Gear The Source by Extract Craft - a closed loop system for alcohol extractions

[IchiBanCrafter]

Cheers for the info. I'd be interested to find out about the pressure question and whether a solution is in the pipeline to measure pressure.

Does this unit use inductive heating per chance? Is it possible to simply switch to a more appropriately shaped glass dish in the source instead of the SS bowl for the scraping?

Also everything behaves differently in a vacuum, remember that when the pressure changes you cannot be sure anymore that you have a chamber whose conditions are safe to put anything in. I don't trust anything that isn't borosilicate and my meds inside a vac chamber. An ounce of prevention is worth quarter of an ounce of unspoiled meds for me!

I have seen silicone delaminate and stick to full melt (solventless resin), let alone solvent based concentrates with residuals (with which I've seen all kinds of weird behaviour with over time when stored in silicone containers, even when fully purged - I fully abandoned silicone container for concentrate storage or processing over a year ago).

When you have a bunch of ethanol in the mix as well as probably more terps than traditional heat purging would leave, you have an atomsphere full of hydrocarbon vapors around your silicone (a polymer rated only to be used in specific scenarios - food grade does not imply safety for use in a vacuum, nor does food grade have any bearing at all on the superheating and inhalation of a substance where ethanol is concerned).

Let me explain what I mean when I mention hydrocarbons since it is true that ethanol has a hydroxyl group and is hence not a hydrocarbon. When ethanol is superheated, it is known to release ethylene (a hydrocarbon and asphyxiant) and h2o. I have posted scholarly articles to this effect on FC before.

Of course, ethanol itself is a carcinogen and a solvent and will dehydrate your airways in enough concentration whether from too much residual in one dab, or cumulative exposure from small amounts of residual in many dabs. That for me, is beyond the risks that I am prepared to take. Of course, you may decide for yourself what you like to do bro.

With inhaling alcohol - nobody yet completely understands the long term and/or cumulative effects of inhaling alcohol. I have not been able to find scholarly studies concerning the direct inhalation of superheated alcohol (alcohol vaporists tend to use pressure/pumps to vaporize and inhale their alcohol - not heat and oxygen which changes every chemical it comes into contact with in ways that are both to some extent known and unknown!). Dabbing a residual solvent filled oil long term could lead to your inhaling ethanol (a known carcinogen!!!!!), ethylene (an asphyxiant) and more. As a medical user, this is no bueno. As a vaporist who quit smoking for health reasons - this is also self-defeating. Again, it is for you to decide if you mind inhaling alcohol and byproducts of it's oxidation/decomposition of course. As for me, I'll only use solvents for dabmaking when I can be sure that the solvent is gone.

Still, I am sure that we could make this setup work in a way that will allow full purge and collection. It will be a matter of the right tool, or replacing the stock boiling vessel/dish. What metal is that dish made of btw?



I agree with you here my friend, this would be fantastic for tinctures and edibles! I do think that we could yet figure out a way to make this workable as a standalone shatter solution with some thought and some minor modifications! The crucial starting point is determining if this is inductive or conductive heat we are dealing with. The second would be to see what the metal vessel that comes with the unit is made out of.

For example, a titanium shovel tool with a long handle could be great for scraping this dish! You would just want to be sure that the metal dish was much harder than ti though, and that you were careful not to scrape metal shavings off as you collect. Another possibility as I mention above would be to replace the vessel with something else.

I'm fascinated to see what can be done here! If we can overcome this issue and get pressure measurement - sign me up!

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

Cheers for the info. I'd be interested to find out about the pressure question and whether a solution is in the pipeline to measure pressure.

Does this unit use inductive heating per chance? Is it possible to simply switch to a more appropriately shaped glass dish in the source instead of the SS bowl for the scraping?

Also everything behaves differently in a vacuum, remember that when the pressure changes you cannot be sure anymore that you have a chamber whose conditions are safe to put anything in. I don't trust anything that isn't borosilicate and my meds inside a vac chamber. An ounce of prevention is worth quarter of an ounce of unspoiled meds for me!

I have seen silicone delaminate and stick to full melt (solventless resin), let alone solvent based concentrates with residuals (with which I've seen all kinds of weird behaviour with over time when stored in silicone containers, even when fully purged - I fully abandoned silicone container for concentrate storage or processing over a year ago).

When you have a bunch of ethanol in the mix as well as probably more terps than traditional heat purging would leave, you have an atomsphere full of hydrocarbon vapors around your silicone (a polymer rated only to be used in specific scenarios - food grade does not imply safety for use in a vacuum, nor does food grade have any bearing at all on the superheating and inhalation of a substance where ethanol is concerned).

Let me explain what I mean when I mention hydrocarbons since it is true that ethanol has a hydroxyl group and is hence not a hydrocarbon. When ethanol is superheated, it is known to release ethylene (a hydrocarbon and asphyxiant) and h2o. I have posted scholarly articles to this effect on FC before.

Of course, ethanol itself is a carcinogen and a solvent and will dehydrate your airways in enough concentration whether from too much residual in one dab, or cumulative exposure from small amounts of residual in many dabs. That for me, is beyond the risks that I am prepared to take. Of course, you may decide for yourself what you like to do bro.

With inhaling alcohol - nobody yet completely understands the long term and/or cumulative effects of inhaling alcohol. I have not been able to find scholarly studies concerning the direct inhalation of superheated alcohol (alcohol vaporists tend to use pressure/pumps to vaporize and inhale their alcohol - not heat and oxygen which changes every chemical it comes into contact with in ways that are both to some extent known and unknown!). Dabbing a residual solvent filled oil long term could lead to your inhaling ethanol (a known carcinogen!!!!!), ethylene (an asphyxiant) and more. As a medical user, this is no bueno. As a vaporist who quit smoking for health reasons - this is also self-defeating. Again, it is for you to decide if you mind inhaling alcohol and byproducts of it's oxidation/decomposition of course. As for me, I'll only use solvents for dabmaking when I can be sure that the solvent is gone.

