the addiction debate

[rozroz]

Definition of Addiction from the American Society of Addiction Medicine

Public Policy Statement: Definition of Addiction

Short Definition of Addiction:

Addiction is a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Dysfunction in these circuits leads to characteristic biological, psychological, social and spiritual manifestations. This is reflected in an individual pathologically pursuing reward and/or relief by substance use and other behaviors.

Addiction is characterized by inability to consistently abstain, impairment in behavioral control, craving, diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships, and a dysfunctional emotional response. Like other chronic diseases, addiction often involves cycles of relapse and remission. Without treatment or engagement in recovery activities, addiction is progressive and can result in disability or premature death. I dunno, not too worried about a cannabis death.

http://www.asam.org/quality-practice/definition-of-addiction

Addiction is a huge forest with many different trees. My tree is the cannabis nut tree.

you address the mental addiction to Cannabis mostly as a "regular" physical addiction.
it's a very complicated personal issue with people who mentally depend on being high all day (again, not medical MJ users), most of them won't admit it and live with themselves withing their logical explanation to why this is not addictive, really. (NOT saying you are one of them).

It is important to realize that even the formal psychiatric diagnostic criteria do not speak of cannabis addiction. Even the research looking at withdrawals is thread-bare and controversial among researchers (this does still remain within relevant diagnostic criteria in the DSM-V as we see below!).

Cannabis use disorder (the main formal diagnosis that replaced the old 'cannabis dependence or cannabis abuse' diagnoses in the DSM-IV) requires at least two out of the following twelve criteria to be met:


A problematic pattern of cannabis use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by at least 2 of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:

• Cannabis is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended.
• There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control cannabis use.
• A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain cannabis, use cannabis, or recover from its effects.
• Craving, or a strong desire or urge to use cannabis.
• Recurrent cannabis use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, or home.
• Continued cannabis use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of cannabis.
• Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of cannabis use.
• Recurrent cannabis use in situations in which it is physically hazardous.
• Cannabis use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by cannabis.
• Tolerance, as defined by either a (1) need for markedly increased cannabis to achieve intoxication or desired effect or (2) markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the substance.
• Withdrawal, as manifested by either (1) the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for cannabis or (2) cannabis is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms.
  
  Let's stop and consider the final criterion, withdrawal:
  • Cessation of cannabis use that has been heavy and prolonged (ie, usually daily or almost daily use over a period of at least a few months).
  • Three or more of the following signs and symptoms develop within approximately 1 week after cessation of heavy, prolonged use:
    • Irritability, anger or aggression
    • Nervousness or anxiety
    • Sleep difficulty (ie, insomnia, disturbing dreams)
    • Decreased appetite or weight loss
    • Restlessness
    • Depressed mood
    • At least one of the following physical symptoms causing significant discomfort: abdominal pain, shakiness/tremors, sweating, fever, chills, or headache
  • The signs or symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
  • The signs or symptoms are not attributable to another medical condition and are not better explained by another mental disorder, including intoxication or withdrawal from another substance.

Note that points 2 and 3 of the withdrawal criteria here are very relevant in the OP's case. If you stop using cannabis to treat depressive conditions that existed before the use of the cannabis, then there is an obvious differential diagnosis that should be made here that the underlying depressive symptoms were caused by something pre-existing and hence are not withdrawal symptoms, but simply the results of cessation of treatment of a symptom with medication!

A number of other DSM-V diagnoses relate to cannabis, with diagnoses relating to cannabis related anxiety, psychosis, delirium and sleep disorders. However, these all have the same exclusionary criteria suggesting that if the titular symptom existed prior to the cannabis use, that the diagnosis of the cannabis disorder is precluded.

I hope this clears up where clinicians stand on this topic! Of course, philosophically we can talk about addiction too, but the above are the criteria by which medical professionals, insurers etc operate!

good stuff. read many articles this week regarding all this.
your point to my case, is that i can sustain being high a few nights a week, and already feel that slight withdrawal symptoms right after. yea, i know that, and that's the "price" i pay each week.
many times before getting high, i consider the effects i will have, and sometimes i make myself choose not to be high. not an easy decision!

