The Nomad From Morwood

[ragnorokk]

Fuuuuuck yeah! That's awesome. So are you thinking halogen heat source, and then a design similar in concept if not build to the DIY herb coils people have been doing on FC? Their projects all seem to require a few hours at least of hand-building complicated coil designs, but I'm sure there's at least some way to make it more of a quick repetitive exchanger build. Or are you looking at other options entirely for the heat source? I totally see the desire to go with Halogen, but I also think you should look into the heating elements used in some recent, 18650 powered mass market vapes. Boundless CFX is one that has a massively powerful heating element with solid battery life, and there's a Chinese rebrand called the Puri5 that supposedly works through convection for the most part. Obviously not suggesting to copy the designs, exactly, but grasping what they get right (quick heat up, convective properties) vs what they get wrong (ceramic & conductive bowl for CFX, etx.) could be a great help to designing yours. Ceramic rods are the choice for a lot of DIY builds, and they're in the 7th floor lineup of course. Could a short, portable size ceramic rod be easily sourced? They heat up very fast, very hot, and if the airflow could be lessened at the tip of the rod or at air intake maybe it could work? From my experience with 7th floor they are brutal but effective solutions for heating air over bud. People have been asking for a portable LSV for years now...

The ceramic rod the w9 Hercules uses is quite portable. Their bender also uses a fairly small ceramic rod, the hammer.

 

[Dan Morrison]

@namasteIII , I am leaning towards manual control. I think that temperature could be further regulated with airflow control via adjustable inlet valves, and adjustable heater to herb chamber distance. I like the idea of more mechanical means of adjusting heat to hit a general range or low, medium, high.

Precise temperature control and battery life would be sacrificed to gain design simplicity/durability and portability.

Alternatively.. dual 18650, OKR/Raptor chip, variable voltage. I'm still on the fence...

Thanks for the input!

Seeing as many people put portability as being low on their list of desired qualities... it might not be such a bad idea. I would use the same design as posted above.. just a bit larger.

But then again, there is just something special about manual control!

 

[Stevenski]

Seeing as many people put portability as being low on their list of desired qualities... it might not be such a bad idea. I would use the same design as posted above.. just a bit larger.

But then again, there is just something special about manual control!

Personally I care not for pocket portability but have a preference for a well designed artisan vape with class & quality. I am really enjoying the design direction this is heading too as it reminds me of that Star Wars Blade Runner vibe.

 

[Dan Morrison]

Han Solo blaster look. Or 80's alarm clock with fake plastic wood.

 

[Stevenski]

 

[Shit Snacks]

@phattpiggie , The calculations are pretty simple because the e-cig community has done all the leg work. I do like the mica supported coil, as used in hairdryers and the like, but with only 3.7v, that doesn't really leave you much coil length to play with, so that older design may not work so well.

The flat disc snake is a better approach, but IMO it would be better to set the coil up on a spiral tube. With a tube design you can use double wall tube to pass the airflow over the heater on the way down, and then over the heater again on it's way back up. With a compact setup like this it's crucial to pass the incoming air over the heater at least twice. I also believe that the spiral airway should exit the heater in a circular motion along the outside walls of the inner chamber area. There should be no mesh or screen between the heater and herb load. The idea is to keep the hot air circling around the outside walls to avoid the typical central hot spot created by convection heaters.

@Copacetic , I'm really not sure, that would need to be experimented with in the shop. Another point against halogen is the fact that I would have to use a dual 18650 setup. This adds slightly more complexity.

@YungLeaner , The Herbalizer bulb is 300w. Out of reach for a portable. But I do think that you're right, there does seem to be something about halogen. What I think it is..though.. is even heating. It throws heat all over the heating chamber.. heating up a fairly large surface area, as well as the bulbs surface. I think that this all helps to more evenly heat the airflow. With a bit of design, I think it's possible to do the exact same thing with a resistive element... perhaps even with greater speed and efficiency.

The manual style you're referencing is what I'm after, that's for sure! I like that style vs. electrical regulation. hahah, and yep, that's what we all like.. big heat, huge rips, intuitive control!

