The NEWS !!

[Caligula]

He's not a layman (like ourselves), he's a medical doctor.

That's not really a valid argument on the authors behalf IMO.

Andrew Wakefield was also a medical doctor as well as a medical researcher. My point is that the article was written for laymen and that the author uses this to obfuscate certain aspects within his citations.

To come full circle, this is exactly why blogs and opinion pieces (read: not scholarly or peer reviewed) like that can be so dangerous.

 

[CarolKing]

I thought the shops were a group of craft stores in the eastern southern states area. Also I thought the owners are Christians, stating it was against their religion to help pay for contraceptives.

 

[grokit]

That's not really a valid argument on the authors behalf IMO.

Andrew Wakefield was also a medical doctor as well as a medical researcher. My point is that the article was written for laymen and that the author uses this to obfuscate certain aspects within his citations.

To come full circle, this is exactly why blogs and opinion pieces (read: not scholarly or peer reviewed) like that can be so dangerous.

Okay then, he's a hugely successful integrative physician with a worldwide following.

Imo our peer-reviewed, scholarly medical culture has been thoroughly corrupted by profiteering, to the point that it is the reason that usa gets the worst care for the most money spent. The ama is a prime example:

"The American Medical Association (AMA) has lobbied the government to highly limit physician education since 1910, currently at 100,000 doctors per year, which has led to a shortage of doctors and physicians' wages in the U.S. are double those in the Europe, which is a major reason for the more expensive health care. An even bigger problem may be that the doctors are paid for procedures instead of results.

The AMA has also aggressively lobbied for many restrictions that require doctors to carry out operations that might be carried out by cheaper workforce. For example, in 1995, 36 states banned or restricted midwifery even though it delivers equally safe care to that by doctors, according to studies. The regulation lobbied by the AMA has decreased the amount and quality of health care, according to the consensus of economist: the restrictions do not add to quality, they decrease the supply of care. Moreover, psychologists, nurses and pharmacists are not allowed to prescribe medicines. Previously nurses were not even allowed to vaccinate the patients without direct supervision by doctors."

Check out the 2014 statistics; our medical system is the most expensive and least efficient of any modernized country, and we are continuing to fail at most if not all of the comparative rankings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healt...tem_effectiveness_compared_to_other_countries

But our pharma/insurance ceo's get the fattest bonuses, so we have that going for us

 

[Caligula]

Imo our peer-reviewed, scholarly medical culture has been thoroughly corrupted by profiteering, to the point that it is the reason that usa gets the worst care for the most money spent.

Well, then I guess it's a good thing that vast majority of scientists and medical professionals world wide are all on the same page here (vaccinations).

Or, I suppose it's possible that the vast majority of scientists and medical scientists on the planet are in on this massive cover-up, and are pocketing that mad research funding to help pay for their private mansions and yachts.

 

[basement farmer]

Okay then, he's a hugely successful integrative physician with a worldwide following.

Imo our peer-reviewed, scholarly medical culture has been thoroughly corrupted by profiteering, to the point that it is the reason that usa gets the worst care for the most money spent. The ama is a prime example:

"The American Medical Association (AMA) has lobbied the government to highly limit physician education since 1910, currently at 100,000 doctors per year, which has led to a shortage of doctors and physicians' wages in the U.S. are double those in the Europe, which is a major reason for the more expensive health care. An even bigger problem may be that the doctors are paid for procedures instead of results.

The AMA has also aggressively lobbied for many restrictions that require doctors to carry out operations that might be carried out by cheaper workforce. For example, in 1995, 36 states banned or restricted midwifery even though it delivers equally safe care to that by doctors, according to studies. The regulation lobbied by the AMA has decreased the amount and quality of health care, according to the consensus of economist: the restrictions do not add to quality, they decrease the supply of care. Moreover, psychologists, nurses and pharmacists are not allowed to prescribe medicines. Previously nurses were not even allowed to vaccinate the patients without direct supervision by doctors."

Check out the 2014 statistics; our medical system is the most expensive and least efficient of any modernized country, and we are continuing to fail at most if not all of the comparative rankings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healt...tem_effectiveness_compared_to_other_countries

But our pharma/insurance ceo's get the fattest bonuses, so we have that going for us

I'm having trouble following your argument grokit.

So what your saying is that vaccines are ineffective because the AMA, big pharma, insurance providers and corporate fat-cats are undermining our healthcare system?

