the addiction debate

[rabblerouser]

I'll pile on and add, without citations. that CBG has been shown to be good for anxiety. And CBC for depression, at least in mouse models. I think I do especailly well with high CBG strains, but am intrigued by CBC as well. Admittedly the CBC probably needs a lot more study

Edit:

The method of action for CBG and anxiety is supposed to be in part that it inhibits uptake of GABA

 

[rabblerouser]

the kratom was also quite helpful for my anxiety and mood, but that one definitely is physically addictive, although I didn't find it pyschologically addicting. I couldn't figure out why I felt so restless legs-y and had such trouble sleeping. I didn't actually crave the stuff by any means, but I was sick without it, once I got use to taking it regularly. that was the main reason I stopped it.

I found the kratom to be very medicinal, but to actually have some minor negative side effects, unlike the medical doobie, which has basically none, for me.

 

[darbarikanada]

you would have a relative easy time putting cannabis down as compared to some hard street drugs or even tobacco for that matter is much harder to quit for most

no doubt. but I was surprised to read lately (sorry but I don't remember where, but it was someplace I'd consider reputable, like the NYT or BBC) that cannabis is considered more addictive than alcohol (and yes: less addictive than tobacco). who knew? of course it'd be better if I knew the methodology - maybe it was a poorly-designed study, but if true that's pretty much a break from the 'accepted wisdom' (not counting rabid cannabis-haters').

 

[herbivore21]

no doubt. but I was surprised to read lately (sorry but I don't remember where, but it was someplace I'd consider reputable, like the NYT or BBC) that cannabis is considered more addictive than alcohol (and yes: less addictive than tobacco). who knew? of course it'd be better if I knew the methodology - maybe it was a poorly-designed study, but if true that's pretty much a break from the 'accepted wisdom' (not counting rabid cannabis-haters').

Alcohol is physically addictive, with withdrawals that can literally kill you if you try to quit without weening or pharmacological intervention - unless cannabis has some side effects that I haven't heard of, the claim you have stated here is inaccurate. Obviously, this is the author of the articles' mistake, not yours - newspapers and journalists are generally terrible at reporting about science!

 

[Baron23]

It is important to read the literal letter of the diagnostic criteria above to understand that one could be a heavy daily user of cannabis and not meet the criteria for something medically diagnosable relating to their cannabis use. The diagnostic criteria each require a manifestation that causes clinically significant distress to the user.

There is a slight equivocation in the above post between depression and cannabis dependency. Are we discussing any actual case of dependency in this thread? After all, it is doubtful that you meet the criteria I shared above for a cannabis disorder. You simply do not use cannabis often enough to be likely to have a diagnosable problem or 'dependency'.

CBD is known to have activity on the serotonin receptors (5-ht1a if you're curious) as well as the mechanism I described in my last post - not just the cb2 receptor! It has a lot of promise for treating depression and a variety of bodily, psychiatric and neurological conditions. THC has been identified to have antidepressant like activity in preclinical studies. The current regulatory environment federally in the US is not accommodating for scholarly researchers to go beyond preclinical studies at this point for THC so this is the best information we will get from this portion of the worlds medical scientists until things change.

The claims I make about cannabis being known to have antidepressant effects are all from scientific journal articles, I encourage you to check out www.scholar.google.com and search cannabis and depression to find some of this literature. Unfortunately, you won't be able to read the entire studies unless you have a subscription to scholarly journals (which means either you're a college student, academic/researcher or you spent a hell of a lot of money on it yourself!). Still, the abstracts (summaries of the aims, methods and findings of the study) are almost always visible for free so you'll be able to get a reasonable idea of what has been found so far. Do not use regular google when you are asking scientific questions! That is what Google Scholar is for

I'm not going to engage with the anecdotes above nor the rest of this discussion, since it seems you guys want to have an anecdotal conversation and I am interested in talking about the science - this is nothing negative towards you guys of course, the description of the thread confused me and it appears actually not to be a discussion for me

Man I do want to echo what @HighSeasSailor said. You are continually both asserting and denying your own depression in this thread. You were prescribed anti-depressants which means a doctor had to think you had clinically significant depressive symptoms at least in the past. That is as clear an identification of depression as you're going to find (short of diagnosing the underlying causal condition that causes the depressive symptoms - depression is not a condition, but a symptom). Depression is a serious symptom and you speak in ways that appear to negate this symptom's validity and speak of treating depression in terms of 'crutches' which is pejorative language - likely to be offensive to a good section of the people out there with depressive illness.

