The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

[Tranquility]

Did you even read the article you posted? Have you noticed that Charity Navigator also gives the Clinton Foundation the highest rating they give (4 out of 4 stars) at overall 94.74 out of 100?? I don't really get where you're going, but have fun...

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=16680

To the claim:
"Considering the fact that it’s now clear that Trump has used his foundation as a slush fund to hide income, avoid taxes, make illegal political contributions, spend other people’s money to falsely make himself look like a philanthropist and to give himself gifts, I can’t imagine that he will want to provide the New York attorney general with “all the financial audit reports it should have provided in previous years.”"

I pointed out:
"At least a greater percentage of Trump's foundation goes to charitable purpose over the Clinton foundation preferred "executive compensation" and "other salaries and wages". (In addition to the Clinton family, think Sidney Blumenthal and other names you've heard associated.)"

And supported the claim by referencing the facts from propublica. I encourage the reader to review the information and come to his own conclusion as to which of the above claims most fits known facts.

 

[TeeJay1952]

https://www.clintonfoundation.org/about/frequently-asked-questions

 

[ClearBlueLou]

If the 2006 law is not followed, the unfunded pension of the USPS would be about $100 billion by the end of the decade. Because of the USPS declining revenue, there will be even less available for the post office to fund its retirement fund to the same levels required of other funds.

Cite ANY REPUTABLE SOURCE for the notion that unfunded USPS retirement indebtedness will amount to 100 BILLION in 4 years.

Second, there is NO OTHER ENTITY to my knowledge that has ever been subjected to the retirement-funding requirements forced onto the post office, public or private. I'd LOVE to hear your argument for gutting / hamstringing the post office in such a unique manner.

The real debate gets to the core of the issue. Who should pay for a person's retirement?

REALLY? You think THAT is THE core issue? Even *A* core issue?

The willingness for the "patriot party" to deliberately sabotage a constitutionally-mandated function is FAR more important in my mind than any amount of hand-waving. It doesn't make them MORE hypocritical, but it sure leaves them less to hide their bullshit behind when they're pulling their 'great and powerful Oz' schtick

 

[grokit]

 

[Tranquility]

Cite ANY REPUTABLE SOURCE for the notion that unfunded USPS retirement indebtedness will amount to 100 BILLION in 4 years.

Second, there is NO OTHER ENTITY to my knowledge that has ever been subjected to the retirement-funding requirements forced onto the post office, public or private. I'd LOVE to hear your argument for gutting / hamstringing the post office in such a unique manner.


REALLY? You think THAT is THE core issue? Even *A* core issue?

The willingness for the "patriot party" to deliberately sabotage a constitutionally-mandated function is FAR more important in my mind than any amount of hand-waving. It doesn't make them MORE hypocritical, but it sure leaves them less to hide their bullshit behind when they're pulling their 'great and powerful Oz' schtick

1. It is currently underfunded by $86.6 billion. https://www.uspsoig.gov/blog/be-careful-what-you-assume
2. There is no other entity quite like the post office. Its years of misfeasance requires a drastic fix. It is too bad it was not dealt with far earlier.
3. Um...yea. I'd love to know how much of my money you need as I need some too.
4. Constitutionally mandated? "The Congress shall have Power"..."To establish Post Offices and post Roads;" I'm sure we will agree having the power to do something does not mean one must do that thing. You must mean the *statutes* that give universal service requirements to the post office (Deliver to all.) and the quasi-monopoly of first class mail. Statutes are laws passed by Congress and signed by the president. Just like the 2006 law requiring the increase in funding to retirement to assure the best chance of paying retirees without a public bailout for the private promises of USPS management.

 

[gangababa]

O goody, I get to use my ACLU pocket Constitution of the United States of America.
Article 1, Section 8, "Congress shall have the power to...establish post offices and post roads..."

Let us see what else is on the "Congress shall" list and consider whether those too seem to be optional, like some say the Post Office is:

power to lay and collect taxes
pay debts
provide for common defense
establish an uniform rule of naturalization
coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin
fix the standard of weights and measures
punishment of counterfeiting
punish piracies
provide for calling forth the militia*
(and finally one that congress has in fact given up and that is why you need vote the ruling party out)
declare war

Now if any among USA (us all) are willing to argue that the founding fathers were not gods and did get some things wrong and we need to correctly reinterpret the Constitution for the times, and privatize, and sell off the commons (then there will be no need for armies of common defense), and generally ignore the constitutionally mandated words..."provide for the ...general Welfare of the United States..." I will gladly join the 2nd amendment removal committee.