It really makes it clear how significant the barriers are with medical cannabis for mental health doesn't it?! There is so much confusion in the community about addiction and cannabis. There is so much more confusion out there about cannabis and mental health.

There is less confusion in the letter of the literature as quoted above (although I really want to see studies demonstrating that there is a statistically significant number of people with 'cannabis withdrawals' as described above that are not explained by pre-existing symptoms that justifies including this criterion!!!), but even so, there is still great confusion among practitioners who IME are still inclined to hastily make cannabis-related diagnoses without paying attention to the exclusionary criteria (this is a big problem throughout clinical psych practice when applying the DSM and is not limited to drug related diagnoses!).

This is where we need to see progress. It starts with more careful undergrad education of psych professionals and it is especially important that the best practice in the field and new research is effectively communicated throughout clinician's careers, even long after they have left college!

interesting stuff.
the main problem is that the % of regular stoners (mostly younger people) who live with this, and making it their agenda, that it's perfectly ok being high all the time, it's no harm, it makes life better.. this is uncontrollable.

 

[rozroz]

Good point. No real traction will be made until doctors learn how to use cannabis. Stoners are not going to be the key to the lock that answers any of these questions.

One positive result of the current cannabis struggle in America is that science is finally beginning to be allowed to take a 'pseudo' look at the monarch of all herbs. Crazy that this is just happening and it is 2016 and all we really get is a sniff with our science. George Carlin was right.

agreed!

Excellent thread! Both OP and discussion.

Feel akin to @rozroz and @darbarikanada. @rozroz, if you think you're depressed, see a psychiatrist if possible. Personally, found little help from talk, but Prozac has been helpful for many years. Actually stopped using cannabis briefly after starting Prozac. (Soon found Prozac + cannabis to be even better.)

Sounds like an extended time-off could be positive in the long-run, especially if combined with psychotherapy. It might boost confidence in your creativity.

Are you a professional artist or musician? I ask, because as an amateur musician, I love to get high and practice. It's disinhibiting, and some of us benefit from that. If I was trying to make steady progress at it, though, I'd try to limit cannabis use. I'd be concerned that memory and learning speed might be impaired. (Just from personal experience - unfamiliar with latest research.) Last teacher was much younger than I am. She is a musical athlete, clean and sober. (Like the protagonist in Mozart in the Jungle.)



How? I've eaten mushrooms as long as my ...finger and felt nothing, while tiny buttons had me tripping for 24 hours!

i'm "half" a professional artist, lol. i live a troubled life (with the art blessing comes a curse..),
and as said above, was taking Cipralex many years to feel more "safe" from extreme bad feelings.
i chose to stop it in order to cope with things in a different way. Cipralex makes me a mental zombie with less motivation to improve. i hated these kind of crutches.
not that it's easier now, but my mental "tools" are more precise.

yeah, my Psych RN posited that they will be looking at all of the cannabis disorder stuff with a new eye with it being more and more accepted for medical purposes.

Addiction is very real, but some people don't even realize that they are self-medicating. I wasn't really sure that's what it was until the doctor said that's exactly what I was doing.

Now, with premium medical doobie it's much easier to medicate and get a strain that actually hits the spot.

i dunno, i still discover what can different strains do, but mostly i search for Sativas that feel creative.



what i didn't say before and making clear now,
is that these days the ONLY reason i feel ok to be high, is to enlarge my creative tools.
while doing it i can enjoy other recreational activities but still, i see no other reason to be "just high".
it doesn't mean it's not tempting to live while high, but as i said, many responsibilities can feel too much for me while high, so i'm limited to my "safe zone".
i look at it as a powerful tool to use. while i was in my 20s we smoked every evening and had fun,
out of nothingness and boredom, today (when i'm clear minded) it seems futile for me.