Please consider the following parting message:

Medicating a genuine illness symptom like depression is not an 'escape' from life. It is quite the opposite to an 'escape'. It allows many like myself to live our lives fruitfully rather than facing constant disability, debilitation and distress. I am a hard working scientist who would not be working today if it were not for medical cannabis to treat depression and a variety of other symptoms. Your claims suggesting that cannabis is not an anti-depressant, rather an 'escape' contradicts the present scholarly literature (which is rapidly growing around the world and with legal changes hopefully will happen more in the US) but they also deny the realities of many people here who have had success using cannabis to treat depression.

Once again, @herbivore21 my friend, you have nailed it in one with a very erudite and intelligible post. Thank you.

Wrt to alcohol...ethyl alcohol is only physically addictive to some people....what those in AA often refer to as "real" alcoholics. Although the exact genetic mechanism has not yet been identified (to my knowledge at least), alcoholism clearly has a strong genetic component that can easily be seen in family alcoholism and variability in alcoholism rates in different races.

I, for one, am not one of the board members who think cannabis is a panacea for all ills. I have, however, not found it addictive (and I have a YUGE predilection to addiction) and I have found that regular use of moderate amounts does indeed help with my mood disorders (and generally just makes me a nicer person LOL).

I personally agree that if you suffer true clinical depression, then you need to seek medical help and absolutely do your best to find an effective antidepressant for YOUR brain. It is sad but true that "depression" has entered the common lexicon as a synonym for being blue or down. My experience with acute clinical depression (and I haven't had a full blow bout in about 8-10 years) is that its a real killer and must be taken seriously and not confused with other none clinical or acute conditions. When I found myself curled up on the stair landing in broad daylight in a fetal ball bawling my eyes out and have no idea why, I discovered a whole new willingness to cooperate with my shrink. I don't take them anymore but the reasons are quite specific to me and if I ever found myself in that situation again I would go back to the shrink in a NY second. Life is too short to spend it in mental anguish. IMO

Ok, peace and well being to all.

 

[herbivore21]

Once again, @herbivore21 my friend, you have nailed it in one with a very erudite and intelligible post. Thank you.

Wrt to alcohol...ethyl alcohol is only physically addictive to some people....what those in AA often refer to as "real" alcoholics. Although the exact genetic mechanism has not yet been identified (to my knowledge at least), alcoholism clearly has a strong genetic component that can easily be seen in family alcoholism and variability alcoholism rates in various races.

I, for one, am not one of the board members who think cannabis is a panacea for all ills. I have, however, not found it addictive (and I have a YUGE predilection to addiction) and I have found that regular use of moderate amounts does indeed help with my mood disorders (and generally just makes me a nicer person LOL).

I personally agree that if you suffer true clinical depression, then you seek medical help and absolutely do your best to find an effective antidepressant for YOUR brain. It is sad but true that "depression" has entered the common lexicon as a synonym for being blue or down. My experience with acute clinical depression (and I haven't had a full blow bout in about 8-10 years) is that its a real killer and must be taken seriously and not confused with other none clinical or acute conditions. When I found myself curled up on the stair landing in broad daylight in a fetal ball bawling my eyes out and have no idea why, I discovered a whole new willingness to cooperate with my shrink. I don't take them anymore but the reasons are quite specific to me and if I ever found myself in that situation again I would go back to the shrink in a NY second. Life is too short to spend it in mental anguish. IMO

Ok, peace and well being to all.

Thanks for the kind words my friend, you are a gentleman! I truly am sorry to hear that you experienced a major acute depressive episode such as you describe there man, it really is hard to cope with things like that. I am glad to hear you have not had problems with this level of mood symptoms in a long time though!

I agree with you on most of what you've said brother, however what I mean by 'physically addictive' is that heavy, daily alcohol consumption over long enough of a period leads to potentially deadly withdrawals when one ceases use. This is most literally physical addiction; if you try to quit, you get compelling physical symptoms that convince you not to!