Still, I am sure that we could make this setup work in a way that will allow full purge and collection. It will be a matter of the right tool, or replacing the stock boiling vessel/dish. What metal is that dish made of btw?



I agree with you here my friend, this would be fantastic for tinctures and edibles! I do think that we could yet figure out a way to make this workable as a standalone shatter solution with some thought and some minor modifications! The crucial starting point is determining if this is inductive or conductive heat we are dealing with. The second would be to see what the metal vessel that comes with the unit is made out of.

For example, a titanium shovel tool with a long handle could be great for scraping this dish! You would just want to be sure that the metal dish was much harder than ti though, and that you were careful not to scrape metal shavings off as you collect. Another possibility as I mention above would be to replace the vessel with something else.

I'm fascinated to see what can be done here! If we can overcome this issue and get pressure measurement - sign me up!

I get what you are saying and we agree on some things and differ on interpretation on others (which is fine). I am not writing to fight and bore people but wanted to share my thoughts here.

First, I inquired about the vacuum level, they reported the vacuum runs between 15-18 kPa. This is consistent with keeping the ethanol boiling point around 100-105f. My machines are boiling/evaporating between 102-104f as measured by a thermometer left inside the cup during the process.

Your point about some silicone being unsuitable and of inferior quality is dependent on what product you are using. Silicones encompass a wide range of chemistries from China cheap to very well designed. Some are not as compatible with solvents like acetones or methyl ethyl ketones. Properly cured silicones are highly resistant to alcohols and plant phenolics, paraffins, and aromatic hydrocarbons like turpenes. Acetoxy cure silicones in particular are of low toxicity and associated with food-grade formulations. Coincidentally, acetoxy cure silicones are well-represented on the NASA low outgassing list. Their safety in a vacuum is not in question, and any curing outgassing is in the form of acetic acid, as found in vinegar, house italian salad dressing, and snack food flavorings. A partial vacuum in contact with ethanol, turpene, phenolic, and paraffinic vapors does not present a novel environment where reactions can occur with greater kinetics than at a similar temperature at sea level pressure. In fact, the reaction kinetics point in the other direction where pressure is reduced when comparing reactions like this at similar temperatures.

I think your concern about ethanol releasing ethylene may not be entirely spelled out. First, if there were any ethanol remaining in a well purged final product it would be nearly undetectable even on a per millions scale. More importantly, for the ethanol to transform to ethylene it would need to be heated to a dab nail temperature, under pressure of nearly 30-40 times atmospheric pressure in the presence of a non-existent catalyst. The chances of this are obviously negligible. Lastly, Ethylene gas is widely used to ripen vegetables and is produced from the pyrolysis of pretty much anything- barbeques, roasting a turkey in the oven, making toast, etc.

While I mentioned pyrolysis, and you mentioned the want of ‘unspoiled meds’, please keep in mind pyrolysis (dabbing) of any decomposition of the phenols, turpenes, and paraffins in the pyrolysis of plant extract (cannabis) yields significantly greater chemical exposure compared to alcohol vapor. Most gasses are asphyxiants, including the nitrogen that comprises, on average, about 78% of the air we breathe. The dabber is still left with the more troubling furans, phenols, aminated hydrocarbons, dioxins, nitrous oxides, cyanides, etc. Pyrolysis of these kinds of mixtures produces toxins. The risks from ethanol (becoming ethylene or ethylene oxide) are relatively small. The toxic compounds from dabbing vs using a low temperature vaporizer can be found here:

http://www.maps.org/research-archive/mmj/vaporizerstudy4.15.03.pdf

Anyway, we could go back and forth over this forever. I agree with you that we need to be ultimately careful with what we ingest, strive for the cleanest meds we can make, and make good decisions based on our science.

 

[koclem]

I get what you are saying and we agree on some things and differ on interpretation on others (which is fine). I am not writing to fight and bore people but wanted to share my thoughts here.

First, I inquired about the vacuum level, they reported the vacuum runs between 15-18 kPa. This is consistent with keeping the ethanol boiling point around 100-105f. My machines are boiling/evaporating between 102-104f as measured by a thermometer left inside the cup during the process.

Your point about some silicone being unsuitable and of inferior quality is dependent on what product you are using. Silicones encompass a wide range of chemistries from China cheap to very well designed. Some are not as compatible with solvents like acetones or methyl ethyl ketones. Properly cured silicones are highly resistant to alcohols and plant phenolics, paraffins, and aromatic hydrocarbons like turpenes. Acetoxy cure silicones in particular are of low toxicity and associated with food-grade formulations. Coincidentally, acetoxy cure silicones are well-represented on the NASA low outgassing list. Their safety in a vacuum is not in question, and any curing outgassing is in the form of acetic acid, as found in vinegar, house italian salad dressing, and snack food flavorings. A partial vacuum in contact with ethanol, turpene, phenolic, and paraffinic vapors does not present a novel environment where reactions can occur with greater kinetics than at a similar temperature at sea level pressure. In fact, the reaction kinetics point in the other direction where pressure is reduced when comparing reactions like this at similar temperatures.

I think your concern about ethanol releasing ethylene may not be entirely spelled out. First, if there were any ethanol remaining in a well purged final product it would be nearly undetectable even on a per millions scale. More importantly, for the ethanol to transform to ethylene it would need to be heated to a dab nail temperature, under pressure of nearly 30-40 times atmospheric pressure in the presence of a non-existent catalyst. The chances of this are obviously negligible. Lastly, Ethylene gas is widely used to ripen vegetables and is produced from the pyrolysis of pretty much anything- barbeques, roasting a turkey in the oven, making toast, etc.

