The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
In my state most high school juniors can take college courses in the afternoons for free. They can get an AA degree shortly after graduating from high school. It depends on their grades and attendance. This has been going on for many years. It's a state program.

Edit
The medical insurance for low income folks is state run too. They get the money from the Feds.
 
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cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
I think anything that can help to improve the level of education of our citizenry is a positive and is worth doing, even if there is cost to it. We are poorly educated compared to many other industrialized nations and that is a bad thing that we must work on. It definitely interferes with our ability to compete, and it leads to our having to go overseas to hire technical workers.
Making college free or inexpensive is a great first step. The next is to encourage everyone to take advantage of it...
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
Maybe its my age, or maybe its a lack of progeny, but until I can build some confidence that we will survive the next decade, I'm done worrying about some nebulous future America that we may never see. Sorry if I sound like Debbie Downer, but the political reality of America today scares the shit out of me. That someone like Donald Trump has a serious chance to actually become POTUS is astounding to me, and not in a good way. We need to worry about what is right in front of us, or our future planning may be nothing but a waste of effort.

I think your sentiments are at the core of where I differ with so many as of late. I'm not voting based on my fear of something. I'm voting based on my hope for something.

I don't see you as a Debbie Downer. Your concerns are real. In my head it plays out this way....
- If I were to vote AGAINST Trump I would probably vote for Hillary. Even with all the polls showing Bernie could beat Trump my gut tells me Hillary would be a better choice for voting AGAINST Trump. Just to be clear...this wouldn't be a vote for Hillary so much as it would be a vote against Trump.
- If I were to vote FOR a candidate it would be Bernie.
 

grokit

well-worn member
aba18190a132013334e9005056a9545d

:party:
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
I think your sentiments are at the core of where I differ with so many as of late. I'm not voting based on my fear of something. I'm voting based on my hope for something.
I get your point and I don't disagree. Fear IS part of my calculation. But it isn't the fear the Republicans are ginning up. I'm not afraid of Mexicans, or Muslims, or Syrian refugees, or black people, or the Ayatollah, or The President.

I'm afraid of STUPIDITY AND IGNORENCE. I'm afraid of Americans falling for the lies they are being told by the Republican candidates. I'm afraid of American giving in to fear and making terrible mistakes with our future that may be difficult or impossible to turn around. I'm afraid of republicans convincing low information voters that climate change is a hoax. I'm afraid of America ignoring MOTHER NATURE HERSELF when she generates earthquakes to warn us of how stupid fracking is. I'm afraid of the IDEA THAT MONEY IS SPEECH!

So, YES, I have fear. But my fear is generated by reality, not by bigotry.
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
So if it can't be done NOW it's not worth doing or not worth trying to make it happen. Let me know when we do have the time and inclination for the dreamers or even those who may take longer than 'now' and we can discuss it again.....if there's time.
I didn't say anything like that -read it. You drew a conclusion: either you go for total pie in the sky or you only care about short term. Yes the president should if possible inspire and help generate future progress. That is still only a part of the job. You guys are acting like Bernie can sit in the White House or tool around making speeches and that's good enough, job well done. I'm sorry, but we can't afford to sit around while repubs die off. You can't name a single program proposed by Bernie that can be enacted in 4 years. If so let him be poet laureate and let us have someone hands on for prez.
 
Gunky,

howie105

Well-Known Member
IME there is space for everyone to come to a decision about who is their favoured candidate is. I am even happier if it is a considered choice even if I disagree with it. Conversely I am often disappointed when someone agrees with a position I support just because the herd is running in a particular direction. A thinker can often see when a chosen path is incorrect while dogma inspired believers often don’t.
 

CuckFumbustion

Lo and Behold! The transformative power of Vapor.
Stephen Colbert brilliantly imitates Hillary Clinton’s sense of entitlement

Totally shooting from the hip here. Not responding to anybody elses points. Just a small piece of my own. Sample what you like. Sorry, I have no counter arguements left in me atm.

Sanders may have enough lofty ideas that draw people together, Yes. But at some point he has to have a road map or a strategy to implement his policys under a possibly belligerent or unreceptive congress. Sure, I expect infighting and the other side of the iasle. Simply telling the other side they have been 'wrong' won't cut it alone.