And multiple bulbs just won't do for what I have in mind, too much juice to power, not enough room for two bulbs/sockets.

Okay, so onto my latest! Been trying to narrow down that retro-future vibe, while moving closer to something easier to manufacture and modify. Here's what I've come up with. For any photography geeks in here, you might notice the infuence of a certain oldschool Russian camera..

The body would be stamped steel/aluminum and either oxidized or anodized. The wood veneer material could be changed to fabric, paint, leather, whatever. And there are plenty of amazing burl veneers that could be used. The LED lights are purely aesthetic, don't think i'd have room for much else on the inside.

Top right dial is the battery compartment lid and fire button. Another possible design would be to use the green/blue abalone inlay as the fire button. Also, if there was room, it'd be really neat to put a toggle switch somewhere so that the battery compartment lid could be swapped out for a 510 thread adapter plate. You could then toggle the main dry herb heater off, and engage the circuit flowing through the 510 adapter instead. You could pop on any 510 atomizer and away you go. Two in one!

I would also like to make a matching leather sleeve that slips on over the top of the unit, like a backgammon dice cup. This would cover the entire top half of the vape, protecting the glass stem and fire button while the vape is in transport.

Anyhow, been putting a ton of thought into this lately.. feeling so good about it!

Han Solo blaster look. Or 80's alarm clock with fake plastic wood.

Ah nice evolution Dan! Different from before but still got the vibe and looks more functional now. Definitely like that slip over lid idea (wish Milaana had something like that actually). Nice to see you moving on to the actual vaping part now with the heating elements... Design is perfect, LEDs just for show though?

 

[nondarb]

Their projects all seem to require a few hours at least of hand-building complicated coil designs, but I'm sure there's at least some way to make it more of a quick repetitive exchanger build.

No they don't, and coils are easily replicated using a simple jig and knowing how much wire to use.

The goal is on-demand convection. Preferably with a single 18650.

Then halogens out, good. Fires got me spoiled, I like fast.

I will be shifting my concept art from aesthetic design to heater design soon.. so more details on that in the coming weeks.

Interested to see what you come up with, I've heard you spitballing some wild ideas in other threads..

fake plastic wood.

Somehow Bakelite seems appropriate. I need more bakelite in my life Dan, help me out.

 

[phattpiggie]

Han Solo blaster look. Or 80's alarm clock with fake plastic wood.

Made me think of one of these

You got it down to a t with the view finder, the film winding knob and the button on top. One of those subliminal triggers perhaps. It looks the part, so far this is my favorite. Must be my age. If you could wrap that in a proper veneer and make sure it stayed put with a fine polish. Very nice.
Also on a battery note how about 26650, more mah and high discharge capacity. Not that much more bulky and they fit in a lot of the chargers 18650's do.

 

[Dan Morrison]

@phattpiggie , good eye! I straight up ripped off the design of the FED Russian film camera.

For one, I am a huge camera nerd. Two, I just love the styling of old film cameras. And three, I know this design can be manufactured with a stamped steel housing.

And those old cameras can take a damn beating!

I was also inspired by the prop business.. and how they usually repurpose all sorts of consumer products to build unique designs.

AND, it totally plays into the retro-future...scavenger..sort of thing. Building the future right ontop of the past.

As for the 26650, I was under the impression that 18650's had the more advanced tech. But after taking a look (not sure why I never bothered to!) seems that the 26650's would allow for better amp limit headroom, and a slight battery life increase.

I'll have to see if the size increase is worth it. It does look a bit...chunky..

@Shit Snacks - Thanks! And the LEDs in this design are just for show unfortunately.. I know there won't be room for anything else in there. It would be SO cool if I could make that a battery life indicator though... *sigh*. Chances are that LED array design will change into something more practical, but hopefully equally as cool looking.

 

[Farid]

I think the new design is the best. The others looked nice, but really had a box mod feel to them. In fact when I saw them, I thought to myself - oh no, I hope Dan doesn't get into making custom box mods and forget about weed vaporizers. The new design looks retro, sturdy, and functional. Reminds me of something I'd see on my grandfather's desk.