While I mentioned pyrolysis, and you mentioned the want of ‘unspoiled meds’, please keep in mind pyrolysis (dabbing) of any decomposition of the phenols, turpenes, and paraffins in the pyrolysis of plant extract (cannabis) yields significantly greater chemical exposure compared to alcohol vapor. Most gasses are asphyxiants, including the nitrogen that comprises, on average, about 78% of the air we breathe. The dabber is still left with the more troubling furans, phenols, aminated hydrocarbons, dioxins, nitrous oxides, cyanides, etc. Pyrolysis of these kinds of mixtures produces toxins. The risks from ethanol (becoming ethylene or ethylene oxide) are relatively small. The toxic compounds from dabbing vs using a low temperature vaporizer can be found here:

http://www.maps.org/research-archive/mmj/vaporizerstudy4.15.03.pdf

Anyway, we could go back and forth over this forever. I agree with you that we need to be ultimately careful with what we ingest, strive for the cleanest meds we can make, and make good decisions based on our science.

a few posts back @IchiBanCrafter seemed relatively clueless about the internals and had no idea how hot his source was running (140F) and now he is a chemist and his source no longer runs at 140F !?!?!?!?

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

a few posts back @IchiBanCrafter seemed relatively clueless about the internals and had no idea how hot his source was running (140F) and now he is a chemist and his source no longer runs at 140F !?!?!?!?

That is quite aggressive and nasty but it's ok. A year ago I was very clueless when I took this on as a hobby. I was unsure of the health risks like what has been pointed out here on this thread. I am no chemesit nor a scientist but have access to many whom I constantly ply for information and direction to insure I have the most accurate information possible. Quite simply koclem it's called learning and contributing positively to the community.

On the temperature of the two units I am using. They were running hot around 140 or higher so I returned them and got new ones that have been running at a solid 100-105. If you would like to know the improvements please contact them for details.

Hopefully this allows you to participate with positive discourse in the future.

 

[koclem]

That is quite aggressive and nasty but it's ok. A year ago I was very clueless when I took this on as a hobby. I was unsure of the health risks like what has been pointed out here on this thread. I am no chemesit nor a scientist but have access to many whom I constantly ply for information and direction to insure I have the most accurate information possible. Quite simply koclem it's called learning and contributing positively to the community.

On the temperature of the two units I am using. They were running hot around 140 or higher so I returned them and got new ones that have been running at a solid 100-105. If you would like to know the improvements please contact them for details.

Hopefully this allows you to participate with positive discourse in the future.

hey man I am not trying to insult you but considering your admitted close relationship with the manufacturer, near identical website name as the reseller that went out of business and sudden expertise in chemistry something just doesnt make sense here

and you never mentioned you got a new unit and you are measuring teh temperature differently than you were before

also you say a year ago you were clueless about the inner working of the source? a few weeks ago you were too by reading your posts

you are seriously going to have me believe you wrote the following paragraphs? you are an expert now?


"
Your point about some silicone being unsuitable and of inferior quality is dependent on what product you are using. Silicones encompass a wide range of chemistries from China cheap to very well designed. Some are not as compatible with solvents like acetones or methyl ethyl ketones. Properly cured silicones are highly resistant to alcohols and plant phenolics, paraffins, and aromatic hydrocarbons like turpenes. Acetoxy cure silicones in particular are of low toxicity and associated with food-grade formulations. Coincidentally, acetoxy cure silicones are well-represented on the NASA low outgassing list. Their safety in a vacuum is not in question, and any curing outgassing is in the form of acetic acid, as found in vinegar, house italian salad dressing, and snack food flavorings. A partial vacuum in contact with ethanol, turpene, phenolic, and paraffinic vapors does not present a novel environment where reactions can occur with greater kinetics than at a similar temperature at sea level pressure. In fact, the reaction kinetics point in the other direction where pressure is reduced when comparing reactions like this at similar temperatures.

I think your concern about ethanol releasing ethylene may not be entirely spelled out. First, if there were any ethanol remaining in a well purged final product it would be nearly undetectable even on a per millions scale. More importantly, for the ethanol to transform to ethylene it would need to be heated to a dab nail temperature, under pressure of nearly 30-40 times atmospheric pressure in the presence of a non-existent catalyst. The chances of this are obviously negligible. Lastly, Ethylene gas is widely used to ripen vegetables and is produced from the pyrolysis of pretty much anything- barbeques, roasting a turkey in the oven, making toast, etc.

While I mentioned pyrolysis, and you mentioned the want of ‘unspoiled meds’, please keep in mind pyrolysis (dabbing) of any decomposition of the phenols, turpenes, and paraffins in the pyrolysis of plant extract (cannabis) yields significantly greater chemical exposure compared to alcohol vapor. Most gasses are asphyxiants, including the nitrogen that comprises, on average, about 78% of the air we breathe. The dabber is still left with the more troubling furans, phenols, aminated hydrocarbons, dioxins, nitrous oxides, cyanides, etc. Pyrolysis of these kinds of mixtures produces toxins. The risks from ethanol (becoming ethylene or ethylene oxide) are relatively small. The toxic compounds from dabbing vs using a low temperature vaporizer can be found here:
"

I have no problem with you quoting other sources but you are passing this off as if you are the expert and author and that is what I am questioning

mod note: From the rules page- All members must be treated in a respectful and adult manner. If you think a rule is being violated, then you should report the post. Your post, OTOH, is attacking another member's integrity and is a violation of the rules.

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

hey man I am not trying to insult you but considering your admitted close relationship with the manufacturer, near identical website name as the reseller that went out of business and sudden expertise in chemistry something just doesnt make sense here

and you never mentioned you got a new unit and you are measuring teh temperature differently than you were before

also you say a year ago you were clueless about the inner working of the source? a few weeks ago you were too by reading your posts

you are seriously going to have me believe you wrote the following paragraphs? you are an expert now?


