The NEWS !!
- Thread starter lwien
- Start date
- Status
t-dub
Vapor Sloth
Ahh, the deleted posts/tweets from the rebel commander taking credit for shooting down a "transport plane" are pretty damning. They named the crash site and everything. Looks like when they found out it was a civilian aircraft the deletes began. Also, they have just uncovered deleted Twitter photos of the rebels having the Buk missiles.
grokit
well-worn member
They have no clue; now it's not a buk surface-to-air, it's a fighter jet:
Ukraine Says Russian Plane Shot Down Its Fighter Jet
By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
JULY 17, 2014
A Ukrainian Su-25 fighter plane similar to this one was shot down on Wednesday.
MOSCOW — The Ukrainian government said on Thursday that a Russian military plane had shot down a Ukrainian fighter jet in Ukrainian airspace the previous evening, a serious allegation of direct intervention by Russia’s armed forces.
If confirmed, the confrontation would represent the first open and direct involvement by Russia’s military in eastern Ukraine since the separatist rebellion began there in April.
There was no immediate confirmation or denial by Russian officials. Vladislav Brig, a spokesman for one of the separatist groups in eastern Ukraine, said in a telephone interview that rebel fighters had shot rockets at two or three Ukrainian fighter jets on Wednesday evening. Mr. Brig said the rockets were fired from the ground.
The Ukrainian government alleged a more dramatic midair confrontation, involving Russia.
Ukraine Says Russian Plane Shot Down Its Fighter Jet
By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
JULY 17, 2014
A Ukrainian Su-25 fighter plane similar to this one was shot down on Wednesday.
MOSCOW — The Ukrainian government said on Thursday that a Russian military plane had shot down a Ukrainian fighter jet in Ukrainian airspace the previous evening, a serious allegation of direct intervention by Russia’s armed forces.
If confirmed, the confrontation would represent the first open and direct involvement by Russia’s military in eastern Ukraine since the separatist rebellion began there in April.
There was no immediate confirmation or denial by Russian officials. Vladislav Brig, a spokesman for one of the separatist groups in eastern Ukraine, said in a telephone interview that rebel fighters had shot rockets at two or three Ukrainian fighter jets on Wednesday evening. Mr. Brig said the rockets were fired from the ground.
The Ukrainian government alleged a more dramatic midair confrontation, involving Russia.
grokit
well-worn member
Double post because holy shit, here's a new take:
Reports that Putin flew similar route as MH17, presidential airport says 'hasn't overflown Ukraine for long time'
Published time: July 17, 2014 18:13
Edited time: July 17, 2014 19:42
AFP Photo / Alexei Nikolsky
Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane was travelling almost the same route as Russia’s President Vladimir Putin’s jet shortly before the crash that killed 295, Interfax news agency reports citing sources.
LIVE UPDATES:Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine
“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft - 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.
"The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical", the source added.
At the same time, there have been reports contradicting Intefax’s report that was the first and the only media source to publish the news, saying that Presidential plane was not flying over Ukraine at the same time.
As a source told Gazeta.ru online news portal, Putin’s plane does take off from Vnukovo-3 [the terminal that accepts business jets], but the president does not fly over the conflict-gripped neighboring country.
“Putin has only one jet – Board One, he does not fly other planes. This plane always takes off from Vnukovo-3, but the presidential plane have not been flying over Ukraine for a while,” the source at Vnukovo-3 terminal said.
President Putin was on his way from Brazil, where he attended the BRICS summit, to Moscow.
Flight MH17 crashed in Ukraine on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpar, and was carrying 295 people.
The passenger Boeing-777 was expected to enter Russian airspace at 5:20pm local time, but never did, a Russian aviation industry source was cited by Reuters.
“The plane crashed 60km away from the border, the plane had an emergency beacon,” ITAR-TASS cited its source.
Reports that Putin flew similar route as MH17, presidential airport says 'hasn't overflown Ukraine for long time'
Published time: July 17, 2014 18:13
Edited time: July 17, 2014 19:42
AFP Photo / Alexei Nikolsky
Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane was travelling almost the same route as Russia’s President Vladimir Putin’s jet shortly before the crash that killed 295, Interfax news agency reports citing sources.
LIVE UPDATES:Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine
“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft - 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.
"The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical", the source added.
At the same time, there have been reports contradicting Intefax’s report that was the first and the only media source to publish the news, saying that Presidential plane was not flying over Ukraine at the same time.