I guess what I'm really asking is why is everything part of some vast conspiracy with you and why do you use one totally unrelated conspiracy theory to validate your seperate argument? Do you honestly think that those who don't fully agree with you on matters such as vaccination are simpletons that are incapable of understanding the greater world around them?

Peer reviewed medical research or anecdotal evidence....your choice. The rest is just semantics.

 

[Caligula]

I also want to talk about this "respected doctor with a world wide following".

First, I find it funny that I find his name mentioned along side "Natural News" right off the bat:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/9-reasons-to-completely-ignore-joseph-mercola-and-natural-news/

I don't think I need to rehash what I already said about Natural News and it's related blogs.

I suppose this is proof that Dr. Mercola is on the up and up and the evil FDA is just covering things up to prevent people from knowing the "truth" though:

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/mercola.html

Also LOL:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/08/03/15-years-of-promoting-quackery/

I would also like to mention that in searching the only PROPONENTS that I saw for this guy's work are from anti-vaccine blogs and other like minded sites such as Natural News.

"Respected world wide" needs some better qualifications IMO.

Edit: I wanted to note that I didn't know a single thing about this guy before now. I made my previous assertion regarding his articles validity after simply reading it's contents and reviewing his citations. I didn't research the actual author until just before this post.

 

[SSVUN~YAH]

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...-monty-python-live-london-20140701-story.html

Monty Python reunion to be broadcast to cinemas around the world The highly touted Monty Python reunion show that kicks off performances this week in London will also be seen in cinemas around the world, the comedy troupe's members announced. "Monty Python Live" is scheduled to be broadcast from London's O2 Arena starting July 20, with exact dates and times varying by country. Some countries will be able to see the cinematic broadcast live, while others will see recorded versions because of the time difference. Among the Los Angeles-area venues confirmed are AMC Universal Citywalk Stadium 19, AMC Burbank 16, Edwards Irvine Spectrum 21 and the AMC Orange 30. The show marks the eagerly awaited reunion of the surviving Monty Python members. The new production, which runs at the O2 for just 10 performances starting Tuesday, is expected to feature sketch comedy, dancing and live music. Monty Python veterans Eric Idle, John Cleese, Terry Gilliam, Michael Palin and Terry Jones are all expected to appear in the new show. Former member Graham Chapman died in 1989. At a London press conference Monday, the troupe was introduced by a video featuring Mick Jagger, who humorously described them as a bunch of "wrinkly old men trying to relive their youth and make a load of money." Monty Python has also released a teaser for the new show. Tuesday's performance at the O2 sold out in less than a minute when tickets for the performance went on sale late last year.

​

 

[basement farmer]

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...-monty-python-live-london-20140701-story.html

​

Ha, ha Terry Jones is making the same face in all of the pictures.

and now for something completely different...

http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=AP&date=20140702&id=17749824

 

[grokit]

"Respected world wide" needs some better qualifications IMO.

Edit: I wanted to note that I didn't know a single thing about this guy before now. I made my previous assertion regarding his articles validity after simply reading it's contents and reviewing his citations. I didn't research the actual author until just before this post.

Mercola.com happens to be the most-visited natural health website in the world.

So now you've learned another thing about him

Here are his qualifications, accomplishments and affiliations, they are quite extensive.

Because he couldn't help all of the many patients that want to see him, he started an educational website. Dr. oz otoh chose television. They are both well-respected as well as demonized, and they both help millions of patients that are not finding their medical needs met with traditional health care (like me).

If there wasn't a need for this kind of alternative health information, these guys would not be so successful.

There are many tens of thousands of health websites, so why is Mercola.com the #1 most visited natural health website of them all - and one of the world's most visited of all websites in any health category?

 

[Caligula]

Mercola.com happens to be the most-visited natural health website in the world.

So now you've learned another thing about him

There are many tens of thousands of health websites, so why is Mercola.com the #1 most visited natural health website of them all - and one of the world's most visited of all health websites in any health category?
Subscribe to The World's #1 Natural Health Website

The number of hits his website gets isn't a valid indication of legitimacy any more than adding the word "natural" to a name of an organization.

 

[grokit]

Nope, it just means that he gets the most traffic. All of the information presented on his website is extremely well-referenced, which makes it legitimate. I find it interesting that you keep making ad hominum attacks on the presenters of alternative health information, in place of discussing the information itself.

I'm having trouble following your argument grokit.