"
Your point about some silicone being unsuitable and of inferior quality is dependent on what product you are using. Silicones encompass a wide range of chemistries from China cheap to very well designed. Some are not as compatible with solvents like acetones or methyl ethyl ketones. Properly cured silicones are highly resistant to alcohols and plant phenolics, paraffins, and aromatic hydrocarbons like turpenes. Acetoxy cure silicones in particular are of low toxicity and associated with food-grade formulations. Coincidentally, acetoxy cure silicones are well-represented on the NASA low outgassing list. Their safety in a vacuum is not in question, and any curing outgassing is in the form of acetic acid, as found in vinegar, house italian salad dressing, and snack food flavorings. A partial vacuum in contact with ethanol, turpene, phenolic, and paraffinic vapors does not present a novel environment where reactions can occur with greater kinetics than at a similar temperature at sea level pressure. In fact, the reaction kinetics point in the other direction where pressure is reduced when comparing reactions like this at similar temperatures.

I think your concern about ethanol releasing ethylene may not be entirely spelled out. First, if there were any ethanol remaining in a well purged final product it would be nearly undetectable even on a per millions scale. More importantly, for the ethanol to transform to ethylene it would need to be heated to a dab nail temperature, under pressure of nearly 30-40 times atmospheric pressure in the presence of a non-existent catalyst. The chances of this are obviously negligible. Lastly, Ethylene gas is widely used to ripen vegetables and is produced from the pyrolysis of pretty much anything- barbeques, roasting a turkey in the oven, making toast, etc.

While I mentioned pyrolysis, and you mentioned the want of ‘unspoiled meds’, please keep in mind pyrolysis (dabbing) of any decomposition of the phenols, turpenes, and paraffins in the pyrolysis of plant extract (cannabis) yields significantly greater chemical exposure compared to alcohol vapor. Most gasses are asphyxiants, including the nitrogen that comprises, on average, about 78% of the air we breathe. The dabber is still left with the more troubling furans, phenols, aminated hydrocarbons, dioxins, nitrous oxides, cyanides, etc. Pyrolysis of these kinds of mixtures produces toxins. The risks from ethanol (becoming ethylene or ethylene oxide) are relatively small. The toxic compounds from dabbing vs using a low temperature vaporizer can be found here:
"

I have no problem with you quoting other sources but you are passing this off as if you are the expert and author and that is what I am questioning

It is silly that I have to defend myself but I will because I have some extra time this morning.

The reseller was a reseller and went out of of business, I think they relaunched under a new name selling vape pens and such. I'm not sure how my blog posts which are simply sharing of the processes I have been working on equates to a reseller. I use wordpress which is pretty standard.

Like I said, I am no expert in chemistry but I have access to scientists to whom this stuff is elementary and they explain it very clearly, give me resources, and direction for me to figure it out. I have advanced degrees in other areas so studying and writing is something I have done for some time. I absolutely wrote my post using the input and reference to my friends' replies. Did I write it, yes. Is my knowledge much deeper than than, no. I am learning with every question and post and quite happy with my progress.

If you look back just a couple posts I absolutely informed the group that my new units were delivered and were working accordingly.

Now, I hope we can move on.

 

[koclem]

It is silly that I have to defend myself but I will because I have some extra time this morning.

The reseller was a reseller and went out of of business, I think they relaunched under a new name selling vape pens and such. I'm not sure how my blog posts which are simply sharing of the processes I have been working on equates to a reseller. I use wordpress which is pretty standard.

Like I said, I am no expert in chemistry but I have access to scientists to whom this stuff is elementary and they explain it very clearly, give me resources, and direction for me to figure it out. I have advanced degrees in other areas so studying and writing is something I have done for some time. I absolutely wrote my post using the input and reference to my friends' replies. Did I write it, yes. Is my knowledge much deeper than than, no. I am learning with every question and post and quite happy with my progress.

If you look back just a couple posts I absolutely informed the group that my new units were delivered and were working accordingly.

Now, I hope we can move on.

ok fair enough but I would love to hear what @herbivore21 has to say about the inner globe's metal base being attached to the glass housing with a thick ring of what appears to be household silicone of unknown origin that comes into direct contact with the reclaimed ethanol for the duration of the extraction

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

ok fair enough but I would love to hear what @herbivore21 has to say about the inner globe's metal base being attached to the glass housing with a thick ring of what appears to be household silicone of unknown origin that comes into direct contact with the reclaimed ethanol for the duration of the extraction

I must say I really don't understand your negative nature and propensity to cast shadows of uncertainty with statements like "what appears to be household silicone of unknown origin". If you were truly interested why don't you call the company and get the specs and go from there in an educated manner then the specter of the unknown becomes known without being alarmist. If this is not possible for you I am more than happy to do so for you. Having said that, I asked and researched this issue over a year ago which is where I gained my knowledge of different grades of silicone and based my decision to use this machine. I would share what I know with you but it may be better for you to do it yourself so you have more confidence in the information.

 

[Monsoon]

I get what you are saying and we agree on some things and differ on interpretation on others (which is fine). I am not writing to fight and bore people but wanted to share my thoughts here.

First, I inquired about the vacuum level, they reported the vacuum runs between 15-18 kPa. This is consistent with keeping the ethanol boiling point around 100-105f. My machines are boiling/evaporating between 102-104f as measured by a thermometer left inside the cup during the process.

Your point about some silicone being unsuitable and of inferior quality is dependent on what product you are using. Silicones encompass a wide range of chemistries from China cheap to very well designed. Some are not as compatible with solvents like acetones or methyl ethyl ketones. Properly cured silicones are highly resistant to alcohols and plant phenolics, paraffins, and aromatic hydrocarbons like turpenes. Acetoxy cure silicones in particular are of low toxicity and associated with food-grade formulations. Coincidentally, acetoxy cure silicones are well-represented on the NASA low outgassing list. Their safety in a vacuum is not in question, and any curing outgassing is in the form of acetic acid, as found in vinegar, house italian salad dressing, and snack food flavorings. A partial vacuum in contact with ethanol, turpene, phenolic, and paraffinic vapors does not present a novel environment where reactions can occur with greater kinetics than at a similar temperature at sea level pressure. In fact, the reaction kinetics point in the other direction where pressure is reduced when comparing reactions like this at similar temperatures.

