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The Convection Thread

arb

Semi shaved ape
Cool, tell me more! Doesn't a lot get wasted sticking to the grinder surfaces? When did you decide to switch to a powder grind for convection vaping?
Two quick pulses is a course grind.
Four quick pulses is a fine grind exactly the same as a s&b grinder produces.
Some gets stuck on the machine but only so much and it scrapes off if it matters.
I like a fine grind about 5mm deep scoop loaded in a half inch bowl.
One big hit stir another one for cleanup and done.
 

Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
@pretty-chill, thanks for the rundown!

That's pretty much exactly how I used to prep my fine grinds, except I skipped the pressing stage and went straight to the mesh screen. For those curious, this grinder tech is more commonly called a "card grinder", of which there are various hole sizes available.

And you've confirmed the low temp requirement that I found as well. Same page there!

I think the hot spotting with a fine grind is simply caused by using the same settings/techniques used for coarser grinds and then overheating as a result.

I find that coarse grinds are more tolerant to high heat and fast inhale speeds.

Once dialed in for a lower temp, super fine grinds do work wonderfully, and I still go back to them from time to time!

IME, coarse grinds produce a brighter cleaner taste... and I get more of those lemony, minty, gassy, etc.. terpenes coming forward.

Fine grinds mix in more of a deeper, earthy, creamy, taste.

On average, I aim to extract fine grinds slightly slower than coarse grinds.

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I go back and forth between preferring fine or coarse. I guess I have to settle for liking both, haha.

I think the key with any grind is to avoid wildly different particle sizes and dense balls of material.

Back to what @invertedisdead said about modern flower being super potent. A super easy way to drastically increase vape performance is to simply start with more trichome rich material. Like any other form of consumption (coffee, tea, food), the easiest way to increase the quality of the end result is to increase the quality of the raw ingredients.

A fine grind of high quality flower could be just as trichome rich as keif from lower quality flower. And for me, more than potent enough.

_________

What's next to talk about besides grind size? Chamber material? Stem cooling? Extraction temp?
 

invertedisdead

Weapons of VAS Destruction
Like any other form of consumption (coffee, tea, food), the easiest way to increase the quality of the end result is to increase the quality of the raw ingredients.

More killer, less filler!! :wave:


I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I go back and forth between preferring fine or coarse. I guess I have to settle for liking both, haha.

I think the key with any grind is to avoid wildly different particle sizes and dense balls of material.


The buds density may be a consideration for grind preference - fluffy sativa leaners in a course grind may work better than ultra dense "Humboldt Hardrock" as I call them with much unexposed internals at the same grind. Perhaps denser nugs could benefit from a finer grind for more exposed surface area. Playing on how sativas can take up twice as much volume in a jar due to vast density variances.

What's next to talk about besides grind size? Chamber material? Stem cooling? Extraction temp?

Whatever it is, sign me up!

This is like the best thread on FC right now. This is the old school FC vibe, getting down to the nitty gritty and sharing observations.

It's seriously wonderful to see some modern vapor discussions and not just "what battery should I get for my log vape" :rofl:
 

Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
The buds density may be a consideration for grind preference - fluffy sativa leaners in a course grind may work better than ultra dense "Humboldt Hardrock" as I call them with much unexposed internals at the same grind. Perhaps denser nugs could benefit from a finer grind for more exposed surface area.

Man, such a great point. Fluffy flower seems to manually break apart effortlessly into perfect coarse calyx/leaf with trichomes intact.

But those dense flowers... don't even bother, you have to do so much prying and cutting... not worth it.

I toootally think that basing your grind size on flower density is a good practice. This also might be good flower buying advice. If you want brighter flavors, you may want a coarse grind, and if you want a coarse grind, you'll need fluffy buds.

It's seriously wonderful to see some modern vapor discussions and not just "what battery should I get for my log vape" :rofl:

I just love nerding out!
 
@invertedisdead totally agree on the full-spectrum thing, there are definitely non-vaporizable compounds in the mix. This is why I always orally consume the fresh AVB. The effects are subtle but it does seem to extend the overall effects a little bit, and I get a more "full-spectrum" effect. With this in mind, I usually don't take my AVB very far either since I know it'll get consumed anyways.