You are right though, there are genetic risk factors to alcoholism and other addictions. There are also strong environmental components in the likelihood that an individual will go on to use or be addicted to a substance that come from the home/family. Witnessing parental use of a substance (even in the absence of biological/genetic risk factors) is one such environmental predictor that the child will go on to use the substance themselves.

I fully agree that cannabis is probably NOT a cure-all and we will probably find varying results emerging from the scholarly research moving forward for the various ills that cannabis is suggested to have efficacy in treating. However at the same time, there are a number of various conditions and symptoms where we can see compelling reasons to believe that cannabis will be an effective, safe and better tolerated treatment than pharmaceutical medications.

One example is the efficacy of CBD in treating psychosis, it is as effective as the atypical antipsychotics it was compared to and much better tolerated with far fewer and less distressing side effects than the alternatives. This finding that cannabis is actually able to be used as an effective anti-psychotic flies in the face of recent historical ideas surrounding cannabis!

Another example is in the treatment of depression as mentioned above.

Let's also not forget CBD in treating anxiety. Most of the stuff prescribed for serious anxiety are benzodiazepenes. This shit is also addictive in a way similar to alcohol. Benzodiazepenes are some of the most addictive and heavily abused drugs (outside of a medical context) in many Western countries. These, in addition to others I've mentioned here and more are each compelling arguments for the use of cannabis/cannabis derivatives in mental health.

You are right to mention the term 'depression' has a different folk usage to the clinical use which is why I've been clear to only refer to the latter in this thread. It became clear too that as I mention above, the OP has had what a doctor has considered clinical depression at least in the past. Man so many equivocations, ambiguities and conflations in this thread makes it take so long to pick apart and engage with what is going on doesn't it lol

 

[ZC]

It's about as addictive as the internet or TV or exercising or anything else you may enjoy. Not physically addictive like tobacco or alcohol -but the human mind can become addicted to anything.

That is to say, its not an addictive substance, but that doesn't mean people can't be addicted to it.


As for the cure-all theory, that's bullshit imo. It is clearly helpful for a lot of ailments for a lot of people, but likewise many people have very negative reactions to it and some people don't feel the benefits many of us praise. The research isn't there yet, but personally I think it's a very individual thing. Every-bodies body is different and while for many cannabis can be helpful, it's definitely not the solution for everyone or everything.

 

[Baron23]

I agree with you on most of what you've said brother, however what I mean by 'physically addictive' is that heavy, daily alcohol consumption over long enough of a period leads to potentially deadly withdrawals when one ceases use. This is most literally physical addiction; if you try to quit, you get compelling physical symptoms that convince you not to!

Hi @herbivore21 - another great post, thank you. But we do disagree with the above. I understand how dangerous acute alcoholic addiction withdrawal can be. But my point is, that to the best of my knowledge, you can't make a physical alcoholic out of a non-alcoholic. Yes, there are all kinds of levels of dependency and abuse and many of these levels are indeed environmental or situational.

However, as far as I know you cannot take a non-alcoholic and make them so on the physical level. If you give a true alcoholic lots of booze for an extended period of time, then you will see withdrawal (the DTs used to be the old term for it). If you take a non-alcoholic and feed them lots of booze over an extended period of time, if you don't kill them with acute alcohol poisoning all you will end up with is a person very sick from drinking too damn much. Alcoholism is really a bit of an outlier. Given enough heroin and time I can get pretty much anybody physically strung out badly on it (or Valium as you have mentioned the benzos who are all very dangerous drugs in my experience). But I can't do the same with alcohol. Its physically addictive to a small percentage of people and that percentage varies widely across races.

If I'm wrong, I am more than willing to be schooled.

Wow, going a bit off topic...yeah?

P.S. - thanks for the sympathetic words but please don't read too much into my past bouts of clinical depression. I don't talk about it too much because I don't want to make it out to be more that it is. Widely spread out episodes and not one in a very long time. I did post about it to try to highlight to the OP the differences in use of the word 'depression' and to clear a little brush about how it is definitely a severer medical condition that needs medical attention. Too many damn lives are lost to this disease. Take care :-)

 

[herbivore21]

Hi @herbivore21 - another great post, thank you. But we do disagree with the above. I understand how dangerous acute alcoholic addiction withdrawal can be. But my point is, that to the best of my knowledge, you can't make a physical alcoholic out of a non-alcoholic. Yes, there are all kinds of levels of dependency and abuse and many of these levels are indeed environmental or situational.