So what your saying is that vaccines are ineffective because the AMA, big pharma, insurance providers and corporate fat-cats are undermining our healthcare system?

No, I'm not saying that at all. These are entirely your words. Food for thought though!

 

[EveryDayAmnesiac]

 

[basement farmer]

The number of hits his website gets isn't a valid indication of legitimacy any more than adding the word "natural" to a name of an organization.

I have a conspiracy theory of my own.

Celebrity doctors always have a vast collection of literature that they've authored (which are available for purchase from their websites, amazon.com, or your local book store) Some even sell dietary supplements and other health products. ...discover the Doctor Mercola difference. http://shop.mercola.com/

They are motivated more by financial gain and less by altruism....

Fear mongering is the business and business is good.

 

[grokit]

I have a conspiracy theory of my own.

Celebrity doctors always have a vast collection of literature that they've authored (which are available for purchase from their websites, amazon.com, or your local book store) Some even sell dietary supplements and other health products. ...discover the Doctor Mercola difference. http://shop.mercola.com/

They are motivated more by financial gain and less by altruism....

Fear mongering is the business and business is good.

Another ad hominum attack, very nice!

I reject your theory completely, but I understand where you are coming from. When our medical needs are adequately met by conventional medicine most of us will feel the same way, until these needs are no longer met and we are forced to look elsewhere to get healthy. This is the definition of alternative. And when we don't understand what the big deal is with something, we invariably will look to discredit it.

The income generated by the sale of his products in no way disparages the quality of advice given at mercola's website, and imo enhances it for some of his readers. The financial success of the top alternative health sites like his is borne purely out of supply and demand, as there is a dearth of unbiased and agenda-free medical advice available. When your advice is repeatedly helpful and error-free, people tend to come back and tell others about it as well; that's where his traffic comes from. The only mercola product I've personally purchased is the chorella, at a discount off of ebay.

Do you honestly think that those who don't fully agree with you on matters such as [conventional vs. alternative medicine] are simpletons that are incapable of understanding the greater world around them?


I would be dead if it wasn't for so-called "alternative" medicine, and I am not alone. It's actually called integrative medicine when it's practiced by a properly qualified physician.

Those that do not share this experience do not understand it, but we are legion!

 

[Caligula]

I find it interesting that you keep making ad hominum attacks on the presenters of alternative health information

Another ad hominum attack, very nice!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

"Ad hominem arguments are the converse of appeals to authority, and may be used in response to such appeals."

And just to clarify further, the argument you are using is an "appeal to authority".

I should also point out that throwing around a black and white definition of "alternative" and "mainstream" is a major hang-up here.

There is a huge difference between suggesting someone take an herbal remedy for say their skin condition and making statements like "Vaccines cause autism".

That's not alternative medicine. That's dangerous quackery.

 

[basement farmer]

Ask Mike Landon how those detoxifying coffee enemas worked out for him....

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

"Ad hominem arguments are the converse of appeals to authority, and may be used in response to such appeals."

And just to clarify further, the argument you are using is an "appeal to authority".

I should also point out that throwing around a black and white definition of "alternative" and "mainstream" is a major hang-up here.

There is a huge difference between suggesting someone take an herbal remedy for say their skin condition and making statements like "Vaccines cause autism".

That's not alternative medicine. That's dangerous quackery.

 

[Snappo]

Wish I could find a doctor that practices real down home country 21st century medicine, who really cares to do good by all. All I could find were arrogant doctors who only regard their patients as ignorant - so called doctors devoid of curiosity, compassion, passion for medicine, time for their patients, yada yada yada. Experts all. All about the money - herd them in, herd them out. We are a society full of ills, empty of competence & care. And that, my friends, is "THE NEWS!!" I'm done.

 

[grokit]

Ask Mike Landon how those detoxifying coffee enemas worked out for him....

Too bad he didn't stay with those coffee enemas. He stopped doing them, and then he died.

Hollywood star Michael Landon was similarly diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. He, too, had been given three months to live, and he likewise tried the Gerson therapy. Landon appeared on the "Tonight" show, looking hale and hearty after only a short time on the Gerson program. Immediately afterwards, the narration says, Landon was warned off of the Gerson diet by his physicians. He abandoned it, and his condition promptly worsened. He later personally telephoned Pat and told her that he "should have stayed with the Gerson therapy." Michael Landon died in 1991.