*see 2nd amendment

Curiously "shall" is also used elsewhere like in Article 7 about how bills become laws. . I suggest people read it and other "shall" use in the Constitution to see how 'optional "shall" is.
There are many "no state shall" restrictions in the constitution, are these also optional shalls?

 

[CarolKing]

There is a new thread dedicated to USPS, should it be privatized? It's over in the Lounge. You can include all the pension and retirement stuff. If you paid into something you should get something back.

Oh goody, I hope nobody is babysitting or trumpsitting during the debates. We want him acting like an idiot if he's tweeting. That's when he gets in the most trouble. Ha ha ha.

If you want to follow the action at Tuesday night's vice presidential debate but would prefer to watch, say, the Orioles-Blue Jays in the American League wild-card playoff game, you're in luck: Donald Trump will be live tweeting all the action.

The Republican presidential nominee tweeted that he would be watching his running mate — "the great Governor @Mike_Pence" — square off against Virginia Sen. Tim Kaine, Hillary Clinton's vice presidential choice, and would call the action on his favorite social media platform.

Edit
Tim Kane should say some things to really piss off Trump - but not in an obvious way.
I can't stand to listen to Mike Pence. At least Trump I can laugh at. Trump was so hilarious at the last one. All the sniffing and drinking water. Remember how Trump was making fun of was it Rubio drinking water during the RNC debate?

 

[gangababa]

When @CarolKing started this thread, the numerous nattering nabobs of negativism, plus Sanders and Clinton were all subject to vetting.

At this point in time the Presidential election is reduced to one duality. Only one thing matters now, and the two candidates are not the issue nor the problem USA (us all) have.

What matters now are not Clinton and Trump.
Now the voters matter!

This not insignificant November decision will be made by people who vote, regardless of their sanity.
Some voters are reasonably based in reality, even admitting that all realities are colored by our identity preferences. These people can accept correction.
These voters can make rational choices.

There are other voters, however, who are not rational, do not live in the USA shared reality, and project massive subjectivity, clouding their view of USA (you know, some of us-all are radical-queer-atheist-trans-everything, un-American @sses), such subjectivity that they truly live in a fecklessly fact-free world of pure imagination and conspiratorial angst.

Two such voters submitted as evidence of the deplorable disconnect that exists almost exclusively on the wrongly-named right.
How does one relate to those who see a Candidate as God given, even as Jesus.
This is only 45 seconds of the longer following

Here is the full five minutes, if you re not convinced by their religious fervor.

 

[Msek]

All four candidates

The Candidates' Views on America's Top 20
Science, Engineering, Tech, Health & Environmental Issues in 2016

 

[CarolKing]

Twitter went nuts yesterday because Trump said soldiers with PTSD are weak has pissed off a lot of people. He continually puts his foot in his mouth. This comes from a man who avoided the draft in the 1960s because he had bone spurs on his heels. Regular folks didn't have a choice, he had a rich daddy.

 

[grokit]

I just voted today, in our local/state election. Our little hamlet is an unincorporated part of our state's largest borough (county), and they are trying to make cannabis illegal even though it was completely decriminalized at the state level. So even if it passes, it will be tied up in court. But what's interesting is that the sponsoring organization (using alcohol/pharma $) didn't do any campaigning whatsoever. It's like they are counting on stoners not even being aware that there's an election, in order to limit turnout to churchgoers and pta members. Because they have no evidence to support their position.

I voted against it of course, but in favor of the separate local taxation proposition so they can get addicted to the cash. I was torn on that part, but that's one of the lawsuits so blah blah blah they'll figure it out but it's safe to say that the will of the statewide voters is not being respected by the local political actors.

Of course they were able to blanket public radio with scary anti-pot reefer madness the night before (no fairness doctrine), at dinnertime no less. It's about the kids! But it makes me realize once again that facts and evidence are secondary to emotional talking points in america, no matter what political level we are at. Regardless of what they are talking about, pence seems like a guy that can run a country; this is because he is more telegenic than kaine, who seems more like a lapdog in comparison. Pence looks and sounds scarily "presidential", and he could be the one running the country on drumpf's behalf which is even scarier.