I think your concern about ethanol releasing ethylene may not be entirely spelled out. First, if there were any ethanol remaining in a well purged final product it would be nearly undetectable even on a per millions scale. More importantly, for the ethanol to transform to ethylene it would need to be heated to a dab nail temperature, under pressure of nearly 30-40 times atmospheric pressure in the presence of a non-existent catalyst. The chances of this are obviously negligible. Lastly, Ethylene gas is widely used to ripen vegetables and is produced from the pyrolysis of pretty much anything- barbeques, roasting a turkey in the oven, making toast, etc.

While I mentioned pyrolysis, and you mentioned the want of ‘unspoiled meds’, please keep in mind pyrolysis (dabbing) of any decomposition of the phenols, turpenes, and paraffins in the pyrolysis of plant extract (cannabis) yields significantly greater chemical exposure compared to alcohol vapor. Most gasses are asphyxiants, including the nitrogen that comprises, on average, about 78% of the air we breathe. The dabber is still left with the more troubling furans, phenols, aminated hydrocarbons, dioxins, nitrous oxides, cyanides, etc. Pyrolysis of these kinds of mixtures produces toxins. The risks from ethanol (becoming ethylene or ethylene oxide) are relatively small. The toxic compounds from dabbing vs using a low temperature vaporizer can be found here:

http://www.maps.org/research-archive/mmj/vaporizerstudy4.15.03.pdf

Anyway, we could go back and forth over this forever. I agree with you that we need to be ultimately careful with what we ingest, strive for the cleanest meds we can make, and make good decisions based on our science.

Thanks for all the info! I think when it comes down to safety there are different levels of concern and it's just a matter of personal tolerance for that. It is a concern of many here since some may be more sensitive due to the ailments their treating. I'm of the opinion that small amounts are not an issue for the most part as long as they don't cause any short to medium term effects. I figure the cannabinoids themselves will help to counteract at least some of the negatives and that the benefits outweigh the downsides. I live in the big city so I likely get exposed to a lot worse walking down the sidewalk of a busy street or eating out.

Anyway the current unit seems to me to be pretty safe, the silicone job is a lot cleaner and there shouldn't be nibs coming off. I would like to see that replaced or covered in the future but it's fine as a first gen solution.

 

[Monsoon]

Finally got word back from them and my new unit will be shipping shortly. For some weird reason they only called people (no voicemail or email sent) so if you're still waiting give them a call or send an email to get your unit shipped out. I'm getting the impression they prefer to deal with customers over the phone which is fine but as an e-commerce company they should be communicating via email as well.

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

Hmmmm, I've watched this thread for a while even with my recent hiatus, but no pressure gauge nor objective measurement of vacuum pressure is provided with this product, which really limits it for my needs.

Also, I died inside a little bit watching that dude in the video put a cheap silicone container full of ISO/earl solution into a vacuum of unknown pressure. Please guys, don't put silicone in a vacuum like that unless you know exactly how that particular silicone polymer will behave in contact with such a complex mixture of solvents (both iso and terps).

Without a proper chamber pressure measurement (not a % of maximum pressure for that particular pump, which is subjective and is not useful for calculating whether you have got ideal conditions for purge or not) - there really isn't a way that you can be sure how that silicone will behave in there, not even with access to the scholarly literature on the topic (which will still require that you can measure the conditions within the chamber).

This does leave us with one other curious point though - Just what did the manufacturer expect the user will do to collect their earl from that metal dish? That dish has a narrower base than any of the glassware I use, with very high edges. It looks like scraping would be tough! You'd need a long tool and a lot of diligence (no pun intended)!

Have any of you guys who have one had any problems with this?

Of course, the oil in that video came out terrible. To be fair, I am sure this is to do with technique though - it looks like he ground up that bud and used ISO. This is gonna reliably give you not so great tasting black slop unless the iso barely makes contact with the bud.

I do think with better wash technique and the right tool to scrape that dish, that this could be used with great success for those wanting to make their own decent solvent extracts though.

If you have access to testing facilities, I'd still get my earlier batches tested for residual solvents until you can be sure you've dialled in the purge to remove all of the alcohol reliably. Peace of mind is a wonderful thing!

Do not rely on recovering the same volume of fluid from the purge as what you put in. This fluid may or may not contain fractions boiled out from the cannabis resin which may pad out the volume of recovered solvent and lead you to believe that all of the alcohol is out of the extract.

I owe you a big thank you. You got me thinking of different options for the final stages and you idea of glass paid off well for me. I have glass blowing friends and they made a cool flat bottom, beveled edge cup to fit inside the collector cup on the Source. I can reduce it down almost entirely in the glass cup then off to the vac. I would like to show photos but can't see how to here...... Anyway, thanks for broadening my horizons

 

[herbivore21]

I owe you a big thank you. You got me thinking of different options for the final stages and you idea of glass paid off well for me. I have glass blowing friends and they made a cool flat bottom, beveled edge cup to fit inside the collector cup on the Source. I can reduce it down almost entirely in the glass cup then off to the vac. I would like to show photos but can't see how to here...... Anyway, thanks for broadening my horizons

It is a great pleasure to have been of assistance sir! I suggest uploading your photos to imgur.com

Once you have the image uploaded, share the URL here It would be wonderful to see the solution you have had made! I wonder if some of our friends in here might like the same if it is an option to make more of them?

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

It is a great pleasure to have been of assistance sir! I suggest uploading your photos to imgur.com

Once you have the image uploaded, share the URL here It would be wonderful to see the solution you have had made! I wonder if some of our friends in here might like the same if it is an option to make more of them?

Ok, I think I figured it out.

photo of the simple glass vessel: http://imgur.com/Lm0KJp0

photo of vessel in the Source cup evaporating/purging: http://imgur.com/1ztWJ63

I know the earl looks pretty dark, which it is, but not green. My current project is to make good (or acceptable anyway) shatter from medium/low quality trim. If I were working with flower we would have a better color (I hope.....)