He can implement some of his policys during the 'honeymoon' period. Thought some may argue on how brief that would be and how the rest of his term would play out. There are other things that can be done by a stroke of a pen by Executive order. The current RNC has imploded for some people. I don't hear from too many of the old guard RNC in the news. What little I do hear is negativity towards the current parties candidates. Even a few core republicans and libertarians are looking at his positives.
Anti-cronism capitalism, Auditing the Fed, and removing the war on drugs could be where the consensus could be. If Bernie is willing to compromise like he has in the past to get legislation done. I'm not entirely sold on the notion that he is a pure ideologue. He has been in the beltway long enough to know the game.

People are already savvy to some of the tactics of theirs from the last Administration. And they got called out on it a lot. Stonewall tactics will make headlines this time around. And the RNC is having that history already tarnish the current prospects. The 'devil you know argument' for this election doesn't have the same impact when two radicals are running and their are more informational tools for the average person to research for themselves. We are seeing more of that impact and fact checking this election more. Sadly reality TV also came to the stage as well to wash all the gains we have with the information age.

Keep in mind I'm saying all these things and I have no intention of voting for Sanders. My district will vote for Bernie. And I need to familiarize myself with what the locals are thinking. :peace:
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
I didn't say anything like that -read it. You drew a conclusion: either you go for total pie in the sky or you only care about short term. Yes the president should if possible inspire and help generate future progress. That is still only a part of the job. You guys are acting like Bernie can sit in the White House or tool around making speeches and that's good enough, job well done. I'm sorry, but we can't afford to sit around while repubs die off. You can't name a single program proposed by Bernie that can be enacted in 4 years. If so let him be poet laureate and let us have someone hands on for prez.

I'm not so sure I misinterpreted your original post. I do tend toward being overly literal so it's not impossible.

Nobody can name a single program proposed by anyone that can be enacted in 4 years. You can name some that have a better chance but nobody can name one that is guaranteed. Including Hillary. Did I miss it when everyone in congress pledged allegiance to the Hillary? If Bernie doesn't win the primary and Hillary does I'll vote for Hillary but I'm not holding my breath for her to be treated any better than Obama where opposition and gridlock are concerned.

With the above in mind....My vote is too precious to me to 'settle' for voting for someone with nothing more than 'a better chance of passing something'. Especially when I want something more comprehensive to begin with.
 

Joel W.

Deplorable Basement Dweller
Accessory Maker
I am thinking about all the really big and small things both parties have done during my life and before it. I don't think any of them were easy or quick.

ACA (universal health care) for example has been tried since the 1930's or earlier, as I can tell and it's still not where it needs to be, but it's a start.

Bill Clinton tried and failed to pass the health security act (Hillarycare) in 93' but it got us thinking about it more.

"Fall 2008: Presidential candidate Barack Obama says, “On health care reform, the American people are too often offered two extremes — government-run health care with higher taxes or letting the insurance companies operate without rules. … I believe both of these extremes are wrong.” Obama wins the presidency a week later.

Jan. 1, 2014: The bulk of Affordable Care Act changes go into effect with the new year. "

It has flaws, but I think it helps more people than it hurts. It can be fixed I hope..

"Big things have small beginnings."
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
The Donald Trump of the Supreme Court. Every single republican candidate wants to block Obama from doing his critically important job of replacing him on the court. What a surprise...
-------------------------
Scalia’s Boring Legacy
I was determined yesterday not to comment on Justice Antonin Scalia’s legacy on the Supreme Court, choosing to focus instead on the political implications of the vacancy. I remain committed to that, in large part because the man only barely passed away and I feel that anything I might say about his impact on law, culture and jurisprudence would be tinged with inappropriate (?) negative passion I might later regret.

Fortunately, I don’t have to. Back in 2014 here at Washington Monthly, Michael O’Donnell wrote a fantastic book review of Bruce Allen Murphy’s “Scalia: A Court of One,” that says most of it for me, and then followed that up with an excellent bit today. From the book review:

Somewhere in the mid-2000s, Scalia ceased to be a powerhouse jurist and became a crank. He began thumbing his nose at the ethical conventions that guide justices, giving provocative speeches about matters likely to come before the Court. He declined to recuse himself from cases where he had consorted with one of the parties—including, famously, Vice President Dick Cheney. He turned up the invective in his decisions. His colleagues’ reasoning ceased to be merely unpersuasive; it was “preposterous,” “at war with reason,” “not merely naive, but absurd,” “patently incorrect,” and “transparently false.” More and more, he seemed willing to bend his own rules to achieve conservative results in areas of concern to social conservatives, like affirmative action, gay rights, abortion, gun ownership, and the death penalty.