@EnemyLemon yes, some of those compounds also likely degrade before vaporization. However, I have a bit of a personal theory that convection vaporizers allow you to inhale some of the acidic cannabinoids, especially with quick extraction speeds and slightly lower temperatures. I believe those temperatures don't instantly decarboxylate the acidic cannabinoids and thus in the first vapor stream we may actually be inhaling a decent amount of acidic cannabinoids. Another thing that is not often talked about is that some of the acidic cannabinoids can be carboxylated at different positions. For example, acidic THC exists as THCA-A and THCA-B. THCA-B is a lot more stable and resistant to decarboxylation, so we are probably inhaling some of this. This is great because THCA has some very interesting effects, including various effects such as activating the vanilloid receptors TRP1A and TRPV2 while also inhibiting TRPV1. THCA also appears to inhibit every single enzyme system that plays a role in endocannabinoid degradation such as FAAH and DGLα and it also inhibits anandamide transport. Perhaps the really fine grind + low temperature is allowing me to inhale some more acidic cannabinoids, which is maybe why the effects feel a little more therapeutic. Also, the grind is definitely nowhere near as fine as that. It actually doesn't come through the dynavap CCD at all on the woodscents.

IME, coarse grinds produce a brighter cleaner taste... and I get more of those lemony, minty, gassy, etc.. terpenes coming forward.

Fine grinds mix in more of a deeper, earthy, creamy, taste.

Totally agreed here! I notice the same with coffee, incomplete/selective extraction leads to bright clean flavours. More complete extraction mixes in more mouthfeel, sugars and body that would normally be left behind in the coffee. This becomes a little problematic sometimes, for example a lot of natural Ethiopian coffees have strawberry or blueberry flavours. When you selectively extract the top note/bright flavours you get this very impressive strawberry ester like taste. However, without some body and sweetness backing it up, it doesn't taste like real strawberry and it tastes a little bit thin and artificial. With more complete extractions, these strawberry flavours are not as immediately noticeable and don't jump out of the cup, but over time the more "complete" picture tends to be a little more complex and interesting, although not as immediately impressive. The same thing I'm finding here now a little bit between fine and coarse flower, so this is also where personal taste comes in and I think this ties in with coffee again perfectly. People get pretty nerdy about coffee and try to use differently designed pour-over devices (flat bottom vs conical) to try and selectively tease out different flavours to suit their tastes.

I toootally think that basing your grind size on flower density is a good practice. This also might be good flower buying advice. If you want brighter flavors, you may want a coarse grind, and if you want a coarse grind, you'll need fluffy buds.

This ties back into coffee too, whenever I get a new bag of beans, I have to recalibrate my grinder. No two beans are alike, and if I grind the same bean at the same setting I'll get very different flow properties. This difference is especially noticeable between cultivars, for example, Ethiopian landrace cultivars tend to be small and dense, and need a coarser grind, whereas Columbian cultivars are often a little less dense and appear to need a much finer grind size. I would expect this same exact concept to apply to flower. Furthermore, we may also want to play with different parameters like heat between different strains and tamping vs no tamping. A one size fits all solution doesn't exist for coffee and I wouldn't expect it to for cannabis and hemp either.
 

EnemyLemon

Well-Known Member
Another thing that is not often talked about is that some of the acidic cannabinoids can be carboxylated at different positions. For example, acidic THC exists as THCA-A and THCA-B. THCA-B is a lot more stable and resistant to decarboxylation, so we are probably inhaling some of this. This is great because THCA has some very interesting effects, including various effects such as activating the vanilloid receptors TRP1A and TRPV2 while also inhibiting TRPV1. THCA also appears to inhibit every single enzyme system that plays a role in endocannabinoid degradation such as FAAH and DGLα and it also inhibits anandamide transport.
Thanks for the knowledge bombs! I bookmarked your post.
 

El Rawn Hubbard

Active Member
Two quick pulses is a course grind.
Four quick pulses is a fine grind exactly the same as a s&b grinder produces.
Some gets stuck on the machine but only so much and it scrapes off if it matters.

I've had similar results with a cheap coffee/spice grinder. As long as it's not too sticky it's great for quickly hacking up a few nugs 🪓

I also like a fine grind (from scissors and cup) for my Lotus. With sharp scissors it doesn't take long to get a small and even texture without completely bruising everything.