 

[crawdad]

the whole mental addiction thing.
when i feel medicated, it's like a sort of bliss, a breath of magic air, being a child, and all that.

as a sensitive and too much of a thinker, i immediately feel the "consequences" the day after.
the brain wants it again, moodiness.. symptoms of mental dependency that i recognize and prefer to avoid.

so i wanted to hear your thoughts on this kind of delicate struggle, that prevents me form just being medicated at least every evening.
you may ask why - why won't you just let loose and be medicated all the time?

well, because it's depressing! that's why. it's a magic world that invites you in and basically you poison your brain with the herbs, and i KNOW it's not the way i wanna live daily.

so feel free to discuss your angle on the subject.

thanks!

perhaps the frequency of usage is setting you too close to the tipping point of chasing vs maintaining, ive experienced this and would describe it quite similar as you have (can be hard to identify at times especially under influence) and will vary for each of us. of course its also possible to simply overthink this to the point that the struggle is of reasoning and not of true dependency.

balance: the point at which your usage does not end in struggle. \\//

 

[rozroz]

perhaps the frequency of usage is setting you too close to the tipping point of chasing vs maintaining, ive experienced this and would describe it quite similar as you have (can be hard to identify at times especially under influence) and will vary for each of us. of course its also possible to simply overthink this to the point that the struggle is of reasoning and not of true dependency.

balance: the point at which your usage does not end in struggle. \\//

so i wonder what's your "ratio" these days? how's your mechanism?

 

[HighSeasSailor]

i agree with you about what the people around us do in order to cope with reality,
but on the other hand i kinda despise it. that's my nature.
same way i cannot smoke cigarettes, and not enjoy alcohol.
i am positive though, that the worst thing to do is being high to escape depression.

Not quite the worst.

I did not realize that you were clinically depressed at present, and took your initial post to mean "depressed" in the sense that life gets everyone down. My advice was offered in that spirit.

It seems you suffer from clinical depression that requires medication? If so, then I submit that you should not ask the internet to take responsibility for your medical decisions. My advice would be to cease all use of mood-altering drugs until you have consulted with a qualified doctor, and follow their advice exclusively when you do.

Arguing over what is or is not addiction, or whether it's appropriate to depend on cannabis for mood regulation, is all completely irrelevant here. Clinical depression is a physical condition that you cannot just ignore; if your former meds were unacceptable, this is something to discuss with a doctor, as is any psychological hangup you have about the ethics of regular or prescription use of substances.

The worst thing to do would be to assume you have your depression in hand. Especially if others depend on you.

 

[rozroz]

Not quite the worst.

I did not realize that you were clinically depressed at present, and took your initial post to mean "depressed" in the sense that life gets everyone down. My advice was offered in that spirit.

It seems you suffer from clinical depression that requires medication? If so, then I submit that you should not ask the internet to take responsibility for your medical decisions. My advice would be to cease all use of mood-altering drugs until you have consulted with a qualified doctor, and follow their advice exclusively when you do.

Arguing over what is or is not addiction, or whether it's appropriate to depend on cannabis for mood regulation, is all completely irrelevant here. Clinical depression is a physical condition that you cannot just ignore; if your former meds were unacceptable, this is something to discuss with a doctor, as is any psychological hangup you have about the ethics of regular or prescription use of substances.

The worst thing to do would be to assume you have your depression in hand. Especially if others depend on you.

you took this too far.
i am a "depressionable" person by nature, well aware of my limitations and moods.
it's not only now, it's ups and downs in life that trigger light or heavier depression in me.
i am in full control don't worry. was just thinking about the whole addiction thing, being creative, etc.
no worries.

 

[invertedisdead]

i am positive though, that the worst thing to do is being high to escape depression.

How do you know this isn't your depression trying to turn you off from feeling better?
The darkness tends to do that, keep us down.

