The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

[Serious]

"Enough of the “Us vs. Them” binary: Why I’m writing in Bernie Sanders on election day
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump strike me as dishonest and untrustworthy, so I refuse to vote for either of them"

Bernie will be voting for Hillary.

Donald Trump doesn't "strike me" as dishonest. I KNOW he's dishonest because I can disprove dozens of things he's said.

I don't think someone should be castigated for how they "strike" someone, if the writer thinks Hillary is dishonest and untrustworthy, then they should display the cojones to state how specifically. And when that's done, the end product had better be more substantial than ANYTHING the eight Bengazi hearings produced.

Clinton has worked in public service for decades, always as a Republican lightning rod, yet most of what they've thrown at her seems to wind up sticking to them.

 

[psychonaut]

Jr talking about pouring sheetrock, geez the pressure must be intense.

 

[SSVUN~YAH]

Jr talking about pouring sheetrock, geez the pressure must be intense.

That was great, his spray on tan almost melted off when he said hanging sheetrock and pouring drywall!

 

[t-dub]

This isn't a good comparison, Obama used the same phrase that a close friend of his had used in a similar situation, moreover, according to the NY Times: "Mr. Patrick said he and Mr. Obama discussed the argument in advance and he encouraged his friend to defend himself the same way he did during his race in 2006." Since you can't plagiarize someone who doesn't object, technically, it didn't even happen.

Obama also gave Patrick credit when asked, whereas the Trump campaign has yet to even admit that plagiarism took place.

I didn't accuse Obama of plagiarism, Hillary Clinton's campaign did.

Oh, and I love how you snipped out the part about Joe Biden when you quoted me, nicely done. How do you account for him having to abandon his presidential campaign for not only plagiarizing but then lying about being the first person in his family history to attend college or his ancestors being coal miners, as he claimed when he used Kinnock’s words?

My point is both sides do these things. What will be interesting moving forward is if the Trump campaign will fire the speechwriter, which would counter their claim that Melania wrote the speech, and the analysis being done on previous first ladies speeches and how similar the themes in them are.

Edit: I really dislike trophy hunting, its an evil act, however, we have another thread for that discussion already in place.

 

[CarolKing]

These pics on Trump's sons apply to this thread as well @t-dub. Thanks for the reminder.

I didn't know Hillary wouldn't be able to pass a background check? I don't think that's correct? I tried looking online there isn't much. That's what Donald Jr. said. It sounds like something coming from his dad. I would like to know facts about that? If he's wrong I'm sure the media will say something, I hope.

 

[Serious]

I didn't accuse Obama of plagiarism, Hillary Clinton's campaign did.

Oh, and I love how you snipped out the part about Joe Biden when you quoted me, nicely done. How do you account for him having to abandon his presidential campaign for not only plagiarizing but then lying about being the first person in his family history to attend college, as he asserted, or his ancestors being coal miners, as he claimed when he used Kinnock’s words?

My point is both sides do these things.

You didn't accuse Obama? Oh! My mistake. When you said, "This plagiarism thing is unseemly for sure, however after reading the whole article Gunky posted a while back it seems both sides partake. Obama and Biden for instance:" I sorta assumed you felt that Obama had partaken of plagiarism.

I snipped out the Biden part because it wasn't pertinent to the point I was making. I remember the time and Biden did, indeed commit plagiarism 28 years ago, and worse, as he apparently adopted facts that didn't actually apply to himself. If you're concerned that I think no Democrats have ever been plagiarists, I don't think that. But you know, 1988 WAS a quite a long time ago, so perhaps if you'd given two recent and undeniable examples...

MY point was that you're using false equivalencies. To say that "both sides do it" suggests that obvious, proven plagiarism which demonstrates (once again) the sloppy ineptitude of the Trump Campaign is equivalent to a. Obama using a friend's words with permission or b. something that happened in 1988. Both sides DON'T do what Melania did. In fact neither side does, because the real (non-Trump) Republicans know better than this also. There's an interesting article in today's NY Times in which one of Geo. Bush's speechwriters discusses how no professional would ever let such a poorly vetted speech go out.

 

[t-dub]

These pics on Trump's sons apply to this thread as well @t-dub. Thanks for the reminder.

I know they do and you are correct. I just wanted to remind people that we had a really good discussion on this subject elsewhere on FC . . .