I've been in the market for a good on demand convection vape for a long time. I've almost pulled the trigger on other on demand convection units, but I'll be happy to wait and buy it from somebody I can trust.

 

[Dan Morrison]

Thanks @Farid , I think so too!

 

[shark sandwich]

I read about the lightbulb availability issues, and thought that ribbon kanthal would be a good alternative. It's user-servicible, efficient, and permanently available.

Ribbon kanthal comes in widths of almost 1cm. It can be twisted to form a helix, which could be placed in a tube or channel to provide efficient convective heat. The wire could be held in place at the ends with small screws, like is done in ecig atomizers, to make things easily servicible.

A lightbulb is just resistance wire sealed in a vacuum, which is one of the best themal insulators there is. A resistance wire in direct contact with the airpath should be much more efficient than one that's surrounded by insulation.

 

[Dan Morrison]

@shark sandwich , Agreed!

And I will definitely be experimenting with ribbon wire.

 

[Copacetic]

I read about the lightbulb availability issues, and thought that ribbon kanthal would be a good alternative. It's user-servicible, efficient, and permanently available.

Ribbon kanthal comes in widths of almost 1cm. It can be twisted to form a helix, which could be placed in a tube or channel to provide efficient convective heat. The wire could be held in place at the ends with small screws, like is done in ecig atomizers, to make things easily servicible.

A lightbulb is just resistance wire sealed in a vacuum, which is one of the best themal insulators there is. A resistance wire in direct contact with the airpath should be much more efficient than one that's surrounded by insulation.

Hmmm, I wonder if anyone can directly compare the ESV to the Apollo (both being well regarded examples of their respective tech's).
Or perhaps the Inhalater would best represent the 'ribbon tech' corner?

I'm not dismissing heated wire BTW (I have an INH' 05 wich I still rate fairly highly) just pointing out that halogen has also been proven to work very well despite the insulating properties of the gas in the bulb.
Halogen bulbs radiate a lot of light energy which can be 'harvested' for our use, despite the coil not being in the air path, but sealed inside glass.
The glass envelope itself gets very hot, which can also be exploited for our air heating purposes.
As long as the bulb and gas inside (not quite vacuum BTW) get hot enough to maintain the 'halogen cycle' the bulb should last quite well.
And since we're going for heat, premature bulb failure shouldn't be too much of an issue?

I really like the retro camera influence in your last design, but slightly mourn the loss of the sci-fi influence.
Maybe something that's still Rolleiflex/Hasselblad but with a touch more reto sci-fi as a nod to Han/Deckard is possible?

Hey, I just realised that halogen and the camera theme go quite well together too!

Can you tell I still favour halogen?

 

[shark sandwich]

@Copacetic

There are a number of vaporizers that use resistance wire, but none of them use the wire itself to as an intrinsic part of the heater core, intended to direct airflow as well as provide heat.

Generally the resistance wire is just a small obstacle in the airpath. A turbulating heater that forces air to contact it for an extended time should work better than a smaller, hotter, coil.

You're right about halogen bulbs being filled with halogen rather than a vaccuum. I still think that the bulb would be less efficient, sice it is still surrounded by gas and glass.

Gas and glass are good thermal insulators. They won't eliminate any of the heat that's generated, but will increase the heat ramp up time, and the total power usage as a result.

 

[ragnorokk]

I like the idea of near-instant convection over the halogen 1-2min heat up time, having become spoiled by my next gen devices. The replaceable nature of the halogen bulbs and the way it provides a factory-made heater for @Dan Morrison are definitely big draws, but once you have an instantaneous convection device, it's awful tough to go back...

 

[Copacetic]

That's my preference too ('instant' convection) which is why I've been suggesting a very low mass halogen heat exchanger to avoid long heat up times.

I like the idea of halogen for many reasons, but if having halogen meant giving up 'instant on', then I'd settle for a non light based heater tech'.

There are many good non light based portable/transportable vapes, but only one good halogen one so far, which gives it a cachet over conventional heater tech's IMO.