 

[rabblerouser]

i'm "half" a professional artist, lol. i live a troubled life (with the art blessing comes a curse..),
and as said above, was taking Cipralex many years to feel more "safe" from extreme bad feelings.
i chose to stop it in order to cope with things in a different way. Cipralex makes me a mental zombie with less motivation to improve. i hated these kind of crutches.
not that it's easier now, but my mental "tools" are more precise.

depending on how much any depressive tendencies affect you, there are a LOT of other psych meds out there. Many people try several of the same class or move on to different classes or drug cocktails to adequately treat their symptoms without intolerable side effects. I swear by both psych meds + medical doobie to keep me on an even keel.

 

[rozroz]

How do you know this isn't your depression trying to turn you off from feeling better?
The darkness tends to do that, keep us down.

hmm.
first, i don't call it "Feeling better", but "escaping reality"..
because it won't make you feel better, if you wake up the day after, feeling worse or the same..
i cannot tell for sure, but from the basic fact that we ALL probably get dependent on weed when consuming it daily, i conclude that while being depressed (not only from my pov), weed (and other more severe substances) can either worsen your condition, or widen the gap between escaping and reality..
hope i'm clear..

 

[rozroz]

depending on how much any depressive tendencies affect you, there are a LOT of other psych meds out there. Many people try several of the same class or move on to different classes or drug cocktails to adequately treat their symptoms without intolerable side effects. I swear by both psych meds + medical doobie to keep me on an even keel.

i really don't believe any med is a cure.
they can be efficient for sever depression.
yes they can help you get out of bed,
and "perform" your duties.
crutches.
but with a price.
imo.

 

[Baron23]

or the life of me, i cannot understand how it can HELP depression except escape from it.

I can. I have been diagnosed in the past with acute bouts of clinical depression, dysthymia whihc is chronically being a 'quart low' type of depression, AHDD, and chronic anxiety.

Further, given my background I feel I have quite a bit of experience earlier in my life of reality escape via drugs. I don't find that what I do these days is anything like that.

I vape mostly at night prior to sleep. I have an injured back that makes sleeping without sedation very difficult and I refuse to take crap zombie making stuff like Ambien.

I have found that MJ doesn't not leave me hung over the next morning and my overall mood is elevated when not high. That is, I feel more calm, more optimistic, and just more joyful/happy during my day as a result of my MMJ use the night before.

I have tried multiple pharma antidepressants and found the downside to outweigh the upside for me personally. I NEVER make recommendations to ANYBODY about clinical topics...I'm not a Dr. But for me, the antidepressants required too high a price for the benefit while I don't find that true of cannabis.

Just my experience. Doesn't mean it applies to anybody else but its what I'm getting.

Oh, as far as 'how my brain is supposed to work", its very clear to me at this point in my life. My brain is 'supposed to work" in a manner that I enjoy (I find no virtue in suffering). End of story but its taken quite some time and age to understand this.

Cheers

 

[rozroz]

I can. I have been diagnosed in the past with acute bouts of clinical depression, dysthymia whihc is chronically being a 'quart low' type of depression, AHDD, and chronic anxiety.

Further, given my background I feel I have quite a bit of experience earlier in my life of reality escape via drugs. I don't find that what I do these days is anything like that.

I vape mostly at night prior to sleep. I have an injured back that makes sleeping without sedation very difficult and I refuse to take crap zombie making stuff like Ambien.

I have found that MJ doesn't not leave me hung over the next morning and my overall mood is elevated when not high. That is, I feel more calm, more optimistic, and just more joyful/happy during my day as a result of my MMJ use the night before.

I have tried multiple pharma antidepressants and found the downside to outweigh the upside for me personally. I NEVER make recommendations to ANYBODY about clinical topics...I'm not a Dr. But for me, the antidepressants required too high a price for the benefit while I don't find that true of cannabis.

Just my experience. Doesn't mean it applies to anybody else but its what I'm getting.

Oh, as far as 'how my brain is supposed to work", its very clear to me at this point in my life. My brain is 'supposed to work" in a manner that I enjoy (I find no virtue in suffering). End of story but its taken quite some time and age to understand this.

Cheers

thanks for sharing.
sounds like it really helps you feel ok, and a daily use before sleep is something many people i know do,
not even for the high, just to feel calm before bed.
which is always a big plus, there's nothing like drowsing into sleep stoned.