 

[Gunky]

The second day of the convention was even more shameful than the first. They claimed it was about putting America back to work but the theme was let's demonize Hillary. Not content to disagree with Hillary's policies or decisions, they spent the evening chanting "Lock her up!" A lot of fact-challenged accusations. Mitch McConnell is a slimy bastard. Paul Ryan is a world-class faker.

Boy that Baby Donald is a piece of work. Smirking, smarmy, shifty, arrogant, entitled. He has an odd bird-like tic of turning his head to regard you with first one eye and then the other. Ew!

 

[t-dub]

I sorta assumed you felt that Obama had partaken of plagiarism.

As they say never assume . . . I voted for Obama, twice.

MY point was that you're using false equivalencies.

Actually I didn't, it was the article Gunky posted, so that is why I spoke about those examples specifically. I read what you guys post here, and the supporting articles, because I am always open to learning something new. I thought it was interesting that these were in the same article that was talking about Melania's speech but no one had mentioned it. Forgive me for trying to bring a little balance here and for trying to have an intellectually honest, non partisan, discussion.

As I have said before, I am a political atheist and don't like either side. I understand that this might frustrate some people because its hard to tell where I'm coming from and I don't really fit into the boxes or preconceived notions that some folks have. Truth be told I lean Libertarian however that party is far from being viable. Did you see their debate and the rejects they had on stage? It was a total freak show.

1988 WAS a quite a long time ago

Maybe, but it still happened so we have an example on both sides. I know you disagree with this and that is your prerogative. As an older person 1988 doesn't seem that far back to me. Anyways, If you want more recent examples then I encourage you to look for them. Like I said before, its going to be very interesting when the comparison of the themes and language used by several of the last first ladies comes out. The analysis will either mitigate this situation a little bit or it will add more weight to the fact that Melania, or her speech writer, really screwed up. Like I said before, what happened really screws the Trump campaign because if they blame the speech writer then that counters their claim Melania wrote the speech. Its either that or Melania has to be solely responsible for what she wrote/said and own it.

 

[grokit]

"Enough of the “Us vs. Them” binary: Why I’m writing in Bernie Sanders on election day
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump strike me as dishonest and untrustworthy, so I refuse to vote for either of them"

Bernie will be voting for Hillary.

Donald Trump doesn't "strike me" as dishonest. I KNOW he's dishonest because I can disprove dozens of things he's said.

I don't think someone should be castigated for how they "strike" someone, if the writer thinks Hillary is dishonest and untrustworthy, then they should display the cojones to state how specifically. And when that's done, the end product had better be more substantial than ANYTHING the eight Bengazi hearings produced.

Clinton has worked in public service for decades, always as a Republican lightning rod, yet most of what they've thrown at her seems to wind up sticking to them.

"dishonest and untrustworthy" was actually a link in the article I posted, that led to this article:

Poll: Hillary Clinton Least Honest And Trustworthy Of All Presidential Candidates

"Republican candidate Donald Trump beat Clinton in the trustworthiness category by four percentage point. Democratic candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders is seen as overwhelmingly more honest and trustworthy than Clinton. Sanders beats her by a margin of 32 percentage points."


much more here:
http://dailycaller.com/2016/02/17/p...d-trustworthy-of-all-presidential-candidates/

 

[Gunky]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...e_obama_s_speech_is_a_legitimate_scandal.html

But come on, stern-faced finger-waggers of America. The wannabe first lady of the United States told a massive prime-time audience “that you work hard for what you want in life,” a phrase one of her speechwriters seems to have copied wholesale from the current first lady, the wife of the man Trump calls “the worst president in U.S. history.” It is astonishing that this happened here, on our home planet. It is amazing and unfathomable and world-historically ironic. It is a moment to be cherished forever, not waved away like some D-grade campaign gaffe. The RNC’s chief strategist is defending Melania Trump by quoting from My Little Pony!

 

[lwien]

Like I said before, what happened really screws the Trump campaign because if they blame the speech writer then that counters their claim Melania wrote the speech. Its either that or Melania has to be solely responsible for what she wrote/said and own it.

Or...........she co-wrote it with the help and input of speech writers. I don't believe that she said that she wrote the whole speech by herself without input.

I don't think it's as black and white as you're presenting it, t. There's a bit of wiggle room there.