However, as far as I know you cannot take a non-alcoholic and make them so on the physical level. If you give a true alcoholic lots of booze for an extended period of time, then you will see withdrawal (the DTs used to be the old term for it). If you take a non-alcoholic and feed them lots of booze over an extended period of time, if you don't kill them with acute alcohol poisoning all you will end up with is a person very sick from drinking too damn much. Alcoholism is really a bit of an outlier. Given enough heroin and time I can get pretty much anybody physically strung out badly on it (or Valium as you have mentioned the benzos who are all very dangerous drugs in my experience). But I can't do the same with alcohol. Its physically addictive to a small percentage of people and that percentage varies widely across races.

If I'm wrong, I am more than willing to be schooled.

Wow, going a bit off topic...yeah?

One thing I will say is that the ideas you are mentioning really do sound like the ideas that come from AA, rather than the scholarly literature surrounding alcohol addiction and withdrawal. AA is not a scientifically supported intervention and their methods are not largely drawn from scientific literature.

lol but you are so right we probably are way off topic now so maybe we'll leave it here We can agree to disagree and as always, I enjoy our interactions just the same

 

[rozroz]

Thanks for all these posts!
Bery insightful for me.

Btw- i NEVER had any acute depression period in my life.
What, you suddenly are not aware that every second person next to you can be subscribed Cipralex?
It has nothing to with anything too serious in my case, and certainly not what was written above by @Baron23 !
And thanks for sharing that.
I just said im depressive by nature and needed some anti depressants within some emotional periods in my life.
Also, since i stopped using them i do no feel bad in any way.
Just more attentive and less a zombie.

 

[Diggy Smalls]

I have not read the whole thread. I read the first post and immediately understood at least some of what you're going through. I personally fear addiction in my life because it's been all around me growing up, and I'm just very mindful. Right now I'm using in the morning too, and I would prefer to only have evening usage.

For me, I try not to be too critical of myself, and to also take breaks. I'll stop for a few days when I have something fun going on like travel. I also try to take smaller amounts and space the doses out more. It's an ongoing thing for me. I love weed and I love that worries fade away, but that's just escapism. It's alright, but for me I need to set boundaries and limits and feel good about what self control I do have.

 

[rozroz]

thanks for the personal sharing @Diggy Smalls



i wanted to discuss another aspect: (regarding my negativity of being high)
maybe i'm judging my experience through narrow glasses?
i mean, regarding WHAT STRAIN i use?
i usually buy strain that's mainly Sativa for stimulating creativity.
when i go into my room to sit and make my art (music, video editing, etc)
i make the most out of these kind of strains, but it's not that i feel "in control".
i mentioned that i cannot really function in daily life with that kind of high,
unless i have no worries whatsoever and i am in a safe place (even with micro dosing)
i will start over thinking, be agitated, less in control of my mental state, feel that all responsibilities are too much to handle, etc etc.

maybe certain strains can simply eliminate that?
but personally, tbh i cannot tell the mental differences between different strains.
i tried many and they all feel the same.


this is beside the discussion whether i can get mentally dependable or not.
just wondering.
thanks.

 

[Baron23]

over thinking, be agitated, less in control of my mental state, feel that all responsibilities are too much to handle, etc etc.

Sounds like anxiety to me and some strains of cannabis induce anxiety more strongly than others. Racy sativa's for example, IMO.

 

[rozroz]

Sounds like anxiety to me and some strains of cannabis induce anxiety more strongly than others. Racy sativa's for example, IMO.

so in other words, ALL strains induce SOME KIND of anxiety?
(also depends on the individual i guess)
or there are some other specific kinds that don't do that at all?