 

[rabblerouser]

i really don't believe any med is a cure.
they can be efficient for sever depression.
yes they can help you get out of bed,
and "perform" your duties.
crutches.
but with a price.
imo.

the meds def don't "cure" anything, they are all supposed to treat symptoms. But they have made me go from waking up very anxious most morning and being anxious most days to feeling pretty normal most of the time and not at all 'drugged'. But that's after a number of years of trying different drugs until I found something that worked well for me. Ideally they are just supposed to make you feel normal and definitely not "drugged" (although many of them make many people who take them feel "drugged"). And even still, the psych drug cocktail doesn't treat all of my symptoms, medical doobie fills in the gaps.

 

[HighSeasSailor]

i really don't believe any med is a cure.
they can be efficient for sever depression.
yes they can help you get out of bed,
and "perform" your duties.
crutches.
but with a price.
imo.

I have to think most people who actually need crutches consider them a welcome relief, not a price to pay. The "price" was whatever injury led them to require crutches. You can continue to pay the price and sit on your ass, or you can cut your losses and use the crutch to pull yourself up onto your feet again.

Just my opinion. I have higher regard for the man who picks up his crutch and gets to work than the one who lingers in bed to bitch about his poor self - especially if he's also criticizing the other for relying on his crutch.

There are no cures. But there are treatments. Ironically, you seem more okay with the stereotypically "stoner" activity of getting high and playing unprofitable garage music than with controlled regular doses to self-medicate mood. That seems like a strange attitude to have, if I'm perfectly honest.

 

[invertedisdead]

hmm.
first, i don't call it "Feeling better", but "escaping reality"..
because it won't make you feel better, if you wake up the day after, feeling worse or the same..
i cannot tell for sure, but from the basic fact that we ALL probably get dependent on weed when consuming it daily, i conclude that while being depressed (not only from my pov), weed (and other more severe substances) can either worsen your condition, or widen the gap between escaping and reality..
hope i'm clear..

If cannabis makes you feel like a victim of substance abuse, I think you've made it clear this plant is not for you. To be honest it sounds like you already had your mind made up when you asked the question.

 

[rozroz]

I have to think most people who actually need crutches consider them a welcome relief, not a price to pay. The "price" was whatever injury led them to require crutches. You can continue to pay the price and sit on your ass, or you can cut your losses and use the crutch to pull yourself up onto your feet again.

Just my opinion. I have higher regard for the man who picks up his crutch and gets to work than the one who lingers in bed to bitch about his poor self - especially if he's also criticizing the other for relying on his crutch.

There are no cures. But there are treatments. Ironically, you seem more okay with the stereotypically "stoner" activity of getting high and playing unprofitable garage music than with controlled regular doses to self-medicate mood. That seems like a strange attitude to have, if I'm perfectly honest.

Agree with yout approach, and i'm no different.
Where did you get the idea i'm a stoner who likes to jam to music?
I specifically said Cannabis high is a powerful tool and i need to not feel dependent on it.
I just dont agree self medicating on cannabis gets you out of depression.

If cannabis makes you feel like a victim of substance abuse, I think you've made it clear this plant is not for you. To be honest it sounds like you already had your mind made up when you asked the question.

Maybe i just exaggerated and you misunderstood. I still think its a very useful creative tool for my needs, but regarding its after effects i personally need to be careful because for me it's emotionally powerful.

 

[HighSeasSailor]

Agree with yout approach, and i'm no different.
Where did you get the idea i'm a stoner who likes to jam to music?
I specifically said Cannabis high is a powerful tool and i need to not feel dependent on it.
I just dont agree self medicating on cannabis gets you out of depression.

To quote yourself:

"i am kind of an artist, mainly musician, and i'm having 2-3 evenings a week using Cannabis, mainly to help a bit with my focus and creativity"

And a dozen or more other quotes throughout this thread in which you wax poetic about the value of pot as a creative aid. Indeed, the post directly above this calls it a "creative tool for my needs."