Besides, I wanna light-saber, not another set of curling tongs

An efficient low mass exchanger/dual 18650 arrangement might not require a lengthy warm-up as it could conceviably be set up to transfer energy to the air almost immediately.

Halogen is an already proven tech too.
But I think that there is more scope for development of a heater compared to the myriad of approaches which already exist for more conventional sources such as wire.

I feel that the only/main reason we're associating halogen with 'slow' warm-up in portables is that we've yet to see enough light based vapes to compete with instant convection tech' as found in bleeding edge vape tech like the RBT heater.

[/Soap-box ]

 

[YungLeaner]

That's my preference too ('instant' convection) which is why I've been suggesting a very low mass halogen heat exchanger to avoid long heat up times.

I like the idea of halogen for many reasons, but if having halogen meant giving up 'instant on', then I'd settle for a non light based heater tech'.

There are many good non light based portable/transportable vapes, but only one good halogen one so far, which gives it a cachet over conventional heater tech's IMO.

Besides, I wanna light-saber, not another set of curling tongs

An efficient low mass exchanger/dual 18650 arrangement might not require a lengthy warm-up as it could conceviably be set up to transfer energy to the air almost immediately.

Halogen is an already proven tech too.
But I think that there is more scope for development of a heater compared to the myriad of approaches which already exist for more conventional sources such as wire.

I feel that the only/main reason we're associating halogen with 'slow' warm-up in portables is that we've yet to see enough light based vapes to compete with instant convection tech' as found in bleeding edge vape tech like the RBT heater.

[/Soap-box ]

Yeah, I'm not clear on why the Herbalizer is capabale of instant heat up but no other bulb is? It is simply the 300W? Not possible with smaller W bulb?

 

[Dan Morrison]

Whether it's halogen or wire, 50 watts of power is 50 watts of power. Halogen throws about 10% of that power off as light energy, where as resistance wire emits almost no light energy, and all heat energy.

Even in a halogen 90% of the power used is lost as heat.

I think that the cool thing about halogen is that it throws energy in all directions, like a blanket. Depending on lamp/coil geometry, this would be a very even blanket of energy hitting the surface of the heat exchanger. The black surface of a heat exchanger would absorb the light energy and store it as heat to be transferred to the air.

The problem with halogen is bulb design. There are no 50w 6v bulbs on the market for a reason... it would probably have a very low lifespan. Even with a very efficient low mass heat exchanger, giving up all 20-30ish watts of power from a 6v bulb to the air stream, I don't think that is powerful enough for what I am imagining.

You would have to jump up to a higher voltage bulb, most likely a larger size as well.

Also, we are limited to a 2 battery setup to supply the voltage we would need. I would really like to stick with single battery.

And lastly, we still have to gather up that 90% chunk of the wattage that was used to make heat energy. That heat would mostly be stored in the glass of the bulb..and be continually escaping to the air. Getting a good conductive bond between a bulb and heat exchanger, while allowing for bulb replacement, would be very hard.

So you'd probably be just flowing the air over the surface of the bulb, which is fine, and has been shown to work great. But is it the MOST efficient?

The advantage of a wire is that the heater geometry is more customizeable. And the resistance wire shape/size/material can all be changed. You can have physical contact between the wire and the exchanger, increasing thermal conduction between the two. By having complete control over airway geometry, you can provide the optimal heat exchanging environment.

Also, I've been thinking that I want to go with something more in the 85w-65w range from fresh battery down to nominal, with a single 26650. The battery life would decrease slightly, but the heat up time would increase, so it may even out. I just want this thing to be a beast, hold the button for 2 seconds, and hold onto your pants.

EDIT: I'm now thinking that wattage is too much for a single battery. So nevermind. Even the 50A Sony 26650 is only good for 21amp continuous. A fresh battery would be pulling 20amps to give 84watts. I would need to step up to two batteries in order to have safe amp limit headroom. Best not to ride the bleeding edge of battery tech where a tiny error can cause a small explosion in your face.

 

[Shit Snacks]

Whether it's halogen or wire, 50 watts of power is 50 watts of power. Halogen throws about 10% of that power off as light energy, where as resistance wire emits almost no light energy, and all heat energy.