Above all, Scalia stopped trying to persuade others. He became the judicial equivalent of Rush Limbaugh, who has made a career of preaching to the choir. But Limbaugh is not merely a shock jock; he is also a kingmaker. Scalia’s position on the bench precludes any such influence. As a result, he has more fans than power.
And from today:

I will remember Scalia mainly for the ugliness that permeated his opinions. He once wrote with astonishing callousness that it is not unconstitutional to execute an innocent person if that person has received a fair trial. He described affirmative action as “racial discrimination,” and mocked the notion that it could help students achieve “cross-racial understanding.” (No one squeezed more sarcasm out of a quotation mark.) A devout Roman Catholic, Scalia harbored a particular scorn for “the homosexual agenda,” writing in a paper-thin third-person: “Many Americans do not want persons who openly engage in homosexual conduct as partners in their business, as scoutmasters for their children, as teachers in their children’s schools, or as boarders in their home. They view this as protecting themselves and their families from a lifestyle that they believe to be immoral and destructive.”

Scalia had been slipping lately. He made a spectacle of himself before journalists, flipping his chin at them and giving needlessly provocative speeches. He openly flouted the Court’s recusal traditions, going on a hunting trip with Dick Cheney and then refusing to recuse himself from a suit against the vice president. He engaged in an unseemly public spat with Judge Richard Posner, going so far as to call Posner a liar after Posner panned Scalia’s latest book. The invective in his opinions and his behavior at oral argument had become truly outrageous, and caused many a citizen to associate the Supreme Court with cheap partisan point-scoring. It has been a long fall for what had been one of the most trusted institutions in government.
The conservative movement is trying to treat Scalia as a giant of law and one of America’s greatest and most influential jurists. I’m not so sure about that. His position on the court and his votes in some crucial 5-4 decisions have obviously made a gigantic impact, but it’s not at all clear that his arguments will have had generations-long precedent-carrying weight. Particularly toward the end of his career he simply became a reliable tool of retrograde social conservative orthodoxy and corporate power. Scalia ceased to be interesting because you always knew exactly where he would stand, and that every year he would say something eyebrow-raisingly nasty and clueless about evolution, the sexual revolution or some similar topic. In that sense, I would argue that John Roberts has actually been more interesting and influential recently because one can at least speculate on potentially unconventional arguments and stances he might take.

In the end, what many characterized as Scalia’s incisive wit and questioning simply became boring, because it was always in the service of the same agenda, rendering it devoid of truly honest insight. Scalia simply became as boring as your conservative uncle at Thanksgiving. As O’Donnell says:

Scalia’s fall has been loud and it has been public. He is the Court’s most outspoken and quotable justice, and whether he is flicking his chin at reporters or standing at the lectern attacking secular values, he makes headlines. So when he was passed over for the position of chief justice in 2005, the legal world noticed. President George W. Bush had cited Scalia as well as Clarence Thomas when asked as a candidate to name justices he admired. Yet when Rehnquist suddenly died, Bush did not seriously consider elevating Scalia. “Nino” had rarely demonstrated leadership in assembling or holding together majorities; he had alienated every one of his colleagues at one point or other. His flamboyant antics off the bench might compromise the dignity of the office of chief justice. He would be the devil to confirm. Bush nominated instead John Roberts, an equally brilliant but far more disciplined judge, and one who was better suited to the responsibilities of leadership. After that, Scalia stopped playing nice and started using real buckshot.
I understand and can sympathize with how upset conservatives are about their loss and about the potential for the shifting of the ideology of the court. But let’s not pretend that the court lost a legal giant on the level of Brandeis, Holmes or Marshall. It didn’t.
by David Atkins
 

Adobewan

Well-Known Member
There seems to be a bit of a "if you don't agree to vote for Hillary, you're uninformed, or too young, or too naive" vibe from some of our Hillary supporting brethren.
Politics may be the most polarizing of topics.
I know very well educated professionals, authors, screenwriters, art directors, teachers, etc, that are diehard Republicans. These are close comrades, and I cannot fathom it, and I cannot reach them on this. While the ball-breaking gets quite deep, I wouldn't seriously suggest they're lacking less intelligence or experience than I. I know they, somehow, see this from a very different emotional place.