You also give considerable voice to side effects, "hangovers", and other effects that suggest a very different pattern of use than someone who carefully self-medicates - or possibly effects that suggest cannabis affects you differently than others and that it's not for you.

I also agree that given all you've said, I think you're probably better off not using. You've made it pretty clear that cannabis makes you more depressed, not less, and you seem conflicted about its use by others as well.

Can I be brutally honest? Most of what you've said here, about your general views, having a new kid, and being "depressed" except not actually depressed, makes it sound to me like you are aware that you need to get your shit together, feel like smoking pot isn't helping that, and came here in hopes that you'd somehow find the answer. But the answer was in front of you all along - you just have to get your shit together, whichever way that is. Prioritizing use of cannabis as a "creative tool" over "staying sane enough that I can be a family man" tells me that you know it's time to put it aside - and maybe some other things as well. Getting old sucks.

 

[rozroz]

To quote yourself:

"i am kind of an artist, mainly musician, and i'm having 2-3 evenings a week using Cannabis, mainly to help a bit with my focus and creativity"

And a dozen or more other quotes throughout this thread in which you wax poetic about the value of pot as a creative aid. Indeed, the post directly above this calls it a "creative tool for my needs."

You also give considerable voice to side effects, "hangovers", and other effects that suggest a very different pattern of use than someone who carefully self-medicates - or possibly effects that suggest cannabis affects you differently than others and that it's not for you.

I also agree that given all you've said, I think you're probably better off not using. You've made it pretty clear that cannabis makes you more depressed, not less, and you seem conflicted about its use by others as well.

Can I be brutally honest? Most of what you've said here, about your general views, having a new kid, and being "depressed" except not actually depressed, makes it sound to me like you are aware that you need to get your shit together, feel like smoking pot isn't helping that, and came here in hopes that you'd somehow find the answer. But the answer was in front of you all along - you just have to get your shit together, whichever way that is. Prioritizing use of cannabis as a "creative tool" over "staying sane enough that I can be a family man" tells me that you know it's time to put it aside - and maybe some other things as well. Getting old sucks.

you've just taken it all out of proportion. really!

i am a moody depressive guy. it's a fact.
a am also many other things.
i have no problem getting out of bed and going to work.
it doesn't mean i don't suffer in other "departments".
the 2-3 nights a week i invest into my art HUGELY help me feel more full inside,
more purpose in my life, etc. micro dosing while doing it helps a lot.

i do not understand why this cannot co exist with the down sides of being high?
its rather obvious. otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion.
no need to be this aggressive and one sided.

 

[Farid]

you've just taken it all out of proportion. really!
i do not understand why this cannot co exist with the down sides of being high?
its rather obvious. otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion.
no need to be this aggressive and one sided.

Whatever downsides individuals might feel from cannabis, they are hardly obvious. The fact is everybody is different, and we all react to substances different.

For example for me stimulants make it hard for me to concentrate because they make me feel all over the place fucked up. To others, particularly those with ADD and ADHD, stimulants are useful tools to help them concentrate.

Another example is alcohol. For many people alcohol makes them relaxed and acts as a social lubricant. For others alcohol makes them extremely anxious and makes socializing even more difficult.

 

[HighSeasSailor]

you've just taken it all out of proportion. really!

i am a moody depressive guy. it's a fact.
a am also many other things.
i have no problem getting out of bed and going to work.
it doesn't mean i don't suffer in other "departments".
the 2-3 nights a week i invest into my art HUGELY help me feel more full inside,
more purpose in my life, etc. micro dosing while doing it helps a lot.

i do not understand why this cannot co exist with the down sides of being high?
its rather obvious. otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion.
no need to be this aggressive and one sided.

Depression is not something to take lightly, but this is the term you've chosen. Are you not seeing how this causes confusion?

I'm not trying to be aggressive, but you're trying to have it both ways. You're moody and depressed, but not enough that you actually need any help. You previously took meds, but now you're fine. You're microdosing, but this still gives you a hangover.