Even in a halogen 90% of the power used is lost as heat.

I think that the cool thing about halogen is that it throws energy in all directions, like a blanket. Depending on lamp/coil geometry, this would be a very even blanket of energy hitting the surface of the heat exchanger. The black surface of a heat exchanger would absorb the light energy and store it as heat to be transferred to the air.

The problem with halogen is bulb design. There are no 50w 6v bulbs on the market for a reason... it would probably have a very low lifespan. Even with a very efficient low mass heat exchanger, giving up all 20-30ish watts of power from a 6v bulb to the air stream, I don't think that is powerful enough for what I am imagining.

You would have to jump up to a higher voltage bulb, most likely a larger size as well.

Also, we are limited to a 2 battery setup to supply the voltage we would need. I would really like to stick with single battery.

And lastly, we still have to gather up that 90% chunk of the wattage that was used to make heat energy. That heat would mostly be stored in the glass of the bulb..and be continually escaping to the air. Getting a good conductive bond between a bulb and heat exchanger, while allowing for bulb replacement, would be very hard.

So you'd probably be just flowing the air over the surface of the bulb, which is fine, and has been shown to work great. But is it the MOST efficient?

The advantage of a wire is that the heater geometry is more customizeable. And the resistance wire shape/size/material can all be changed. You can have physical contact between the wire and the exchanger, increasing thermal conduction between the two. By having complete control over airway geometry, you can provide the optimal heat exchanging environment.

Also, I've been thinking that I want to go with something more in the 85w-65w range from fresh battery down to nominal, with a single 26650. The battery life would decrease slightly, but the heat up time would increase, so it may even out. I just want this thing to be a beast, hold the button for 2 seconds, and hold onto your pants.

What happened to metal (?)foam? That sounded neat and unique...

 

[YungLeaner]

Whether it's halogen or wire, 50 watts of power is 50 watts of power. Halogen throws about 10% of that power off as light energy, where as resistance wire emits almost no light energy, and all heat energy.

Even in a halogen 90% of the power used is lost as heat.

I think that the cool thing about halogen is that it throws energy in all directions, like a blanket. Depending on lamp/coil geometry, this would be a very even blanket of energy hitting the surface of the heat exchanger. The black surface of a heat exchanger would absorb the light energy and store it as heat to be transferred to the air.

The problem with halogen is bulb design. There are no 50w 6v bulbs on the market for a reason... it would probably have a very low lifespan. Even with a very efficient low mass heat exchanger, giving up all 20-30ish watts of power from a 6v bulb to the air stream, I don't think that is powerful enough for what I am imagining.

You would have to jump up to a higher voltage bulb, most likely a larger size as well.

Also, we are limited to a 2 battery setup to supply the voltage we would need. I would really like to stick with single battery.

And lastly, we still have to gather up that 90% chunk of the wattage that was used to make heat energy. That heat would mostly be stored in the glass of the bulb..and be continually escaping to the air. Getting a good conductive bond between a bulb and heat exchanger, while allowing for bulb replacement, would be very hard.

So you'd probably be just flowing the air over the surface of the bulb, which is fine, and has been shown to work great. But is it the MOST efficient?

The advantage of a wire is that the heater geometry is more customizeable. And the resistance wire shape/size/material can all be changed. You can have physical contact between the wire and the exchanger, increasing thermal conduction between the two. By having complete control over airway geometry, you can provide the optimal heat exchanging environment.

Also, I've been thinking that I want to go with something more in the 85w-65w range from fresh battery down to nominal, with a single 26650. The battery life would decrease slightly, but the heat up time would increase, so it may even out. I just want this thing to be a beast, hold the button for 2 seconds, and hold onto your pants.

EDIT: I'm now thinking that wattage is too much for a single battery. So nevermind. Even the 50A Sony 26650 is only good for 21amp continuous. A fresh battery would be pulling 20amps to give 84watts. I would need to step up to two batteries in order to have safe amp limit headroom. Best not to ride the bleeding edge of battery tech where a tiny error can cause a small explosion in your face.

