The Pinnacle by Vaporblunt

[Timothy]

So is the iolite/inh/volcano/davinci/20 vapes I have never heard of all unsafe? How could a vape ever function without the ability to inhale from a chamber that is 300-400f that contains hot air? In this case I do believe I may be the authority, vaporization can not occur without 300-400 degrees of hot air

I will be more clear, I assumed you read my first post since you quoted it. I meant safe for that hot of air in the 300+ degree F range, to be exposed to any plastic that will be directly inhaled. I edited my post above.

*And to those who mentioned FDA, I assume we are talking food safe? If the mouthpiece was separated from the heat it would not pose a problem (why I mentioned earler that you could line the interior of mouthpiece with 300 series stainless steel). Food safe has many limits, I call it fine print, major examples being: temperature and chemical exposure) Let me tell you from personal experience dealing with the FDA through CDC, they are late to react to any potential threats.

 

[satyrday]

they are late to react to any potential threats.

I'll buy potential, but proven? I agree that there are a lot unknowns, and I'm sure there are also some probable health concerns in vapeland, but there are many issues that get debated here that really are unproven one way or the other. If it's your opinion I'll accept that (as an opinion) - plenty of opinions voiced here and I understand you say you're an epidemiologist so that should be taken into consideration as well.

 

[Dreamerr]

As TRVB said most vapes including the INH and DV are made of plastic. They can also be cleaned with iso with no issue so something else has to be going on here. I would like to trust that this will all get sorted out and we will find the culprit and the issue can be fixed fingers crossed.

Breathemetal, I can't see any way to get the sticky stuff off a vape without some sort of chemical unfortunately. We were told we can boil this mp as well as some other vapes we boil glass. I will say even boiling the glass from my solo doesn't leave them clean enough to make the travel safe or even if that isn't the purpose to take the smell away. To me the look of clean class is pretty but not important it is the smell and those oils that just cling to the plastics, glass, your hands and whatever else it comes in contact with. When my hands get that oily soap and water doesn't cut it. I actually have to use iso on my hands to get it off and it still isn't easy.

TRVB, if I misstated or mislead I apologize but I thought you said a while back that the vapes were put together in China or at least that is where the parts come from. Are your products totally USA made?

 

[b0]

As TRVB said most vapes including the INH and DV are made of plastic. They can also be cleaned with iso with no issue so something else has to be going on here. I would like to trust that this will all get sorted out and we will find the culprit and the issue can be fixed fingers crossed.

Exactly, that's why I thought they should search a better plastic. I soaked all the tubing of my Iolite and clean every part of it with 99% ISO for a year of heavy use (was my only vape) without any tipe of problem of the plastic. I don't know what tipe of plastic it was, but I know it was resistant enough to not flake or melt for everyday use/clean, and I usually clean the tubes/bowl 2 times a week soaking them in 99% iso and shaking. Obviusly there is a problem in the quality of the plastic TRVB use, don't know if it's for the temperature, iso or what, but is not as durable as the plastic other vapes use, if not people will be having the same problem in that vapes post...

 

[BlueCloud]

i have to say that i use my pinnacle without a mouthpiece and it doesnt burn my mouth at all so i dont understand how it could degrade the FDA plastic MP with heat there absolutely has to be another cause behind this

I wonder if the build up of oils are reacting with the plastic.

 

[overvaped]

Just a guess,
could it be related with the hot metallic bullet touching the motuhpiece? By the end of a session my unit is really hot...

 

[TherealVaporblunt]

As TRVB said most vapes including the INH and DV are made of plastic. They can also be cleaned with iso with no issue so something else has to be going on here. I would like to trust that this will all get sorted out and we will find the culprit and the issue can be fixed fingers crossed.

Breathemetal, I can't see any way to get the sticky stuff off a vape without some sort of chemical unfortunately. We were told we can boil this mp as well as some other vapes we boil glass. I will say even boiling the glass from my solo doesn't leave them clean enough to make the travel safe or even if that isn't the purpose to take the smell away. To me the look of clean class is pretty but not important it is the smell and those oils that just cling to the plastics, glass, your hands and whatever else it comes in contact with. When my hands get that oily soap and water doesn't cut it. I actually have to use iso on my hands to get it off and it still isn't easy.

TRVB, if I misstated or mislead I apologize but I thought you said a while back that the vapes were put together in China or at least that is where the parts come from. Are your products totally USA made?