I think my friends would be happy to make them, even custom to order, but it might get a little expensive.

 

[herbivore21]

Ok, I think I figured it out.

photo of the simple glass vessel: http://imgur.com/Lm0KJp0

photo of vessel in the Source cup evaporating/purging: http://imgur.com/1ztWJ63

I know the earl looks pretty dark, which it is, but not green. My current project is to make good (or acceptable anyway) shatter from medium/low quality trim. If I were working with flower we would have a better color (I hope.....)

I think my friends would be happy to make them, even custom to order, but it might get a little expensive.

Fascinating and looking very nice! BTW what are those x's on the glass? We should expect that custom small unit quantity glass orders will be expensive but I am sure folks here will be glad to hear that this option is available!

Also no sweat on the dark solution in the dish - large quantities of concentrate mixed in low quantities of solvent will often look dark even when the shatter comes out relatively pale. Trim that has not been impeccably stored will reliably give us solutions and extracts that will always look darker and taste grassier even when using solventless techniques (and I should know!) - let alone solvent extracts where heat needs to be used in processing.

If you were working with high quality flower you should certainly expect paler coloring, if for some reason flower extracts ever turned out dark or green, try reducing wash time.

Most importantly though - keep on running that trim! - IMHO a wise man always spends his free time thinking on how to make the most of shake and trim The best gains are always made turning waste byproducts into decent meds!

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

Fascinating and looking very nice! BTW what are those x's on the glass? We should expect that custom small unit quantity glass orders will be expensive but I am sure folks here will be glad to hear that this option is available!

Also no sweat on the dark solution in the dish - large quantities of concentrate mixed in low quantities of solvent will often look dark even when the shatter comes out relatively pale. Trim that has not been impeccably stored will reliably give us solutions and extracts that will always look darker and taste grassier even when using solventless techniques (and I should know!) - let alone solvent extracts where heat needs to be used in processing.

If you were working with high quality flower you should certainly expect paler coloring, if for some reason flower extracts ever turned out dark or green, try reducing wash time.

Most importantly though - keep on running that trim! - IMHO a wise man always spends his free time thinking on how to make the most of shake and trim The best gains are always made turning waste byproducts into decent meds!

The 'X' marks on the glass are just etched artistic impression. I have 6 of them and each one is different.

My thought exactly on the trim and shake. Shake and trim has value, it just needs to be unlocked. Have definitely accomplished it with edibles, and getting really close on the smokeable now as well. As soon as the whole process is buttoned up I will blog it in detail and share.

 

[Monsoon]

After an additional delay for testing my unit is finally with FedEx and will be here by next Thursday. I have 1.2L of Blue Cheese ethanol solution sitting in the cupboard that I'm waiting to use with it when it arrives. Would probably take 3-4 days to evaporate and it cost $65 in alcohol so it's worth waiting for and I've got some tasty Girl Scout Cookies, Cannatonic, Powerplant and Pineapple to tide me over until then. I'll pick up a thermometer to place inside for temperature monitoring and try to evaporate 100ml of ethanol as before. I'm really excited to finally get this thing working and fully tested.

The reason no voicemail was left (at least for me) was because I don't have my name on the recording and due to the nature of the device and company they didn't want to have it heard by someone other than the intended recipient. So cheers for that! Still don't know why they didn't send an email but I get a sense they'll probably do so in the future if the occasion arises.

I do want to say that despite the issues with the unit and some other hiccups along the way the ExtractCraft team have always been polite and forthcoming with information and they seem to be working hard to limit the number of buggy units that go out now. I bet their QA is a lot better now too. I have many very long emails from them giving me an honest account of what's going on and responses have generally been timely. The company is still new and they just launched in April (only a month late which is pretty good) and I should have a working unit a grand total of 4 months after I pre-ordered it. It's actually not too bad in the world of crowdfunding and advanced pre-orders for startups, just a bit more hassle in my case. Patience is key when buying anything new like this and you always take the risk of just losing your money because shit just happens and/or sometimes people lie. So bottom line, despite some of the shadowy-ness around them that's popped up in the thread, I trust them as a company and I know that if there's an issue with it, the return process is easy. They ship me the unit with a return label for the old one which FedEx picks up at my door.

 

[Monsoon]

My new replacement base arrived today! I ran the same test as before and it didn't go higher than 120F which is much better and good enough for me. I'll keep the thermometer inside to monitor the temps and I can easily toggle the heater via the app by stopping/starting the process. I've got some Blue Cheese evaporating now in it, it only holds about 300ml at a time so I'll have to run it at least 4 times to reduce the entire 1.2L but it will be a good way to test the unit out. I should be able to write out a proper review of it after as well too.

 

[Monsoon]

It's working but it's slow going. The temps have been creeping up to between 120F and 130F (might be partially due to the heatwave here) so I've been cycling it on and off to try to keep the temps from getting too high for too long. I've got a thermometer inside so I'll turn it off once it pases 120f. Even if I leave it on for the 2-hour cycle, it's not getting close to being done in that amount of time. It's maybe closer to a 12 hours to evaporate a full container if you keep a close eye on it and change the ice frequently. I think these issues can be addressed via the app by increasing the max runtime from two hours and some kind of customizable schedule to cycle the heater on and off so it can be left mostly unattended (ice on top still needs to be changed for max efficiency). I'm also going to hunt around for close fitting glass container to place inside the unit to try to decrease the temp a bit.

Emptying the alcohol after is a bit of a pain since it falls out the middle too, pouring it out quickly into a large bowl seems to minimize the losses. It's also crazy loud when the compressor is running, louder than both my coffee grinder and vac pump. However it only needs to run for a minute initially and than a 2 second spurt every now and then.

Despite the issues, in the end I got back nearly a liter of alcohol and have so far saved about $50. This is one of the main reasons I got it so in that regard I'm happy with it. Another big reason was to contain the alcohol fumes which it also accomplished. The other stuff will hopefully be improved over time.