I confess, I don't quite get Hillary-love but it's out there. I could see being middle of the road on her, but I don't understand the strength of belief that this politician is so right for the country.

But as progressives, I would think that you could understand the craving for a candidate like Sanders in your peers. That there would be more understanding that many of those peers may see Sanders as the way toward fixing our future.
They too are educated and experienced, and I'm not sure they deserve the hint of condescension in the perpetual Hillary marketing.
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
There seems to be a bit of a "if you don't agree to vote for Hillary, you're uninformed, or too young, or too naive" vibe from some of our Hillary supporting brethren.
-snip-

Well are you surprised when people tout a candidate not for what he can actually achieve during his term in office but because they want to 'send a message' and even though they can't imagine their candidate getting any actual results from his policies in the real world within a four year term? (The ACA, by the way, was passed in Obama's first term in office).

Some of us want more than a symbolic gesture for a president.
 
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Gunky,
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Gunky

Well-Known Member
I have a hard time believing Clinton is going to have it any easier passing, anything.

The GOP's hatred of the Clintons, goes way too deep.
Let's compare issue by issue, shall we?

Bernie says single payer health care. Clinton says tweak Obamacare. Which has a better chance in congress?

Bernie wants free tuition in public schools. Clinton says lets figure out ways to reduce student debt. Which has a better chance of passing?

....

On almost every issue it's the same thing. You have an aspirational candidate with goals that are unobtainable and another with wonky real-world solutions that just might work.
 
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Gunky,

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
Some of you that are strictly for Hilary, would you vote for Bernie if he became the democratic nominee for president or just not vote.

Edit
@macbill you always make me laugh. That fucking dress. I remember on the nightly news talking about the stained dress night after night. Linda Tripp, Monica Lowinski's friend had the dress with "the stain". Where the hell is that dress now? Before you know it they will be having it hanging in the presidential history museum if the damn republicans get into office.

I ended up erasing where I had said about voting republican from up above.
 
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cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
February 13, 2016 10:39 PM
The Latest GOP Debate Was an Embarrassing Nightmare for the Party

Anyone seeking evidence that the Republican Party is a rotten institution on the verge collapse and disarray needs only watch the last GOP debate in South Carolina. It was less of a debate than a nasty professional wrestling brawl, an ugly spectacle reminiscent of a violent online video one is ashamed to watch but from which one cannot turn away.

It’s hard to identify who specifically made it the horrific trainwreck that it was, or what the worst moment was. Was it the audience, so obviously stacked with loud and raucous Rubio and Bush establishment supporters behaving like extras from a medieval stage play pit that it confirmed all of Donald Trump’s attacks on debate audiences and even led Ted Cruz to get in on the anti-audience attacks? Was it Donald Trump, who behaved not only incredibly rudely but may have actually gone far enough against GOP orthodoxy as to self-destruct with GOP voters? Was it Ted Cruz, who lied non-stop throughout the debate? Was it Jeb Bush, who kept trying to assert his masculine authority on the stage in a nasty way, yet found himself continually cut down by Trump in an even uglier show of locker room politics? Maybe it was all of the above.

Was the worst moment when Ted Cruz encouraged the audience to boo the moderator simply for telling the truth about a historical fact? Was it when Donald Trump (rightly!) insisted that George W. Bush was responsible for letting us be attacked on 9/11 and for invading Iraq knowing that there were no weapons of mass destruction—but not because he was genuinely offended about the loss of lives involved, but rather because he found it a convenient way to insult Jeb Bush’s family? Was it when Ted Cruz accused Marco Rubio of being too compassionate on immigration, pushing Rubio to tell Cruz that he couldn’t understand what he said on Univision because he didn’t speak Spanish, only to have Cruz challenge him (in Spanish!) to a debate in Spanish? Was it when Trump accused Jeb Bush of being weak simply for saying that immigrants are here to trying make a better life for their families? Was it when the supposedly “moderate” Kasich accused Jeb of the crime of growing Medicaid too much?

