before colouring is basically what will determine the quality of results.
When using an etchant you also need to watch what your doing as the etch strips titanium away till it's an even layer, so if you polish it first, you need to watch how you leave in the etch for, as the etch will remove the surface you've just polished up.
But etching is how to get the best results.
They both offer stunning results if prepped.
I might leave this now, before we take over the thread
HaggisHunter
Well-Known Member
If it's something your planning on giving a go fire me a message.
Always happy to help, you seem pretty smart and clued but if there's anything I can help with I will
Electrofever
Well-Known Member
It’s really interesting reading all this info on anodizing 
But I was wondering if the colors of the tempest were achieved with anodizing ? My Revolve v1, black, was DLC coating, IIRC, but I always wondered how the rainbow colors of my v2 were obtained. It doesn’t seem to be anodizing, but it could be. So I do wonder how all the colors of the tempest are made, for exemple the black. Simrell seems to have found a way to do black anodizing, so all that makes me really curious about colors 
But I was wondering if the colors of the tempest were achieved with anodizing ? My Revolve v1, black, was DLC coating, IIRC, but I always wondered how the rainbow colors of my v2 were obtained. It doesn’t seem to be anodizing, but it could be. So I do wonder how all the colors of the tempest are made, for exemple the black. Simrell seems to have found a way to do black anodizing, so all that makes me really curious about colors 
Black is DLC, blue and rainbow is PVD, green and purple is anodised.
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Electrofever
Well-Known Member
All is clear now, thank you 
TheScamericann
Member
I bought a tempest kit 2 weeks ago and ive just disassembled the cap to give the balls a thorough clean and there's only 40 balls in it instead of the 80 stated on the tempest web page. Anyone else had this issue? It doesnt look like i could fit more balls than the 40 thats already in there though so kinda confused why it says 80 on the site.
80 was for the 2.5mm maybe you have the 3.0mm?
kokolokokolokon
Well-Known Member
Maybe you have 3mm balls. The 80 balls are ould be using the 2,5mm. And, if you use 2mm balls, you would need more than 100
Shorner
Well-Known Member
They have change the balls to 3mm now that's why the lower number.
TedJones
Well-Known Member
Speaking of ..
How are these going BR? And do you have the 3’s in zirc to compare?With 3mm rubies...
General Disaster
A Country Member
Wow! That's a lot of fancy technology there! I've just burnt out google looking at what DLC and PVD are (once I realised PVD wasn't related to retinal detachment!
). Thanks for the info!
VapingYogi
Pranayama; of a sort.
I missed that, when did that change happen?
I might have to see what the difference is...
I have been thinking of trying "Gem Cut" but I think they will probably burn the herb
I think I like boro over zrc/rubies most of the time, I find myself constantly switching back to boro as its less sensitive, in that boro takes the heat you give it, stabilizes quickly and is available straight away where as the the zrc and rubies are slower to stabilize and feel like they take more calories to get them to them to produce the same vapor. (I've only been playing with 2mm or 2.5mm - I haven't tried 3mm yet)
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VapingYogi
Pranayama; of a sort.
@CBD this was from a old post but it's still valid - the best idea is to sign up for the newsletter as @Brenyo mentions below
The newsletter (for those that don't know) is at the bottom of the Madheaters.co.uk website
General Disaster
A Country Member
Thanks, I appreciate the offer (you may regret saying that one day!If it's something your planning on giving a go fire me a message.
Always happy to help, you seem pretty smart and clued but if there's anything I can help with I will
), though I am very much more stuck in my mind these days, and have few resources to play with real ideas and make things, so I tend to live internally much more, and construct things in my mind instead. Also, I get bored very rapidly, the moment (I think) I've solved an interesting problem, I lose all interest and move on - always had problems finishing things!When I had access to workshops and tools and chemicals, actually making things was more fun, but I was young and motivated in those days!
"You 'ad motivation? You wor lucky! We 'ad ta make do with ol' paper bag in middle of ... (blah blah blah...!)"
(
)Also, I may seem clued in, but sometimes I miss something major simply because actually trying things shows all the real world engineering problems that are on top of original design etc. So despite probably coming across as an arrogant know-it-all, I understand experience can trump intellect!