Thanks Dreamerr,

I do not talk about where or how our parts are made very often, but let me run through this real quick. Our products are assembled and engineered 100% in the USA. Some of the parts are unavoidable to get from china ex: batteries, screens..., but we try to purchase the least amount from overseas as possible, not so much because of health concerns but more because they steal people products and make shitty copies that ruin people's life's. I live in Los Angeles and we have had 2 or 3 people come around trying to sell us fake pax, packaging and all.

Back on subject, we use only the finest and best available for the prices range we are working with. It's not as simple as simply redesigning a part, I would have to purchase a new mold (40-50k) and scrap the entire inventory. Not to say I won't do it, but it will take scientific evidence of a serious problem for me to consider that. Someone (sorry it's too early to read back) said that we "have ignored the issue of fogging" it's not that I ignored it, it's that it wasn't worth losing 50+ thousand dollars over. Cosmetics aside, if there is an issue with the functionality I will press the redo button in 1/10 of a second rest assured.

Just a guess,
could it be related with the hot metallic bullet touching the motuhpiece? By the end of a session my unit is really hot...

I thought about this last night but it seems impossible. I dump the bullet into my hands sometimes and pass it from left to right like a hot potato, it seems like it would burn my skin before the PES. Maybe if you held a scorching hot bullet with tweezers and pressed down hard on the MP, but I highly doubt Dreammer would do that so I do not believe this is the issue. I must assume this has something to do with iso until test prove otherwise. We are soaking parts in iso right now and the we are going to hook them up to a heat source until they melt to determine melting point. which is a common practice (without the iso soak) during pre release stages that we have already done before we sell the first unit.

We destroy 60-100 units of every new vape during initial QC at a great cost to the company to avoid situations like this. I have to agree with engineering that it is most likely iso related, but I will get hard proof over this week and next once I receive dreamerr's unit back. Thanks for everyone's cooperation as I deal with this issue.

Edit: not to sound defensive, but the proof that it's American PES lies in the fact that we switched to tinted mp in less than a week. If we were going overseas in would take 60-90 days to get here and clear customs. Producing in the usa is the reason we drop new products so frequently.

 

[slowandsteady]

TRVB - As someone who has great interest in the product, I think it speaks volume of you and your organization that you are this engaged in trying to determine the root cause. Thanks.

 

[lookhigh]

TRVB we are looking forward to the results of your tests. In the mean time i may have an idea. If a tube was inserted into the MP where the screen goes, something like the bullet upside down . that would seal onto the bullet into to unit. or could be manufactured in glass making an all glass airpath?. maybe a possible accessory?

 

[Shmoo]

Thank you for caring about the community TRVB. I do want to point out though, please make sure to iso soak the MPs and PonGs in 99% iso, instead of the 50% (thanks t-dub) I believe you or Engineering stated you used in a previous post. Besides that, keep up the good work!

 

[Dreamerr]

If it is the iso we still have an issue. Like was said by B0 we all use iso to clean those excess oils as it is the only real way to get it off. Other vapes made out of more then likely the same plastics aren't haven't that issue. If I have to guess from no knowledge of how this stuff works maybe it is a combination of iso and heat?

 

[t-dub]

Actually they were testing with 50% . . . . like Dreamerr said, I have NEVER had a plastic part on any vape, or anything else for that matter, react with ISO this way, ever. Granted I used Simple Green on mine, but that is alcohol based, so I'm not surprised the results were similar.

 

[TherealVaporblunt]

I just got out of a epically long meeting with engineering. I can absolutely guarantee that in no way has any MP's melted, it is actually impossible I was told by multiple people. Engineering will be making a post most likely tomorrow explaining all the details, I could paraphrase but I'm going to choose not to so I do not give out anymore false information. I stated yesterday that the material is pes, that is wrong. If your read through engineering comments about materials he states that the mp and pong are PC. PES is what we use when we are close to the heater, which the mp and pong are not. With that said, I will let engineering make his post before I say anything else inaccurately.

Engineering really wanted to inspect dreamerrs damaged goods before posting an opinion, I told them that was not exceptable and I would like him to make a speculative post. I have asked him to link the exact PC information directly given to us from Bayer, as well as a stance from us on what is an exceptable cleaning solution so that you could warranty the parts if they were to chip or soften before a certain time frame. I will wait for his post before I share anymore details. Thanks for your time, I'm working on this issue diligently.

 

[lookhigh]

Just gave my mp a clean, i used boiling water and dipped the mp in and rubbed with tissue paper and repeat, got it well clean. BTW dreamer hows your dog doing (i love dogs, more trustworthy than most humans)

 

[Engineering]

Like TVRB has said, I am hesitant to post a conclusive response until I have seen the issues that Dreamerrs cap shows, since I can only glean so much from a photo on a web forum. So, until I can get conclusive results for everyone, I will discuss the issue of Plastics and the use of PC.