 

[lwien]

Pence won that debate. Will be interesting to see if it moves the polls at all.

 

[grokit]

This "debate" was a disgrace

There wasn't one question about the role of money in our elections, or citizen's united. Not one question about global warming, while we continue to frack and break new temperature records every summer, and about which the defense department along with bernie have called our biggest national security risk. Not one question about brexit or globalism, two side of the biggest economic issue of our time. We're told it's about how scared we should be of each other, while the world burns and the bankers loot what's left of america.

No one to vote for that's against continuous global warfare; the military-industrial complex wins again.

How about assange/wikileaks, the surveillance state, and our unlawful treatment of whistleblowers

I could go on, and on...

 

[CarolKing]

I noticed that both MSNBC and CNN say that Pence won the debate. What I didn't like about Kane was he kept interrupting. I got tired of Pence saying, "Trump didn't say that." Yes he did, we all heard Trump say it. They both had their strong and weak points IMO.

I don't like the fact that the Republicans want to take women's abortion rights away. The young women in America better vote because if something drastic changes in the Supreme Court their abortion rights will be gone. Men that affects you too.

Mike Pence helped Mike Pence. He's too much like a minister. I don't like being preached to.

I don't think Pence really thinks Trump can win.

Edit
I'm not getting into an abortion argument in this thread or any other. The thread wouldn't last very long. It's a very personal decision. I stand beside of a woman's choice to choose to have a baby or not. Most women agonize with the decision whether to have an abortion. It's usually not decided without a lot of careful thought and mental stress. What about the years of quilt that many women feel. It's not a decision that comes easy.

For myself I'm too old to have children but couldn't imagine if I hadn't had the choice to either have a choice or not when I was younger. Luckily I never had to choose.

 

[yogoshio]

I don't like the fact that the one right that actually grants us access to all the other rights we have isn't acknowledged. It nullifies the rest (ie, what choice does a pregnant woman have to make, if that pregnant woman isn't granted the right to make it to that point), whether directly or indirectly, and I wholeheartedly believe that's why we have slowly, slowly handed away more and more rights since the passing of RvW.

Which, from specifically within the scope of legal arguments, is about as strong as Bill Dole's dick. Outcome of the law besides, it was like pulling pure water out of horse piss. If you don't believe me, you can read Justice Balckman's clerk:“As a matter of constitutional interpretation and judicial method, Roe borders on the indefensible. I say this as someone utterly committed to the right to choose. … Justice Blackmun’s opinion provides essentially no reasoning in support of its holding. And in the … years since Roe’s announcement, no one has produced a convincing defense of Roe on its own terms.”

And I know the source of the site is biased, the quotes are still accurate and verified, but all of which attest to the same awful arguments.
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/12/20/even-abortion-backers-admit-roe-vs-wade-was-a-terrible-decision/

 

[gangababa]

I just voted today, ...

But it makes me realize once again that facts and evidence are secondary to emotional talking points in america, no matter what political level we are at. Regardless of what they are talking about, ...

Thank you for voting. More voters (Democratic Party plan), not fewer (Republican Party plan), will be of advantage to USA (us-all).
The number of excessively subjective people (bad choice voters) is necessarily always to be a limited minority, else "Idiocracy" - becomes - real - rather than - movie (four links).

The subjectivity (strongly held belief) of which I speak is behind the tendency toward emotional rather than mental reactivity in our worldly transactions. Those who persist in disproving gravity because they want to fly, continually fall down.

Objectivity is an attitude/ awareness of one's place in a larger shared space within the reality of scientific orderliness. Objectivity is not a world where one's deepest fears bounce off the walls built by oneself from the bricks of desires, aversions and ignorances, that subject one to the slings and arrows of outrageous (mis)fortunes.

Added edit

...

I don't think Pence really thinks Trump can win.

...

I suspect Pence knows that winning with Trump will guarantee the destruction of his future political plans.
He needs Trump to lose so he can run in 2020.

 

[BD9]

. Regardless of what they are talking about, pence seems like a guy that can run a country; this is because he is more telegenic than kaine, who seems more like a lapdog in comparison. Pence looks and sounds scarily "presidential", and he could be the one running the country on drumpf's behalf which is even scarier.