 

[herbivore21]

It's working but it's slow going. The temps have been creeping up to between 120F and 130F (might be partially due to the heatwave here) so I've been cycling it on and off to try to keep the temps from getting too high for too long. I've got a thermometer inside so I'll turn it off once it pases 120f. Even if I leave it on for the 2-hour cycle, it's not getting close to being done in that amount of time. It's maybe closer to a 12 hours to evaporate a full container if you keep a close eye on it and change the ice frequently. I think these issues can be addressed via the app by increasing the max runtime from two hours and some kind of customizable schedule to cycle the heater on and off so it can be left mostly unattended (ice on top still needs to be changed for max efficiency). I'm also going to hunt around for close fitting glass container to place inside the unit to try to decrease the temp a bit.

Emptying the alcohol after is a bit of a pain since it falls out the middle too, pouring it out quickly into a large bowl seems to minimize the losses. It's also crazy loud when the compressor is running, louder than both my coffee grinder and vac pump. However it only needs to run for a minute initially and than a 2 second spurt every now and then.

Despite the issues, in the end I got back nearly a liter of alcohol and have so far saved about $50. This is one of the main reasons I got it so in that regard I'm happy with it. Another big reason was to contain the alcohol fumes which it also accomplished. The other stuff will hopefully be improved over time.

Hmmm, I really want to know how temp control is managed in the electronics of this unit. Do they use a thermostat to detect the temperature that it is operating at? Is the thermostat calibrated and heater controller competent to achieve minimal fluctuations in temp? If not, we might see broad temp variation indeed!

Also I know that some thermostats used in household devices often measure temps from a less than ideal position in the unit, or with other factors leading to an inaccurate reading (such a thermostat might lead to the temp being consistently found to be a few degrees out one way or another). This can mean the temp the thermostat's thermometer is detecting is actually cooler, or hotter than the temp in the chamber itself. In this case, turning down the set temp to something lower than what you are going for will help you if you are getting chamber temps too high. The opposite if you get chamber temps too low of course.

Reading the manual for the source I can see that the app allows you to set a temperature. Which temperature are you dialling in on the app to get temps rising to 120-130f bro?

Remember the chamber is glass and will be prone to getting hotter in higher ambient temps, or situations where the unit is close to heat or light sources. The manual even warns that sunlight can be an issue here so make sure there's no window or similar nearby. If the thermocouple (thermometer) attached to the thermostat is measuring temps somewhere internally that is not likely to pick up on ambient heat, that could be why you are getting too much heat (as you say, there's a heatwave where you are atm).

This is a fascinating unit. I do wonder though, if 2 hours is the max time the unit can be left on, it really is not made for unattended processing is it? No tincture/solution is likely to be completely purged in that kind of timeframe!

I sure hope we can get to the bottom of this, if this unit can be dialled in just that little bit more, it really stands to do a lot of good for a lot of people!

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

Hmmm, I really want to know how temp control is managed in the electronics of this unit. Do they use a thermostat to detect the temperature that it is operating at? Is the thermostat calibrated and heater controller competent to achieve minimal fluctuations in temp? If not, we might see broad temp variation indeed!

Also I know that some thermostats used in household devices often measure temps from a less than ideal position in the unit, or with other factors leading to an inaccurate reading (such a thermostat might lead to the temp being consistently found to be a few degrees out one way or another). This can mean the temp the thermostat's thermometer is detecting is actually cooler, or hotter than the temp in the chamber itself. In this case, turning down the set temp to something lower than what you are going for will help you if you are getting chamber temps too high. The opposite if you get chamber temps too low of course.

Reading the manual for the source I can see that the app allows you to set a temperature. Which temperature are you dialling in on the app to get temps rising to 120-130f bro?

Remember the chamber is glass and will be prone to getting hotter in higher ambient temps, or situations where the unit is close to heat or light sources. The manual even warns that sunlight can be an issue here so make sure there's no window or similar nearby. If the thermocouple (thermometer) attached to the thermostat is measuring temps somewhere internally that is not likely to pick up on ambient heat, that could be why you are getting too much heat (as you say, there's a heatwave where you are atm).

This is a fascinating unit. I do wonder though, if 2 hours is the max time the unit can be left on, it really is not made for unattended processing is it? No tincture/solution is likely to be completely purged in that kind of timeframe!

I sure hope we can get to the bottom of this, if this unit can be dialled in just that little bit more, it really stands to do a lot of good for a lot of people!

Im pretty fascinated. My units are running around 105f on the highest stetting and doing about 3oz per hour, but when put on the lowest temp setting hovers around 100f and takes twice as long. I haven't seen my new units break 105f even one time unless it goes dry and even then it takes quite a while for the temperature to rise. I just don't understand the difference. I calibrated my therms so I know they are right. Ill be interested to find out what the difference is.

I was told the 2-hour time constraint was built in as a safety element.

As far as the temperature control goes, I don't completely understand it because I'm not a mechanical engineer, they said the temp control doesnt actually control the heat but it controls the pressure, which in turn results in the desired target temperature. I don't know if that pieces anything together or not.

 

[Monsoon]

Hmmm, I really want to know how temp control is managed in the electronics of this unit. Do they use a thermostat to detect the temperature that it is operating at? Is the thermostat calibrated and heater controller competent to achieve minimal fluctuations in temp? If not, we might see broad temp variation indeed!

Also I know that some thermostats used in household devices often measure temps from a less than ideal position in the unit, or with other factors leading to an inaccurate reading (such a thermostat might lead to the temp being consistently found to be a few degrees out one way or another). This can mean the temp the thermostat's thermometer is detecting is actually cooler, or hotter than the temp in the chamber itself. In this case, turning down the set temp to something lower than what you are going for will help you if you are getting chamber temps too high. The opposite if you get chamber temps too low of course.

Reading the manual for the source I can see that the app allows you to set a temperature. Which temperature are you dialling in on the app to get temps rising to 120-130f bro?