I guess I just don't see things this way. At all. If you're depressed, seek help. If not, you should find another term, and maybe not throw out to strangers on the internet that you took psychiatric meds for it previously, because there's only one responsible conclusion to come to from this limited information, in spite of your denials. If cannabis has these downsides, so that you feel you should not use it while your child is awake, then I say it's just as irresponsible to do it while they sleep as well, even if that sucks for you. Not passing judgement, but that's how I would think about it.

I don't know if I understand what discussion you're having? I don't see the "obvious" downsides you do, and clearly I have a very different experience with the medicine in general. It does very much the opposite of making me more depressed, I don't feel after effects of any kind, and I don't feel withdrawals any more severe than the simple absence of the medicine. This is why I've suggested that you might be better off without, because I don't see the dilemma that you do, and if I did, I would err on the side of caution and not use it. To me, the absence of negative side effects is indeed one of the biggest positives of cannabis in general.

I can't really tell you what to do with your life. You asked, I answered. I can see the answers weren't all that welcomed, but that's the risk.

 

[rozroz]

@HighSeasSailor ,
fair enough.
i guess all i wanted to do is hear other people share what they thought about these kinds of personal situations and thoughts surrounding it.
i thought that sharing a few personal details about myself was necessary.
but i certainly wasn't seeking any real help. nothing of the sort!
i take good care of myself regarding my emotional state.
the delicate limit of my drug use is something i wanted to share and discuss.
and i did get a few thoughtful and personal replies that made me think about it from other angles.
other people knew exactly what i was talking about.

no worries.

 

[MonsterWithoutBorders]

I am a newly emerged philosopher. After a long work career in the computer world I retired to become a philosopher (which was my training). Cannabis helps with my thoughts. I would probably not be able to get where I wanted thought wise without cannabis. It is amazing to me that my adjusted thoughts often given the sober light of day still seem potent. Earlier in my life I felt very hindered (paranoia) by the legal aspects of it. However now that I live in Seattle that nasty part has gone. I am worried about the economics of big pharma and the cut throat nature of the I-502 world we live in here. When cannabis starts giving me a hangover (fuzziness or a headache) then I will see whether it has an addictive side for me. Till then I feel fortunate to be able to explore this part of life freely.

 

[darbarikanada]

one more anecdotal bit to support the idea of taking a break: I used to work with someone who was having depression and anger issues. when he asked his HMO for counseling, they asked him to fill out a questionnaire, including re drug use. he copped to using weed. they told him that they'd get him into counseling if he didn't get high for (I think it was) 2 or 3 months first, because in their experience, something like 90% of the emotional problems people presented with went away when they took a break like that (I believe this was re all substances). this particular HMO (group health) was very focused on 'outcomes', i.e. not giving treatments that don't have a good record of actually working.

I keep reading that 'cannabis doesn't cause depression', but it's things like this, as well as my experience, and seeing co-workers (heavy users), that makes me skeptical about this claim. what rozroz describes (mood dip the day after) is very similar to what I've experienced, although in my case it's usually 2 or 3 days after, which wouldn't be noticeable if we were getting high every day. another admittedly anecdotal/personal observation: back when I was a near-daily user, I realized that I never was able to get giddy happy, e.g. have a laughing fit, if I wasn't high. eventually I got my use way down (1 - 2x/mo), but it took at least 6 months before I got back the ability to be giddy without weed. it's just a theory, but my guess would be that the brain gets 'lazy' at manufacturing whatever compounds are involved with euphoria (is it just dopamine? I don't know) if you're regularly stimulating their production with something like weed - and it takes the brain a while to get that 'muscle' back into shape.

we're all unique in our response to cannabis. some people - like the OP and me - notice a downside to it that sure feels like depression. if it also stimulates creativity - another common observation - you have to balance the positives and negatives. what I get from the OP is that their ideal state would be creative flow without any downside, cannabis-related or not. I'd suggest - and this forum is probably the worst place to do it - that removing cannabis from the equation for a fairly extended time in order to get good 'data' should be considered; we're talking about 'breaking a habit', possibly 'reordering neurons' - and these both take some time.