I definitely understand the choice of wire for the heating element, then. Have you checked out what @Hippie Dickie is working on, the Bud Toaster? I'm fairly certain his heating element is made out of the same stuff. His device is about as regulated as it gets, but there might be inspiration therein re: heating element?

 

[Dan Morrison]

@Shit Snacks , After looking into that, the resistances are just way to low with metal foams that you can get today, as far as I can tell... You'd end up needing a super flat disc... and well, you might as well just use a metal fabric/mesh. Much cheaper, perfectly uniform consistency and weave.

I am currently looking at a mesh based heater, as seen in the "project" thread, even though the design was abandoned.

Take a look at this thread

Check out these images...

Here you can see how even that mesh is heating up.

Of course that mesh is much too hot, probably too fine of a weave as well. I would be looking at a thicker wire mesh, looser weave. Perhaps two discs stacked.

I think there there is something to this. A wire mesh has a nice geometry for airflow to come into contact with all that surface area. It'd heat up super fast, and cool down almost immediately. So I guess the downside is that once you're off the fire button, heat production from the heater will pretty much drop to zero in a couple seconds... But that also means that no heat is being lost after you're finished a draw, nothing wasted.

There would be no need for a heat exchanger in the actual heater, only a double wall exchanger to recycle stem/mouthpiece heat back into the incoming air for a pre-heat effect.

Though this could also mean that low temp vaping would be much harder. You would basically have full on, and full off. Because you don't have any residual heat in a heat exchanger/large coil to ride when you're off the fire button.

Also, I am thinking that the stem needs to be thin walled steel, with a wooden tip. Steel will be a much better heat conductor to transfer vapor heat through the stem wall, and transfer it into the incoming air flow. This would have a double effect of cooling outgoing vapor, and heating incoming air. And it's much more durable. It's a no brainer.

EDIT: Here is that mesh heater by Pipes.

As you can see, very uneven. And it came out to 0.05ohm. Much too low for single battery unregulated. But the concept is there! I believe it needs further investigation. A coarser weave, thicker wire, and a larger diameter central post...

 

[Hippie Dickie]

EDIT: I'm now thinking that wattage is too much for a single battery. So nevermind. Even the 50A Sony 26650 is only good for 21amp continuous. A fresh battery would be pulling 20amps to give 84watts.

have you looked at the A123Systems LiFePO4? 70 amps continuous, 120 amp 30 sec burst. both 18650 and 26650 deliver this.

and, speaking of wire, i swapped my 24" of 16 awg nichrome80 (0.5 ohm) for 14" of 1/8" x 0.01133" nichrome80 ribbon (0.43 ohm) - incredibly fast response - at least 3x faster ... well, the processor thinks it is at vape temp as soon as it starts, but that can't be right.

 

[Dan Morrison]

Welcome to the thread @Hippie Dickie , I check in on your bud toaster every now and again.. that thing is just pure awesome. The amount of work you've put into it is mind boggling! I just have no words.

As for the a123 systems LiFePO4..

Well, There are people out there much more obsessed about batteries than I will ever be. Over on the ECF forum, the user Mooch has compiled a god-like archive of battery information.

Here is his blog.
Here is his tests on the newest 26650 tech.

You can read on his blog that the a123 systems 26650 battery pretty much only has one advantage, safety. But it's just not nearly enough of an advantage to consider using that battery over what else is currently available.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

thanks, Dan. and thank-you for the links - good material ... lots of obsessed peeps on the internet.

my gf is a lawyer and has schooled me on liability ... the safety of the LiFePO4 chemistry is a major attractor. Plus the fast recharge - at 6A the cell can be recharged in 15 minutes.

another major attractor is 1000s of recharges before losing capacity ... and i've seen this with the batteries i've been using for 3+ years.

i've given up on trying to do a pocket friendly vape until the batteries evolve. So with two 26650's in series i can get 90 minutes of run time - actually, twelve 7.5 minute sessions. i usually recharge every other day, or third day ... so i can live with the lower capacity.

i'd like to see two 26650 shrunk down to a 2"x2"x 1/4" block that can attach under my cube.