Remember the chamber is glass and will be prone to getting hotter in higher ambient temps, or situations where the unit is close to heat or light sources. The manual even warns that sunlight can be an issue here so make sure there's no window or similar nearby. If the thermocouple (thermometer) attached to the thermostat is measuring temps somewhere internally that is not likely to pick up on ambient heat, that could be why you are getting too much heat (as you say, there's a heatwave where you are atm).

This is a fascinating unit. I do wonder though, if 2 hours is the max time the unit can be left on, it really is not made for unattended processing is it? No tincture/solution is likely to be completely purged in that kind of timeframe!

I sure hope we can get to the bottom of this, if this unit can be dialled in just that little bit more, it really stands to do a lot of good for a lot of people!

Yeah it could be environmental to a degree, I'll have to do more testing with pure ethanol which I'm not worried about overcooking. The app has been a bit buggy when turning it on and off a lot so I usually used the physical button on the machine which might be 105F, not sure. I don't know how it's laid out internally but I think the closest they can get the thermocouple is in the threaded base that the metal container screws into. I'm using a candy thermometer for lack of better options with the end touching the bottom edge of the container and I'm assuming it's reading a max temp so the rest of the solution may be lower.

I'm evaporating the last bit in the chamber now, from the smells of it terp loss was minimal and I wasn't super diligent about keeping the temps low throughout.

 

[IchiBanCrafter]

Yeah it could be environmental to a degree, I'll have to do more testing with pure ethanol which I'm not worried about overcooking. The app has been a bit buggy when turning it on and off a lot so I usually used the physical button on the machine which might be 105F, not sure. I don't know how it's laid out internally but I think the closest they can get the thermocouple is in the threaded base that the metal container screws into. I'm using a candy thermometer for lack of better options with the end touching the bottom edge of the container and I'm assuming it's reading a max temp so the rest of the solution may be lower.

I'm evaporating the last bit in the chamber now, from the smells of it terp loss was minimal and I wasn't super diligent about keeping the temps low throughout.

I stopped using the app until its fixed. Sometimes shuts the machine off without knowing it when bluetooth reconnects after being away from the machine. I just use the button and the manual said that give a factory default of 105f and 120 minutes. Anyway, good luck, bed time for me!

 

[Monsoon]

I stopped using the app until its fixed. Sometimes shuts the machine off without knowing it when bluetooth reconnects after being away from the machine. I just use the button and the manual said that give a factory default of 105f and 120 minutes. Anyway, good luck, bed time for me!

I wish they had went with wifi instead, still a lot of bugs in its implementation. I got one of those August Smart Locks when they first came out and it took them 6 months to get the connection issues smoothed out so I didn't have to worry about getting locked out without a key on me. That said they did fix it in the end. I think the Android Marshmellow is fixed now too, it's working on my Nexus 6P now.

@herbivore21 Any thoughts on altitude playing a factor? I'm at around 164 feet above sea level while the unit was designed and tested in Colorado at 5000 feet where I believe Ichi also is.

 

[herbivore21]

Im pretty fascinated. My units are running around 105f on the highest stetting and doing about 3oz per hour, but when put on the lowest temp setting hovers around 100f and takes twice as long. I haven't seen my new units break 105f even one time unless it goes dry and even then it takes quite a while for the temperature to rise. I just don't understand the difference. I calibrated my therms so I know they are right. Ill be interested to find out what the difference is.

I was told the 2-hour time constraint was built in as a safety element.

As far as the temperature control goes, I don't completely understand it because I'm not a mechanical engineer, they said the temp control doesnt actually control the heat but it controls the pressure, which in turn results in the desired target temperature. I don't know if that pieces anything together or not.

I did wonder from my reading of the manual if the 2 hour time limit was the safety shut off feature they mentioned. Obviously, the unit is not designed for full purges in one sitting unattended. This is not really a deal breaking issue anyway

However, I am concerned that it seems that the temp is not being controlled here, but rather only the vacuum. Ideally, when purging we need to be able to separately measure and control both chamber pressure, and the temperature of the heat being applied. If we do not have an objective chamber pressure measurement nor do we have actual temp control - it will be difficult to determine whether the conditions within the chamber are always going to be ideal for removal of the solvent in question.

Can the heater be powered on without using the vac? I would be interested to see what temp is maintained by the hotplate when there is no vacuum being applied! Please do let me know what you find if this can be done

Yeah it could be environmental to a degree, I'll have to do more testing with pure ethanol which I'm not worried about overcooking. The app has been a bit buggy when turning it on and off a lot so I usually used the physical button on the machine which might be 105F, not sure. I don't know how it's laid out internally but I think the closest they can get the thermocouple is in the threaded base that the metal container screws into. I'm using a candy thermometer for lack of better options with the end touching the bottom edge of the container and I'm assuming it's reading a max temp so the rest of the solution may be lower.

I'm evaporating the last bit in the chamber now, from the smells of it terp loss was minimal and I wasn't super diligent about keeping the temps low throughout.

I am very curious about the electronics in this device now! If the unit only varies the pressure and not the temp, then your next and most recent comment about local altitude and barometry may be relevant in explaining the difference between yourself and Ichibancrafter. However, I would need to know if/how the unit measures and adjusts the pressure/temp to reach the target to be certain!

I stopped using the app until its fixed. Sometimes shuts the machine off without knowing it when bluetooth reconnects after being away from the machine. I just use the button and the manual said that give a factory default of 105f and 120 minutes. Anyway, good luck, bed time for me!

I would probably do the same, IME bluetooth is not the most reliable of technologies out there!

 

[Monsoon]

Can the heater be powered on without using the vac? I would be interested to see what temp is maintained by the hotplate when there is no vacuum being applied! Please do let me know what you find if this can be done

I don't think so, the heater is only on when the process is going and any pressure loss will activate the compressor.

I still have my last base and I have some time before I have to get it to FedEx so I might be able to do some tests with that one that they can try to replicate when it gets back up there.