 

[rabblerouser]

To me, the absence of negative side effects is indeed one of the biggest positives of cannabis in general.

yeah, I definitely do not see downsides to the cannabis, OR any of the psych meds I am currently on. found a good cocktail and feelin good most of the time anyway.


many people think that taking meds for psych issues is somehow bad or makes you weak, while they would take high blood pressure medicine without thinking about it.

ha!, I look down on all those weak-hearted people

 

[herbivore21]

very risky stuff you wrote up there.
depression is made of many many aspects, different from person to person.
same as THC effects differently on people.
for the life of me, i cannot understand how it can HELP depression except escape from it.
as i said above, i personally cannot be high while too depressed, it's just terrible and can lead to worse results. maybe you read new researchings on those cannabis aspects (CBD?) that i'm not aware of.
but i feel it's very logical Cannabis dependency makes you lack Dopamine, etc.

It is important to read the literal letter of the diagnostic criteria above to understand that one could be a heavy daily user of cannabis and not meet the criteria for something medically diagnosable relating to their cannabis use. The diagnostic criteria each require a manifestation that causes clinically significant distress to the user.

There is a slight equivocation in the above post between depression and cannabis dependency. Are we discussing any actual case of dependency in this thread? After all, it is doubtful that you meet the criteria I shared above for a cannabis disorder. You simply do not use cannabis often enough to be likely to have a diagnosable problem or 'dependency'.

CBD is known to have activity on the serotonin receptors (5-ht1a if you're curious) as well as the mechanism I described in my last post - not just the cb2 receptor! It has a lot of promise for treating depression and a variety of bodily, psychiatric and neurological conditions. THC has been identified to have antidepressant like activity in preclinical studies. The current regulatory environment federally in the US is not accommodating for scholarly researchers to go beyond preclinical studies at this point for THC so this is the best information we will get from this portion of the worlds medical scientists until things change.

The claims I make about cannabis being known to have antidepressant effects are all from scientific journal articles, I encourage you to check out www.scholar.google.com and search cannabis and depression to find some of this literature. Unfortunately, you won't be able to read the entire studies unless you have a subscription to scholarly journals (which means either you're a college student, academic/researcher or you spent a hell of a lot of money on it yourself!). Still, the abstracts (summaries of the aims, methods and findings of the study) are almost always visible for free so you'll be able to get a reasonable idea of what has been found so far. Do not use regular google when you are asking scientific questions! That is what Google Scholar is for

I'm not going to engage with the anecdotes above nor the rest of this discussion, since it seems you guys want to have an anecdotal conversation and I am interested in talking about the science - this is nothing negative towards you guys of course, the description of the thread confused me and it appears actually not to be a discussion for me

Man I do want to echo what @HighSeasSailor said. You are continually both asserting and denying your own depression in this thread. You were prescribed anti-depressants which means a doctor had to think you had clinically significant depressive symptoms at least in the past. That is as clear an identification of depression as you're going to find (short of diagnosing the underlying causal condition that causes the depressive symptoms - depression is not a condition, but a symptom). Depression is a serious symptom and you speak in ways that appear to negate this symptom's validity and speak of treating depression in terms of 'crutches' which is pejorative language - likely to be offensive to a good section of the people out there with depressive illness.

Please consider the following parting message:

Medicating a genuine illness symptom like depression is not an 'escape' from life. It is quite the opposite to an 'escape'. It allows many like myself to live our lives fruitfully rather than facing constant disability, debilitation and distress. I am a hard working scientist who would not be working today if it were not for medical cannabis to treat depression and a variety of other symptoms. Your claims suggesting that cannabis is not an anti-depressant, rather an 'escape' contradicts the present scholarly literature (which is rapidly growing around the world and with legal changes hopefully will happen more in the US) but they also deny the realities of many people here who have had success using cannabis to treat depression.