 

[herbivore21]

thanks for the personal sharing @Diggy Smalls



i wanted to discuss another aspect: (regarding my negativity of being high)
maybe i'm judging my experience through narrow glasses?
i mean, regarding WHAT STRAIN i use?
i usually buy strain that's mainly Sativa for stimulating creativity.
when i go into my room to sit and make my art (music, video editing, etc)
i make the most out of these kind of strains, but it's not that i feel "in control".
i mentioned that i cannot really function in daily life with that kind of high,
unless i have no worries whatsoever and i am in a safe place (even with micro dosing)
i will start over thinking, be agitated, less in control of my mental state, feel that all responsibilities are too much to handle, etc etc.

maybe certain strains can simply eliminate that?
but personally, tbh i cannot tell the mental differences between different strains.
i tried many and they all feel the same.


this is beside the discussion whether i can get mentally dependable or not.
just wondering.
thanks.

Man I think yourself and @Baron23 may have nailed it. As @Baron23 says, that sounds like anxiety. It is quite possible that if your herb is a narrow leaf drug cultivar (which is the scholarly terminology for 'sativa' as the word is used in the cannabis culture), you are getting anxiety as a result of the chemotype of the plant you are using (that is, the cannabinoid and terpene profile of your bud is one that is likely to cause anxiety - this is actually commonly reported with NLDC's/'sativas').

You may find that you need to stick to the broad leaf 'indicas' to avoid this problem. Thanks for identifying this @Baron23!

Remember that the narrow leaf 'sativas' are very long flowering. What this means is that aside from what I mention above (they have chemicals profiles that cause anxiety to begin with):

If you are buying black market flowers especially, the flowers may have been harvested too early in flower (many growers simply do not appreciate that narrow leaf 'sativas' often need to flower for much longer than their broad leaf counterparts to produce mature resin - more to the point, commercial growers do not necessarily care to bother taking these plants to full-flower when they are growing for money and not for their own headstash). Immature resin is typically even more racy and anxiety provoking, compounding the abovementioned anxiety inducing effects of the chemical profile of these varieties (aka strains)!

As an aside, to give you an idea of how much longer a narrow leaf 'sativa' can take to flower beyond what an 'indica' can take, it is not uncommon to have an 'indica flowering for 8-9 weeks to get mature resin. 'Sativas' can need to flower for 15-25 weeks to get mature resin! To clarify, the majority of the medically and recreationally sought after compounds in cannabis are found in the glandular trichome heads of capitate stalked trichomes. These are the little clear stalks with balls on the top of them that look like crystals on your buds. This is what I mean by the 'resin'.

Edit: I should have pointed out that the picture in my avatar is a picture of isolated glandular trichome heads. This is called 'full melt bubble hash'. I find this to be the most effective way of consuming cannabis for depression. It has a high ratio of terpenes and a lower amount of THC than the solvent based concentrates that most people use and I find that this is much better for elevating mood than flowers or other extracts

If you can find another kind of variety, this could really work for you man, couldn't hurt to give it a try!

 

[rabblerouser]

so in other words, ALL strains induce SOME KIND of anxiety?
(also depends on the individual i guess)
or there are some other specific kinds that don't do that at all?

it definitely depends on the individual, as a general rule Cannabis helps with my anxiety. Certain strains help much more and certain strains, mainly certain sativas, and especially the particularly racy,fiery,trippy,energetic hazes can be anxiogenic for me.

I like many hazes all the same, but some of them set me off. There's one in particular that keeps coming back to NETA, Ghost Train Haze: specifically recommended against by the dispensary if you have anxiety/stress. I will not be buying that one.

 

[rozroz]

i know this also could be googled,
but still great personal angle and info, @rabblerouser and @herbivore21

 

[PPN]

Didn't read the whole thread, sorry. Some recent studies proved scientifically everything can be an addiction since you repeat it. The brain will create chimicals receptors and lead you to repeat the experience, like that even a movement or a word can become a sort of addiction ...not only drugs but everything is concerned, although it's not for life.

I think I'm addict of a lot of things...including eating french smelly cheese, drinking coffe and wine, taking good time with my wife, walking in the forest, watching TV, playing poker....and vaping cannabis!

 

[rozroz]

Didn't read the whole thread, sorry. Some recent studies proved scientifically everything can be an addiction since you repeat it. The brain will create chimicals receptors and lead you to repeat the experience, like that even a movement or a word can become a sort of addiction ...not only drugs but everything is concerned, although it's not for life.

I think I'm addict of a lot of things...including eating french smelly cheese, drinking coffe and wine, taking good time with my wife, walking in the forest, watching TV, playing poker....and vaping cannabis!

hmmm... i understand the anything is addicting concept, and it's true in a way,
but still When we are under the influence of Cannabis, it's still a heightened sensory experience and thus our brain gets used to want it again. It's not quite the same.