 

[t-dub]

I don't believe that she said that she wrote the whole speech by herself without input.

I thought thats what the Trump campaign initially claimed but I could be wrong.

I don't think it's as black and white as you're presenting it t. There's a bit of wiggle room there.

No doubt you are correct. The news stories hitting the wires are now referring to a "team of writers" and that there were last minute changes. The New York Times published an article 2 hours ago that has a lot of conflicting quotes from many sources. Some say she wrote it with as little help as possible, others speak about teams of writers or two former GWB speech writers or that a speech writer did it and Melania had nothing to do with it . . etc . . .

A million shades of gray with lots of finger pointing which confuses the issue completely. It seems some people are bending the situation to fit their personal agendas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/20/us/politics/melania-trump-speech.html?_r=0

 

[ReggieB]

I saw the interview where she made the claim, with trump standing next to her, with him smiling like she's allowed to talk for herself, she absolutely 100% made the claim on camera that she wrote the speech herself with very little help. There is no confusion, she definitely said the words.

 

[lwien]

"with very little help" are the key words here thats allowing a bit of wiggle room for her.

 

[ReggieB]

She's an intelligent woman who can speak 5 languages, I suppose proof reading the most important speech you'll ever give in english isn't one of them? I wonder what wiggle room you think there is? The fact that her husband likes to slate Obama but her wife like's to quote his wife because they share the same family values? 'Look at us, we're the same...'

 

[lwien]

I wonder what wiggle room you think there is?

The wiggle room to state that this was put in by the speech writers and that she never saw or heard Michelle's speech. It's definitely plausible.

But the way this has been handled by their campaign manager has been atrocious.

 

[gangababa]

From the only people in the world who actually KNOW what it takes to be President of the USA

 

[ReggieB]

The wiggle room to state that this was put in by the speech writers and that she never saw or heard Michelle's speech. It's definitely plausible.

But the way this has been handled by their campaign manager has been atrocious.

It might be plausible if it was anyone else but team trump doesn't deal with truths or fact. If there hadn't been wall to wall obfuscation from the start of his campaign continuing on through, if this speech had been at the start of the campaign it could've been brushed off as a faux pas but this isn't an isolated school boy/girl error, it's the latest in a list of stuff...

 

[Gunky]

 

[CarolKing]

I didn't like Chris Christie's really hateful speech. Then the chanting from the crowd "lock her up" in between sentences, where there is usually applause. It was kinda scary IMO.

Hopefully the Democrats can use a bit of intelligence and talk about the important issues. Show the American people who the grown up party is. Especially in this time in history where we need someone who can make the important decisions. Not someone that acts like a spoiled baby that cries when he doesn't get his way. His temper tantrums are ridiculou and I for one am tired of them.

Gary Johnson is at 13%.

@ReggieB i find sometimes I need to look up some of the words you are using.

Edit
Finger pointing in the Trump Campaign I heard and a total meltdown yesterday due to the Melania speech. They are still saying no plagiarism.
Today is a new day.

 

[cybrguy]

There are many many people and organizations in the world who honestly deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to honest mistakes or inadvertent errors not meant to muddy the waters. Often entities exist who have shown honesty and cooperation and altruistic aims that suggest to us that we should leave a little wiggle room for unforced errors due to their general positive contribution to the narrative or even to society at large.

Somehow I just don't think the Donald Trump for President campaign is one of those trustworthy organizations. Call me lacking in magnanimity (or maybe gullibility) but Donald Trump and his minions somehow just don't inspire generosity of spirit from me.

 

[lwien]

Then the chanting from the crowd "lock her up"

Yup....it almost reaches into the realm of inciting violence. Made me really uncomfortable and btw, if the same thing happened on the Democratic floor against Trump, I'd feel the same way.

 

[ReggieB]

@CarolKing It's only english, except the french bit

 

[ReggieB]

Yup....it almost reaches into the realm of inciting violence. Made me really uncomfortable and btw, if the same thing happened on the Democratic floor against Trump, I'd feel the same way.

After however many inquiries all ruling in hillarys favour, there is nothing else to call it but a witch hunt, along with the name calling it debases the level of politics that you can achieve. The media latched on to the validity of trumps wifes speech, when the real talking points were the inflammatory views overtly on display at the republican convention, it makes you wonder if the media actually want trump as president?