The Convection Thread

[Dan Morrison]

@pretty-chill It sounds like the coffee filter paper is too thick. I just looked it up, and coffee filter paper seems to be around 100 gsm (grams per square meter), which is relatively thick compared to most washi. The washi I'm using is 15 gsm, pretty huge difference! This paper is very thin and transparent. You can get washi down into the single digit gsm range, which is basically like the thinnest paper you could imagine, haha.

The thinner the paper, the more surface area contact between your concentrate and the air.

I did try some thicker washi papers, and didn't get very good results, I found I had to crank temps up as well.

With the 15 gsm paper I'm using lower temps than what I typically use with flower. Extraction is so quick it's dangerous... very easy to consume too much if you're not careful!

I'm still trying to find time to get a photo tutorial up. Feeling hopeful for this method now!

 

[el sargantano]

@pretty-chill It sounds like the coffee filter paper is too thick. I just looked it up, and coffee filter paper seems to be around 100 gsm (grams per square meter), which is relatively thick compared to most washi. The washi I'm using is 15 gsm, pretty huge difference! This paper is very thin and transparent. You can get washi down into the single digit gsm range, which is basically like the thinnest paper you could imagine, haha.

The thinner the paper, the more surface area contact between your concentrate and the air.

For a quick & easy test, do you think regular smoking paper could do the trick? Or would it be pointless?
Your dedication is paramount!

 

[Dan Morrison]

@el sargantano , I think rolling paper is worth a shot. They are very close in thickness, but rolling papers seem more dense, more air tight, smaller fibers.

When you rip washi it leaves a very hairy edge showing all the long fibers. Ripping rolling papers shows no such fibers.

Could mean that washi is more absorbent... but hard to say. Might not even matter anyways.

 

[El Rawn Hubbard]

I haven't experimented with concentrates much because they are expensive and hard to find where I am, but I've tried a few things to use my reclaim when I've had dry spells.

Rolling paper worked for me but I think I had better results from more porous alternatives. I think I also tried an AeroPress filter, hemp fibre, tissue and toilet paper

 

[Chicken No Name]

When I get my footings better I'll definitely post a little pictorial on how I make this stuff.

Great thread that sort of faded out. Useful information nevertheless.
Are you still planning this Dan?

 

[Dan Morrison]

@Chicken No Name

Yes! Just not a lot of time in the last few months. But still very much interested.

I've also been interested in making disposable (one time use) washi paper capsules to hold either dry herb for on-the-go use.

 

[Vaporware]

@Dan Morrison ”either dry herb”? Was the “either” an accident or have you tried anything else that works with these paper capsules?

I’ll definitely be looking for good ways to use some hash and hopefully rosin in the Nomad and Toad too, and sandwiching in flower isn’t ideal...

 

[checkyourlibido]

Great thread that sort of faded out. Useful information nevertheless.
Are you still planning this Dan?

Don’t distract him!!!

jk

 

[Dan Morrison]

@Dan Morrison ”either dry herb”? Was the “either” an accident or have you tried anything else that works with these paper capsules?

I’ll definitely be looking for good ways to use some hash and hopefully rosin in the Nomad and Toad too, and sandwiching in flower isn’t ideal...

That's a typo. I had originally wanted to say that these washi capsules could be used with either dry herb or hash paper.. but after thinking about it for a second.. I realized that hash paper by itself can be scrunched up into convenient little ball shapes and stored that way. I don't think they would benefit from the capsule idea.

 

[Fesob_31]

What's next to talk about besides grind size? Chamber material? Stem cooling? Extraction temp?

I’m grateful for what I‘ve read this far.
Espresso is my other hobby and I’ve always found myself trying to use my knowledge in one field to achieve results in the other. There is no need to push the comparison too far, but there is some convenience for sure.
Maybe it’s time to talk about Extraction temp.
The best Espresso machines have great thermal stability and need long warm up since there is a lot of mass (metal and water) to heat up. But this is just the classic way to achieve the result. Decent Espresso machines heavily rely on sensors, real time monitoring and adjustments instead of mass and raw power.
We are talking about convection, we should deal with temperature control and PID.
Right, you can control temperature with your own technique and draw speed.
I’d like to reverse this. I want the temperature to be steady even when the draw speed is not. I want the vaporizer to follow my breath and provide power when needed. When this happens, i think you can fully extract without being worried about combustion.
We have already understood that small loads are easier to extract, but we want more hits… there is not such problem with espresso. Espresso extraction happens in one shot.
I’d be more concerned about what’s happening between the extractions. We should be worried not to waste material in between our convection heat waves.