First, we use Bayer Makrolon 2805 resin to injection mold the Mouthpieces and PONG's. Makrolon is Bayer's brand name for the plastic popularly known as PC. It melts at 300C (572F), which is way above the temperatures that Pinnacle can reach. So no, we are not melting the plastic.Even the Glass transition temperature (which is where the PC will become soft, and deform-able) will not occur until 145C (293F) We have not been able to measure temperatures in the cap that approach 145C.

For a theoretical case: let's assume that the Cap/PonG is reaching the Glass transition temp of 145C. This does not mean that the plastic is melting, or releasing any harmful by-products - it means that it has lost some structural integrity and can be easily deformed. So if a cap that has just been used is handled (ie. trying to remove the screen) it would be very easy to deform the plastic and get results similar to what Dreamerrs' pictures show.

Use of Iso on PC: The PC is fine when exposed to ISO alone. Notice that if the Iso was attacking the PC the ENTIRE part would be fogged, not just the air path. This means something else is happening. it looks to me that the PonG's in the pictures are stained, but I can't see any damage (save the chip on Dreamerrs PonG) beyond that. One downside of Plastic is that it is porous, compared to glass, so it stains much easier. We can't do much about that.

Again, we will continue to look into the problem. Thank you for your support!

 

[GreenRoom]

Gotta love a company who has their engineer personally post info. I've been contemplating the Pinnacle for a while now and this display of customer support just sold me on the product ten times over.

 

[TherealVaporblunt]

Like TVRB has said, I am hesitant to post a conclusive response until I have seen the issues that Dreamerrs cap shows, since I can only glean so much from a photo on a web forum. So, until I can get conclusive results for everyone, I will discuss the issue of Plastics and the use of PC.


First, we use Bayer Makrolon 2805 resin to injection mold the Mouthpieces and PONG's. Makrolon is Bayer's brand name for the plastic popularly known as PC. It melts at 300C (572F), which is way above the temperatures that Pinnacle can reach. So no, we are not melting the plastic.Even the Glass transition temperature (which is where the PC will become soft, and deform-able) will not occur until 145C (293F) We have not been able to measure temperatures in the cap that approach 145C.

For a theoretical case: let's assume that the Cap/PonG is reaching the Glass transition temp of 145C. This does not mean that the plastic is melting, or releasing any harmful by-products - it means that it has lost some structural integrity and can be easily deformed. So if a cap that has just been used is handled (ie. trying to remove the screen) it would be very easy to deform the plastic and get results similar to what Dreamerrs' pictures show.

Use of Iso on PC: The PC is fine when exposed to ISO alone. Notice that if the Iso was attacking the PC the ENTIRE part would be fogged, not just the air path. This means something else is happening. it looks to me that the PonG's in the pictures are stained, but I can't see any damage (save the chip on Dreamerrs PonG) beyond that. One downside of Plastic is that it is porous, compared to glass, so it stains much easier. We can't do much about that.

Again, we will continue to look into the problem. Thank you for your support!

Thank you engineering.

2 questions I need to clear up.

1: is boiling safe than or will that cause it to enter the glass transition phase?

2: is 50% ISO a recommended cleaning solution?

 

[toros23]

Gotta love a company who has their engineer personally post info. I've been contemplating the Pinnacle for a while now and this display of customer support just sold me on the product ten times over.

Engineering posted this back on April 2nd:

The investigation continues...
Just an update on the Mouthpieces: we use Bayer Polycarbonate (Yes the same Bayer that makes Aspirin) It is rated to resist all alcohols, with the exception of Methyl alcohol (which is not ISO). And our tests in-house show no problems with ISO exposure.

I am still looking into the problem, and don't want to confuse anyone with poor information. For now all I can say is we do take it seriously and are working on a solution for cleaning that will satisfy everyone.

This recent post just looks like more of the same.. There is a problem with the mouthpiece and it is obvious to most of us that have owned and used our units for any length of time.

Dreamerrr - Have you even been contacted by TRVB or engineering yet?

 

[b0]

Your answer is really apreciated Engineering! One thing that caught my attention is that every time TRVB talks about the plastic ends talking about new molds and how much it cost. I know they're really expensive so just out of curiosity, can't you change the plastic used without changing the molds?