As a source told Gazeta.ru online news portal, Putin’s plane does take off from Vnukovo-3 [the terminal that accepts business jets], but the president does not fly over the conflict-gripped neighboring country.
“Putin has only one jet – Board One, he does not fly other planes. This plane always takes off from Vnukovo-3, but the presidential plane have not been flying over Ukraine for a while,” the source at Vnukovo-3 terminal said.
President Putin was on his way from Brazil, where he attended the BRICS summit, to Moscow.
Flight MH17 crashed in Ukraine on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpar, and was carrying 295 people.
The passenger Boeing-777 was expected to enter Russian airspace at 5:20pm local time, but never did, a Russian aviation industry source was cited by Reuters.
“The plane crashed 60km away from the border, the plane had an emergency beacon,” ITAR-TASS cited its source.
lwien
Well-Known Member
The Russian spin machine at work. One of the things that they've had a LOT of experience in.
Oh God. Here we go again.
grokit
well-worn member
Could the isrealis have done this just to distract from palestine?
One thing's for sure, both (all three?) sides are furiously blaming the other.
More spin from the russian side:
Kiev deployed powerful surface-to-air missile systems to E. Ukraine ahead of the Malaysian plane crash – reports
Published time: July 17, 2014 18:35
A man stands next to the wreckage of the malaysian airliner carrying 295 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur after it crashed, in rebel-held east Ukraine, near the town of Shaktarsk, on July 17, 2014.
The Ukrainian military reportedly deployed a battery of Buk surface-to-air missile systems, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, to the Donetsk region the day before the Malaysian passenger plane crashed in the area.
Itar-Tass and Interfax news agencies are citing a source familiar with the issue, who said that another battery of Buk systems is currently being prepared for shipment to Donetsk region from the Ukrainian city of Kharkov.
The Donetsk region remains the scene of heavy fighting between government troops and the forces of the opposition, which refused to recognize the regime change in Kiev and demand federalization.
A Malaysian Airlines aircraft en route from Amsterdam to Malaysia crashed in Eastern Ukraine – not far from the Russian border – on Thursday.
There were reportedly 280 people and 15 crew members on board the Boeing-777 plane, who reportedly all died in the crash.
There were unconfirmed reports the Malaysian plane was travelling at an altitude of over 10,000 meters when it was allegedly hit by a missile.
There’s no way that the self-defense forces in Donetsk Region are in possession of such complex weaponry, he stressed.
Only S-300 and Buk surface-to-air missile systems are capable of hitting targets at such altitude, the source said.
Buk (Blume) is a family of self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the former USSR and Russia to engage targets at an altitude of up to 30 kilometers.
Chances are high that the Malaysian plane was really downed by the Ukrainian anti-aircraft defense, Yury Karash, pilot and aviation expert, told RT.
“A Boeing-777 is an extremely reliable piece of machinery. Modern planes don’t just crash with no reason,” he said. “Let us recall how a Ukrainian missile downed Russian TU-154 aircraft ten years ago. I can’t completely exclude the possibility the Boeing-777 was also hit by a missile.”
“I don’t know who could’ve shot it down. But I can allege that it was most likely the Ukrainian armed forces: simply because its military – anti-aircraft defense, in particular – are, unfortunately, unqualified. As judging by the overall state of the Ukrainian armed forces, insufficient attention has been paid to their training,” Karash added.
Reports in the Western media hurried to blame the self-defense forces of the People’s Republic of Donetsk for bringing the plane down.
The claims were denied by the representatives of the Donetsk People’s Republic, saying that it’s the Ukrainian military, which destroyed the aircraft.
“We simply don’t have such air defense systems. Our man-portable air defense systems have a firing range 3,000 - 4,000 meters. The Boeing was flying at a much higher altitude,” Sergey Kavtaradze, special representative for the prime minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, explained.
Kavtaradze also expressed condolences to the relatives of all of those who lost their lives in the tragedy.
One thing's for sure, both (all three?) sides are furiously blaming the other.
More spin from the russian side:
Kiev deployed powerful surface-to-air missile systems to E. Ukraine ahead of the Malaysian plane crash – reports
Published time: July 17, 2014 18:35
A man stands next to the wreckage of the malaysian airliner carrying 295 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur after it crashed, in rebel-held east Ukraine, near the town of Shaktarsk, on July 17, 2014.