 

[JBone65]

I’m grateful for what I‘ve read this far.
Espresso is my other hobby and I’ve always found myself trying to use my knowledge in one field to achieve results in the other. There is no need to push the comparison too far, but there is some convenience for sure.
Maybe it’s time to talk about Extraction temp.
The best Espresso machines have great thermal stability and need long warm up since there is a lot of mass (metal and water) to heat up. But this is just the classic way to achieve the result. Decent Espresso machines heavily rely on sensors, real time monitoring and adjustments instead of mass and raw power.
We are talking about convection, we should deal with temperature control and PID.
Right, you can control temperature with your own technique and draw speed.
I’d like to reverse this. I want the temperature to be steady even when the draw speed is not. I want the vaporizer to follow my breath and provide power when needed. When this happens, i think you can fully extract without being worried about combustion.
We have already understood that small loads are easier to extract, but we want more hits… there is not such problem with espresso. Espresso extraction happens in one shot.
I’d be more concerned about what’s happening between the extractions. We should be worried not to waste material in between our convection heat waves.

Totally agree. The grasshopper io portable convection device gets a bad wrap mostly because of Hopper Lab's poor customer service, plus it's difficult to keep clean and free flowing, but I've been using grasshoppers for more than 5 years. Can't recommend it but it's been amazing for me.

The temp ranges from 230- 430°f. It heats incoming air and it stops heating when you stop drawing thru it. I've really enjoyed temp-stepping, starting with the minimum and finishing the load on maximum temp. Getting 8-9 excellent hits per 0.2g load. Very efficient but the unique benefit I'm posting about is the intense terp hits at 230°.

I don't see any info on this technique in any FC thread or on YouTube or anywhere. I'm surprised because it's amazing. I'm guessing most vaporizers can't do it or lots of people would do it.

Apparently at 230° the temp is so low that you get exclusively the lightest terpenoid and flavonoids, probably minimal THC. It's like a normal hit but overloaded with intense flavor.

The high terp concentration doesn't make much vapor, it's mostly invisible, but it's the sweetest hit possible IMO. It will take your breath away to some degree. Anyone who ever drew breath thru an unlit joint knows the flavor I'm talking about. It's probably 10x as intense at 230°.

To make it even better, have been mixing diverse strains to give a wide terp spectrum. Anyway, it's addictive. I might need intervention....

 

[Shit Snacks]

Totally agree. The grasshopper io portable convection device gets a bad wrap mostly because of Hopper Lab's poor customer service, plus it's difficult to keep clean and free flowing, but I've been using grasshoppers for more than 5 years. Can't recommend it but it's been amazing for me.

The temp ranges from 230- 430°f. It only heats incoming air and it stops heating when you stop drawing thru it. I've really enjoyed temp-stepping, starting with the minimum and finishing the load on maximum temp. Getting 8-9 excellent hits per 0.2g load. Very efficient but the reason I'm posting is the unique benefit I'm posting about is the intense terp hits at 230°.

I don't see any info on this technique in any FC thread or on YouTube or anywhere. I'm surprised because it's amazing. I'm guessing most vaporizers can't do it or loud of people would do it.

Apparently at 230° the temp is so low that you get exclusively the lightest terpenoid and flavonoids, probably minimal THC. It's like a normal hit but overloaded with intense flavor.

The high terp concentration doesn't make much vapor, it's mostly invisible, but it's the sweetest hit possible IMO. It will take your breath away to some degree. Anyone who ever drew breath thru an unlit joint knows the flavor I'm talking about. It's probably 10x as intense at 230°.

To make it even better, have been mixing diverse strains to give an wide terp spectrum. Anyway, it's addictive. I might need intervention....

Temperature settings are all relative, but Firefly2+ and Tinymight can also provide temp controlled pure convection hits this low btw (and TM is my favorite of the 3)

 

[JBone65]

I wanted to add a couple of comments concerning my post above. I'm finding that some strains look good but don't produce much flavor at 230°. I assume there are multiple factors causing this, everything from genetics, grow techniques, storage techniques, etc. IMO most commercial weed is grown for maximum yield and not specifically for maximum terpenoid content, and this usually means warm conditions in the range of 75-80°f. From personal experience, keeping the grow room temp lower (68-70°) during flowering, and then using cold storage for the finished product, prevents a lot of the lighter aromatic terp compounds from absorbing heat and flying away. Not every strain will produce a good terp hit, you mainly want fresh weed that smells great. Different smells mean different terpene profiles, which can be mixed to provide a super-entourage effect.

I will get a first hit at 230°, then increase the temp 30-40° for each successive hit. The gradually increasing temperature seems to release more and more compounds, making every hit somewhat special and relatively equal. I usually experiment with each new mixture to find the most effective temp steps.

Has anyone else done this, or something similar?