Also I have been talking a lot about plastics used in Iolite (sorry if bother someone, not my intention) because I never had this kind of problem with it while I have it. I searched what plastic was used and found that the outside is "Ultem 1000" and the inside is "DuPont Automotive Zenite liquid crystal polymer". Anyone know the diference between this and "Bayer Makrolon 2805 resin"?

 

[TherealVaporblunt]

Engineering posted this back on April 2nd:

This recent post just looks like more of the same.. There is a problem with the mouthpiece and it is obvious to most of us that have owned and used our units for any length of time.

Dreamerrr - Have you even been contacted by TRVB or engineering yet?

It is more of the same, because it is the answer. We use Bayer products and thy are safe to use with iso as we've been told. I wish I could make up something that sounds more elaborate but it is simply the facts I guess. And yes, I have spoke to dreamerr. I hope to have her unit back by the end of this week.

 

[Engineering]

Your answer is really apreciated Engineering! One thing that caught my attention is that every time TRVB talks about the plastic ends talking about new molds and how much it cost. I know they're really expensive so just out of curiosity, can't you change the plastic used without changing the molds?

Also I have been talking a lot about plastics used in Iolite (sorry if bother someone, not my intention) because I never had this kind of problem with it while I have it. I searched what plastic was used and found that the outside is "Ultem 1000" and the inside is "DuPont Automotive Zenite liquid crystal polymer". Anyone know the diference between this and "Bayer Makrolon 2805 resin"?

I actually looked at using both of these resins for the Pinnacle. Ultem doesn't have quite the heat range that I was looking for and LCP's are really expensive. We ended up selecting PES instead, it is very similar to LCP, but is more flexible, which was required for making the snap fit on the cap work (Lets not start the poor fit conversation.) Both of those would be for the heating chamber parts.

As far as changing plastic in the existing mold, that's sometimes possible, and sometimes not. it has to do with shrink and mold material. For example, you have to use a Stainless Steel mold ($$$) to injection mold PTFE since it will react with steel at molding temperatures and destroy the mold. All plastics shrink while cooling, and they all vary on the amount of shrink. We build our molds specifically to run a certain type of plastic, to do this the mold is actually larger then the desired part size by a few percent, so when it shrinks it is the correct size. Running a different plastic will make the part end up being slightly larger or slightly smaller than anticipated. Depending on design and plastic shrink difference this may or may not be ok.

As to TRVB's questions:
1) Boiling water is 100C (212F) and is perfectly fine to boil. it will not soften in water.
2) 50% ISO is fine, and recommended.

 

[toros23]

And yes, I have spoke to dreamerr. I hope to have her unit back by the end of this week.

Yeah, I understand you finally contacted her today.

 

[Engineering]

One other note, Since Toros23 brought it up, I left a PonG in Iso to test it back when we went thru this the first time. and forgot it. It has been sitting in there for MONTHS. Took it out today. No problems. Hope that puts the ISO "issue" to rest.

 

[toros23]

One other note, Since Toros23 brought it up, I left a PonG in Iso to test it back when we went thru this the first time. and forgot it. It has been sitting in there for MONTHS. Took it out today. No problems. Hope that puts the ISO "issue" to rest.

Just curious, what strength/percentage ISO?

 

[Dreamerr]

OK as toros said TRVB got in contact with me today and said to just send in the pong. I am sending in the original mp as well since that one was only used about a dozen times and if I cleaned it, it would have been once and quick as it was new and there were already iso issues. It has what appears to be staining but let the VB people figure that out. I never took my screens out except as noted in my post ONCE and saw the issue.

I have left parts from other vapes in iso for a long time as well with not issues. The issues we are seeing with this vape are NEW to anything I have seen. I personally couldn't care less about the staining however the plastic is not smooth anymore so there is some breakdown. The obvious melting LOOK is not a good thing. I still think it has something to do with the heat from the bullet that stays directly on that very part that did that. It could be a combo of the heat from the bullet on that part and the iso and some kind of chemical reaction of the two. If these parts are rated safe for heat and iso we shouldn't be seeing this issue.

I hope to get my return info soon so you can get my stuff and figure this out. I will be very sad if I can't use this vaporizer again because for me it was close to perfect for my needs and ease of use.

Please engineer I dealt with doctors that work in absolutes and now I am a paraplegic because of there stubbornness. Don't be like them, sometimes data doesn't tell you everything.

High thanks, my dog isn't speaking to me and is still very lethargic. I think it will take another day till she is back to normal but I am stuck without her help till then. She urinated for the first time about an hour ago since yesterday. She had a bowel movement and made a mess. She has her antibiotics and I hope she feels better soon and starts talking to me again. She looks so sad.