 

[rabblerouser]

hmmm... i understand the anything is addicting concept, and it's true in a way,
but still When we are under the influence of Cannabis, it's still a heightened sensory experience and thus our brain gets used to want it again. It's not quite the same.

yeah, it seems like it has to be easier to get addicted to something that has its own effects on the brain outside of the ability to become addicted to anything.

But I still fall back on the DSM manual for its definition of addiciton. Things like increasing tolerance, negative effects on your life, time spent on it, inability to cut down, using more than intended... If someone isn't having negative effects then there is little incentive to cut down other than maybe saving money. That was the main reason I ever tried to cut back (empty pockets), but for a while I did feel some guilt over using a non accepted illegal medical treatment. But, I've come to terms with it as part of my medical regimen. I'm even more comfortable with it now that I can get much more reliable and effective medicine. I'm pretty sure I no longer meet the criteria for any of the abuse disorder stuff, I might ask the Doctor next time I have a visit.

 

[rozroz]

If someone isn't having negative effects then there is little incentive to cut down other than maybe saving money. That was the main reason I ever tried to cut back (empty pockets), but for a while I did feel some guilt over using a non accepted illegal medical treatment. But, I've come to terms with it as part of my medical regimen. I'm even more comfortable with it now that I can get much more reliable and effective medicine. I'm pretty sure I no longer meet the criteria for any of the abuse disorder stuff, I might ask the Doctor next time I have a visit.

so maybe it's only me,
but if you strip it down to the basics,
using cannabis for let's say, relaxing,
to me personally, the dependency effect is like taking mild tranquilizers.
the THOUGHT of being dependent on it,
somehow feels so negative to me, that it prevents me from even wanting it.
(of course that if i had anxiety and panic attacks, maybe it was a great cure- i'm referring to a regular state of mind with just a need to relax)

i guess it's like i say "what's the point? so now i'll start using it whenever i need to relax?"

and don't get me wrong, i generally think life is a shitty place and we need to make the most of what we have to enjoy it. what a contradiction huh?

maybe it's some kind of personal mechanism in me that prevents me from being dependent?
maybe i just don't like the feeling that my brain will need a daily "dosage" to relax instead of naturally achieving it?
i dunno.

 

[rabblerouser]

i guess it's like i say "what's the point? so now i'll start using it whenever i need to relax?"

and don't get me wrong, i generally think life is a shitty place and we need to make the most of what we have to enjoy it. what a contradiction huh?

maybe it's some kind of personal mechanism in me that prevents me from being dependent?
maybe i just don't like the feeling that my brain will need a daily "dosage" to relax instead of naturally achieving it?
i dunno.

So your concern is that you could start to RELY on it to relax? If you did rely on it, than maybe a case could be made for addiction or abuse. That's not impossible, if it's just a way you relax I say it's fine, if it becomes the only way you relax then it is a problem. But there's no guarantee that will happen either. I'm naturally tense, I have no problem relying on medicine to help me relax, but it's still not the only thing that relaxes me; it's just an effective tool.

 

[rozroz]

found this thread byw

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/marijuana-and-depression-and-anxiety.20431/

 

[cannabis.pro]

I've found that mixing 2:1 or 3:1 CBD:THC cannabis in with strains that make me anxious eliminates that aspect of the mix. Normally I'll just go 50:50 High CBD:High THC strainwise (everything I find here in Vermont has Sativa in it, how I miss the Bay Area & Humboldt).

In terms of cannabis overall, I keep coming back to this quote time and time again from one of the leading researchers on the plant in the world:

"Eat, sleep, relax, forget, and protect" Di Marzo 1998

 

[Tranquility]

It seems like a lot of jargon and definitions need to be put out there before any can be confident they are talking about the same thing.

I see concepts of dependence, physical effects on withdrawal and addiction all woven through comments with differing meaning and word use throughout. When we get to the application by personal choice to broadly defined things like anxiety or depression, (When in reality, those things are complex and have varied sources, causes and effects.) things get harder still.

What I know is that some people have a problem when marijuana is in their lives. Some don't.

None are unaffected.