Man, such a great point. Fluffy flower seems to manually break apart effortlessly into perfect coarse calyx/leaf with trichomes intact.

But those dense flowers... don't even bother, you have to do so much prying and cutting... not worth it.

I toootally think that basing your grind size on flower density is a good practice. This also might be good flower buying advice. If you want brighter flavors, you may want a coarse grind, and if you want a coarse grind, you'll need fluffy buds.



I just love nerding out!

This ties back into coffee too, whenever I get a new bag of beans, I have to recalibrate my grinder. No two beans are alike, and if I grind the same bean at the same setting I'll get very different flow properties.

I feel that I can relate to these trains of thought as if they were my own!
 

howie105

Well-Known Member
Cool, tell me more! Doesn't a lot get wasted sticking to the grinder surfaces? When did you decide to switch to a powder grind for convection vaping?

my wife is going to wonder if I overmedicated when the rolling pin and coffee grinder start smelling like my stash.

A comment on the "sticking" issue, it's only as important as one wishes to believe. Some folks find a few hundreds of a gram left in a grinder as significant and others do not. Perhaps it's as important to focus on how well a particular type of grind and grinder perform with a particular vape and the results. I use some really fine grinds from an electric coffee mill, medium grinds from manual grinders even to whole nugs and really never worry about the stickies till it's time to clean. I think it's to each their own.
 
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Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
Inspired by @pretty-chill, I went back to trying out fine grinds for a bit.... and pretty much confirmed my preference for coarse grinding.

For whatever reason, the coarse grinds are just feeling smoother in the throat, giving better (to my tastes) flavor, and producing denser vapor.

I thought I would take some photos to show exactly what I'm referring to when I talk about a coarse grind.

Scale is hard to judge, but just know that I try to keep the leafy particles as large as I can, while still maintaining "potato chip" lookin' bits. When I say potato chip, I mean... objects that are made up of a single flat leafy shape. The leaf can be curled and twisted, doesn't matter, so long as it's made up of a flat leaf.

The way a leaf/bract/calyx grows, it usually only has trichomes on one side. So don't worry about uncurling flat "chips" to expose both sides equally, if only the outer surface is covered with trichomes.

I do not care about particle size uniformity. I only care about flat shapes.

Flat shapes will all have similar density/mass. I think this could be one reason why flat shapes tend to evenly heat.

Take a look at all these pretty flat shapes! mmmm.

001.jpg



Pictured here below is an example of what I absolutely avoid. Dreaded ball shapes. The leafy bit on the left is a curled flat object (hard to tell from the photo, but it is!). I could uncurl this shape and it would lie flat.

The leafy bit on the right, is a tight, dense, ball. This ball is made up of calyx/bract that are tightly overlapping each other. This ball shape will vaporize slower because it requires more heat to penetrate the higher mass/density.

If you have a chamber load filled with flats and balls, you'll overheat your flats before fully extracting your balls (DON'T EVEN GO THERE).

002.jpg


Here is the perfect chamber load. Note how loose and fluffy it is. By keeping the trichome hairs and flat shapes intact, you'll be able to pack very fluffy. Look at all those air pockets! That's exactly what we want. ZERO tamping here.

003.jpg


A look at the top. Notice the air pockets around the outside, between the glass walls and the flower. You can almost see right through this load of flower, that's perfect!

See how all those trichome hairs are acting as bumpers, keeping each flat leaf from touching each other too tightly. This creates all sorts of air flow.

004.jpg


___

Very interested in y'alls grinds and how they compare and contrast.
 
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Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
@LesPlenty , In my experience, vapor density is consistently higher with a coarse grind.

At first glance, I'd agree with you in the concept of more surface area = faster extraction = denser vapor.... but i think it's more complex than that.

What I think matters more, is available surface area, the surface that is making direct contact with the heated air.

Since coarse grinds allow for a fluffy pack, which in-turn allows for more even airflow, you actually see greater direct contact between the surface of the leaf and the heated air, compared to a fine grind.

Surface area is only one variable among the many that determine the actual extraction speed.

Also keep in mind that the trichomes we want to extract are on the outside surface of the leaf, so grinding finer only exposes inner plant material.

I'm not sure why finer grinds generally feel harsher to me... but It's not always... and could have just been a fluke over the last number of sessions where I was paying attention to such things. More research needed! :spliff:
 
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