 

[Shit Snacks]

I will get a first hit at 230°, then increase the temp 30-40° for each successive hit. The gradually increasing temperature seems to release more and more compounds, making every hit somewhat special and relatively equal. I usually experiment with each new mixture to find the most effective temp steps.

Has anyone else done this, or something similar?

Yes, temp stepping, it is what I do most often, part of why I love the TM, as it is even easier and more effective to do so using it instead of my IO or FF, starting as low as possible, turning the dial slowly higher tiny bit by tiny bit for each hit, hard to resist!

 

[GoldenBud]

From personal experience, keeping the grow room temp lower (68-70°) during flowering, and then using cold

AFAIK most growers will tell you that HPS light will bring more terpey flowers over LED but some of the collars can get too much light or so so that's why people prefer LED

I had buds from HPS then same pheno with LED the HPS smelled way stronger

All depends IMHO how good was the guy who selected the pheno and ofc the grower but couldn't commercial weed in Amsterdam smells fire for example

Dunno how it is in USA but about to find out soon I hope

 

[florduh]

Temperature settings are all relative, but Firefly2+ and Tinymight can also provide temp controlled pure convection hits this low btw (and TM is my favorite of the 3)

I was gonna say, if the TM temp chart is remotely accurate, I almost never go above 190-200(6 or 7 on the TM). Temp stepping up to that level leaves virtually no gettable vapor if I turn it up past 200.

 

[Shit Snacks]

I was gonna say, if the TM temp chart is remotely accurate, I almost never go above 190-200(6 or 7 on the TM). Temp stepping up to that level leaves virtually no gettable vapor if I turn it up past 200.

Yeah I start as low as possible and work my way up to just below six typically to finish

 

[GoldenBud]

I was gonna say, if the TM temp chart is remotely accurate, I almost never go above 190-200(6 or 7 on the TM). Temp stepping up to that level leaves virtually no gettable vapor if I turn it up past 200.

slow/fast draw? it matters too..

 

[JBone65]

I was gonna say, if the TM temp chart is remotely accurate, I almost never go above 190-200(6 or 7 on the TM). Temp stepping up to that level leaves virtually no gettable vapor if I turn it up past 200.

Are you talking about degrees centigrade?

 

[Shit Snacks]

Are you talking about degrees centigrade?

Yes of course given the context

 

[florduh]

slow/fast draw? it matters too..

The thing I like about the TM is I never really "think" or use techniques. But you're right, I think I intuitively slow the draw at super low temps so it's probably a little hotter than what the manual says.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

... We are talking about convection, we should deal with temperature control and PID.
Right, you can control temperature with your own technique and draw speed.
I’d like to reverse this. I want the temperature to be steady even when the draw speed is not. I want the vaporizer to follow my breath and provide power when needed. When this happens, i think you can fully extract without being worried about combustion.
...
I’d be more concerned about what’s happening between the extractions. We should be worried not to waste material in between our convection heat waves.

i agree with the need for temp control and PID - has been my passion since 2009.

what i have found is that if the battery is sufficiently high current - i.e. LiFePO4 can deliver 70 amps - it is not possible to drop the temperature regardless of the inhale speed - the PID is rock solid. before PID my vape would drop 50 degs with a hit.

However, i think what happens with my heater geometry is turbulent vs laminar air flow ... thinking about your comment, i realized why a slow draw delivers more vapor - the air flow is flat against the heater, while a fast inhale will be more turbulent, so the air does not get a chance to fully get up against the heater and absorb the heat, before passing into the vial with the herb. so, faster hit is thinner vapor vs a slow hit is thicker vapor.

and, the session is only about 3 minutes, so minimal waste of material, despite being in the middle of the heater - the oven tube, between draws.

 

[Fesob_31]

slow/fast draw? it matters too..

Great point but which way?
Slow draw because of the limited extraction capabilities of the sistem / fast draw to avoid combustion?
The more I think about this, the more i wanna be able to profile the extraction with temperature and flow as completely independent variables.
Maybe I’m not looking for complete convection extraction but for extra fine tuned nuances… trichomes teleportation… more unconverted thca

 

[GoldenBud]

slow draw will cause less air flowing inside the heater..the heat stays in the system but the cold fluid is missing...

actually, if you inhale slow enough.. it will become conduction at some point?!

 

[Fesob_31]

However, i think what happens with my heater geometry is turbulent vs laminar air flow ...

How much space for improvement with better heater geometry?
I’m using a Dreamwood Glow 18 in TC with PID enabled in Arctic Fox with a Dreamwood Glow 18. Power ramps ap from 5-8W to 25-38W when I draw. My guesstimated range is something like 180-210 C but I don’t have a thermocouple so, judging by taste/effects, fwiw.