Also relevant, and quite sad regarding his regrets: http://stopcancer.com/michael_landon.htm
What he reportedly ended up dying from is mustard gas poisoning, aka "chemotherapy".

I have a friend that was saved by the gerson protocols,
and I've done coffee enemas myself with excellent results

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

"Ad hominem arguments are the converse of appeals to authority, and may be used in response to such appeals."

And just to clarify further, the argument you are using is an "appeal to authority".

I should also point out that throwing around a black and white definition of "alternative" and "mainstream" is a major hang-up here.

There is a huge difference between suggesting someone take an herbal remedy for say their skin condition and making statements like "Vaccines cause autism".

That's not alternative medicine. That's dangerous quackery.

You conveniently left out the very first line of that wiki definition:

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.

I was not appealing to authority, just defending a source of valuable information from your ad hominum attacks as defined above. Your hostility is borderline bullying, and does nothing to move forward an actual exchange of ideas and information. As my mother always said, If you don't have anything constructive to add to a conversation, why say anything at all. Do you have anything to add that's not an attack?

It would be nice if we could actually discuss the merits of integrative medicine as a compliment to conventional western care, but you would need to open your mind and stop being hostile to the presentation of ideas that are easier to make fun of than to understand. Sadly you seem to be closed off to this avenue of thought; this reminds me of the drug warriors that still think mj has no medicinal value.

 

[Caligula]

I didn't conveniently forgot to include anything. I purposely didn't include that quote along with 98% of the rest of the wiki page due to it being completely irrelevant to this conversation. In my previous posts, I stated VERY relevant facts regarding the presenter (s) in question. If you look at the definition you quoted you will see that my facts need to be irrelevant in order for it to be considered a "fallacy" and thus related to what you grabbed from that wiki page.

I shouldn't need to have to point out that investigating the veracity and background of people/organizations touted as being "reputable" is the proper thing to do in any situation like this.

The fact of that matter is that you cited two very specific sources (NN and Mercola) and I simply pointed out how said sources may not be as unbiased and scientifically accurate as you portray them to be. It's not like I'm going online and fabricating negative information regarding your sources. I'm simply the messenger.

 

[EveryDayAmnesiac]

Dudes, I love ya, and I hate to say this, but even I have lost enough interest in this to suggest you move it to the ol' PM's.

You're both smart, you're both cool, and you both have different opinions.

Said with nothing but love, boys.

 

[SSVUN~YAH]

 

[grokit]

I didn't conveniently forgot to include anything. I purposely didn't include that quote along with 98% of the rest of the wiki page due to it being completely irrelevant to this conversation. In my previous posts, I stated VERY relevant facts regarding the presenter (s) in question. If you look at the definition you quoted you will see that my facts need to be irrelevant in order for it to be considered a "fallacy" and thus related to what you grabbed from that wiki page.

I shouldn't need to have to point out that investigating the veracity and background of people/organizations touted as being "reputable" is the proper thing to do in any situation like this.

The fact of that matter is that you cited two very specific sources (NN and Mercola) and I simply pointed out how said sources may not be as unbiased and scientifically accurate as you portray them to be. It's not like I'm going online and fabricating negative information regarding your sources. I'm simply the messenger.

Okay, so nothing constructive. Evidently you just need to have the last word?

Sorry guys... I just need to say that I am the one that introduced the term ad hominum to this exchange, so I have the most knowledge of how I was using it. It was the first line of that wiki page for a reason, and that reason is that it is the most widely-used definition for the term.

According to wikipedia anyways, what about the dictionary?
Here's the webster's definition of ad hominum, and it is even more to the point:

1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

But I agree: Let's stop here, as you seem to have no interest in debating anything but semantics. If anybody would actually like to discuss the merits of proactive integrative medicine, and how it can compliment (not compete with) the traditional reactive model of western care, pm me it is one of my favorite subjects

 

[EveryDayAmnesiac]

Frankly, what I want to see is @grokit and @Caligula working together to find something that will allow me to drink beer AND booze all day while still losing weight without exercising.

I don't really give a shit about the rest...

Just kidding, dudes...

 

[Stu]

Dudes, I love ya, and I hate to say this, but even I have lost enough interest in this to suggest you move it to the ol' PM's.

You're both smart, you're both cool, and you both have different opinions.

Said with nothing but love, boys.

EDA makes a great point here, guys. Let's move the "ad hominem" talk to the PM realm.

This is not a request, by the way...

 

[Seren]