The Ukrainian military reportedly deployed a battery of Buk surface-to-air missile systems, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, to the Donetsk region the day before the Malaysian passenger plane crashed in the area.
Itar-Tass and Interfax news agencies are citing a source familiar with the issue, who said that another battery of Buk systems is currently being prepared for shipment to Donetsk region from the Ukrainian city of Kharkov.
The Donetsk region remains the scene of heavy fighting between government troops and the forces of the opposition, which refused to recognize the regime change in Kiev and demand federalization.
A Malaysian Airlines aircraft en route from Amsterdam to Malaysia crashed in Eastern Ukraine – not far from the Russian border – on Thursday.
There were reportedly 280 people and 15 crew members on board the Boeing-777 plane, who reportedly all died in the crash.
There were unconfirmed reports the Malaysian plane was travelling at an altitude of over 10,000 meters when it was allegedly hit by a missile.
There’s no way that the self-defense forces in Donetsk Region are in possession of such complex weaponry, he stressed.
Only S-300 and Buk surface-to-air missile systems are capable of hitting targets at such altitude, the source said.
Buk (Blume) is a family of self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the former USSR and Russia to engage targets at an altitude of up to 30 kilometers.
Chances are high that the Malaysian plane was really downed by the Ukrainian anti-aircraft defense, Yury Karash, pilot and aviation expert, told RT.
“A Boeing-777 is an extremely reliable piece of machinery. Modern planes don’t just crash with no reason,” he said. “Let us recall how a Ukrainian missile downed Russian TU-154 aircraft ten years ago. I can’t completely exclude the possibility the Boeing-777 was also hit by a missile.”
“I don’t know who could’ve shot it down. But I can allege that it was most likely the Ukrainian armed forces: simply because its military – anti-aircraft defense, in particular – are, unfortunately, unqualified. As judging by the overall state of the Ukrainian armed forces, insufficient attention has been paid to their training,” Karash added.
Reports in the Western media hurried to blame the self-defense forces of the People’s Republic of Donetsk for bringing the plane down.
The claims were denied by the representatives of the Donetsk People’s Republic, saying that it’s the Ukrainian military, which destroyed the aircraft.
“We simply don’t have such air defense systems. Our man-portable air defense systems have a firing range 3,000 - 4,000 meters. The Boeing was flying at a much higher altitude,” Sergey Kavtaradze, special representative for the prime minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, explained.
Kavtaradze also expressed condolences to the relatives of all of those who lost their lives in the tragedy.
Caligula
Maximus
How short our collective memories are...
Remember when everyone was sure this was caused by a ground fired missile?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800
...i suppose speculating is always more fun than waiting for solid facts.
Remember when everyone was sure this was caused by a ground fired missile?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800
...i suppose speculating is always more fun than waiting for solid facts.
grokit
well-worn member
Link? My internet doesn't have that one!
Back to missiles again (I suppose it could have been a bomb as well):
"Reporting from the scene, Noah Sneider, an American freelance journalist, wrote on Twitter that witnesses said the plane had exploded in the air.
Locals say everything exploded in the air, fell in pieces, both bodies and plane itself. Ppl thought they were being bombed. #ukraine #mh17
— Noah Sneider (@NoahSneider) 17 Jul 14"
grokit
well-worn member
I don't have a problem, except that nobody has provided a link to this satellite confirmation yet, and I can't find any mention of it myself (2nd request). edit: Is this about the extent of it?
"...a U.S. official said American intelligence agencies had confirmed that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. The official, who was not authorized to speak on the record about an early intelligence assessment, said government analysts were scrambling to determine who fired the missile."
"...a U.S. official said American intelligence agencies had confirmed that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. The official, who was not authorized to speak on the record about an early intelligence assessment, said government analysts were scrambling to determine who fired the missile."
Caligula
Maximus
I have it on. They keep saying nothing is confirmed and they (the US Government/POTUS) can only speculate at this time. Is there some specific program that I should be watching that provides more accurate and up to date information?
Apparently CNN and the BBC are lacking here.
I'm not saying anyone is incorrect here... but didn't a few governments swear up and down that they found pings from that other Malaysia Air 777? You know... the ones they later said we're false readings?
Apparently CNN and the BBC are lacking here.
I'm not saying anyone is incorrect here... but didn't a few governments swear up and down that they found pings from that other Malaysia Air 777? You know... the ones they later said we're false readings?
lwien
Well-Known Member
lwien
Well-Known Member
- Status