It’s hard to know. I’m still in a bit of catatonic shock after sitting through it. I know that the GOP debates are targeted to hardcore Republican primary voters, but even so it’s hard to believe that there is a single persuadable voter watching tonight who would want any of these candidates to become President. It was just that ugly.

And I’m not the only one. Commentators across the spectrum of Republican politics agreed that the evening was a complete disaster.
Frank Luntz had this to say:
https://twitter.com/FrankLuntz
Seriously, this is insane.
The GOP is destroying itself tonight, and they have no one to blame but themselves. #GOPDebate

And here’s Glenn Beck:

Kasich is using the same peacemaker rhetoric as in every debate, but tonight it is working. This debate is an embarrassment. #GOPDebate

Probably the most compelling moment of the debate was when Trump hit the Bush Administration over 9/11 and Iraq. It might just be the final straw that pushes core GOP voters away from Trump. But it’s also important to note that Trump has said many of the same things before without much consequence, nor is it entirely clear that GOP voters have a strong emotional vested interest in defending the Bush Administration on those issues.
If Trump did hurt himself badly, then Ted Cruz will likely be the beneficiary. If not, then nothing much will change in the poll numbers.

But one thing is for certain: the Republican Party embarrassed itself badly tonight. There is no clear center of gravity within the party, its frontrunner is openly contemptuous of essential parts of its orthodoxy, and its brand is marked by open extremism, cruelty and ugly bickering. No major political organization can long survive like this.
 

macbill

Oh No! Mr macbill!!
Staff member
Some of you that are strictly for Hilary, would you vote for Bernie if he became the democratic nominee for president or just not vote. Or would you vote republican.

Sure, I'd vote for Bernie. It's just I have less faith in the American people to vote for B as well. But I'm old, and now, perhaps, people are no longer afraid of the word "Socialist", which many folks associated with "Communism" back in the day. To me, I'm afraid of the less-informed Independent listening to the loonies out there bleating Cold War Warnings. Expect The Domino Theory being dragged out.
 

Joel W.

Deplorable Basement Dweller
Accessory Maker
On almost every issue it's the same thing. You have an aspirational candidate with goals that are unobtainable and another with wonky real-world solutions that just might work.
I am ok with the odds on either actually, but mostly right now, I like that my country (even for the moment anyways) is choosing hope over more of the same.
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
In what was the most aggressive, most cutthroat debate yet, all five candidates - excepting the somnolent Ben Carson - upped the anger ante in the presidential race. Here’s what we learned:

  • Trump has clearly been advised that bullying Jeb Bush is a vote-winner; he spent a large amount of his overwhelming speaking time slamming the former Florida governor with the political equivalent of pushing his face in a toilet-bowl of his own campaign finance history and shouting “you gonna cry? you gonna cry?”
  • Ben Carson used a quote from Stalin - about it being a “healthy body” that in order to destroy “you have to undermine three principles: their spiritual life, their patriotism, and their morality” - that appears to be utterly and entirely fabricated.
  • If Marco Rubio could speak to any historical president, it would be - surprise, surprise - Ronald Reagan.
  • Donald Trump supports Planned Parenthood - at least in part - and is willing to say so in a televised Republican debate, which is pretty much unprecedented.
  • Jeb Bush said he’d moon someone, but it is relatively unclear whom, and whether he ever went through with it.
  • Ben Carson wants you to go to his website. He said this at least five times.
  • “Jeez, oh man,” as spoken by John Kasich, is about as accurate a summary of the current Republican primary as we’re likely to hear, and is likely to become a catchphrase.
  • Ted Cruz doesn’t speak Spanish. At least, according to a comeback smackdown by Marco Rubio, which the Texas senator didn’t deny.
  • 9/11 is still just as strong an issue in this campaign as it ever was; mainly because of Bush’s line that his brother “kept us safe,” and Trump’s rebuttal - repeated several times, that “the World Trade Center came down on [George W’s] watch.”
 

Chill Dude

Well-Known Member
Dirty Hillary the money taker. She really needs to step out of the race at this point.

Naw, she's my dirty girl... Imperfect as she is, I'll stand with Hilary 100% if she in fact becomes the nominee. Hilary comes with baggage, but truth be told, she is tough as nails and is one hell of a politician. Trump, Cruz and Rubio represent decline of the western civilization and must be stopped at all costs!!
 
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