He does seem gubernatorial and presidential that's how he got elected here. Don't believe it. Don't believe the fake humble farm boy routine. He's a polished politician. He's also a bigot and religious zealot.

Bigot/Zealot: Passed one the most repressive and oppressive RFRA laws in the country. The law opened the door for legal discrimination against homosexuals. While my state was under going one the largest HIV outbreaks in the country pence was asked about needle exchanges and said, "I need few days to pray about it".

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/31/politics/indiana-backlash-how-we-got-here/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progre.../pence-prayed-allowed-hiv-outbreak-to-spread/


In recent interviews, local, state and federal health officials said Mr. Pence initially held firm. So as they struggled to contain the spread of H.I.V., the officials embarked on a behind-the-scenes effort over several weeks to persuade him to change his mind, using political pressure, research and pleas for help from this remote, poor community.

…more than two months after the outbreak was detected, Mr. Pence said he was going to go home and pray on it.

Two days later, he issued an executive order allowing syringes to be distributed in Scott County.

 

[CarolKing]

I think David Alexrod has a real valid point that Donald Trump just has too much conflict of interest with his business. Especially because he won't release his tax statements. Who knows who Trump owes money to and what countries could be involved? That's a topic that needs to be asked of Trump repeatedly until he answers. Anytime the Clinton foundation comes up those questions needs to be asked of Trump.

 

[lwien]

I wonder what the ratings were, like, how many people watched it? The answer to that will be the answer to how much the polls move............if at all.

 

[BD9]

Tim Kaine needs to hit the vape and leave the Red Bull alone. I was disappointed with his performance. Mike Pence performed as I thought he would.
I don't think either did enough to sway undecideds or change anyone's mind. There were no "gotchas" or "zingers" in my opinion.
Kaine missed some opportunities to hit Pence on several occasions. One being the HIV outbreak and Pence's lack of leadership and delay in acting. Pence mentioned his motto 'Indiana Works'. Kaine should have hit him on the $400 thousand Pence spent on having that motto put on a building in downtown Indy.
Kaine also should have hit Pence on the loss of convention and tourism dollars lost because of his push for the discriminatory RFRA bill. Estimated losses are between $60-100 million dollars in lost revenue. Not to mention the hundreds of millions he spent suing the federal govt. Yet he calls himself a fiscal conservative.

I have protested in my state capital and local cities against many of Pence's faith based and unjust policies. This man is a disgrace and hides behind religion to make policies that have hurt my friends, family and my state.

 

[psychonaut]

Kaine looks like an angry person, I didnt find him likeable. I dont care for pence either, but pence clearly remained calm and seemed to be a lot more composed.

So why cant we have a presidential debate like what the religious and scientific community has where there are no interruptions and the moderator has full control? The past two debates both moderators got walked all over by these alphas.

 

[cybrguy]

Pence won that debate. Will be interesting to see if it moves the polls at all.

I don't think it will. VP debates rarely do and while I agree that Pence looked better (and thereby won) he has developed this tendency to lie just like Trump, and that is sad.

If wants to be the "moral" man next to Trumps amoral bigot, he blew that, though his quieter countenance and Race Bannon look help him a lot with folks who don't pay much attention to what he is actually saying.

If you score the debate on facts and meaningful points, Kaine won easily, but that isn't how we score debates today. And Kain's manner was aggressive and anxious compared to Pence's calm refusal to defend Trump, so Pence easily won the "presidential look" aspect.

 

[RUDE BOY]

So why cant we have a presidential debate like what the religious and scientific community has where there are no interruptions and the moderator has full control?

The Commission on presidential debates doesn't follow the same model of debate that's so common in academia, they just seem to enjoy putting on chaotic shit shows instead.

 

[cybrguy]

The Commission on presidential debates doesn't follow the same model of debate that's so common in academia, they just seem to enjoy putting on chaotic shit shows instead.

Because they are all about ratings, whereas the academics are trying to impart information. Two wildly different goals.

I just wanted to add that this debate wasn't all bad for Dems. We got to hear about a lot of issues the main card have not talked much about that need to be discussed. This was a much more typical Dem vs Rep debate and that is necessary too. We don't want personalities to be all we're dealing with...

And we also got to see more of Kaine's commitment, and that is frankly quite positive from my view. I think he is very capable of being President should it ever become necessary. He is a very smart cookie, and that is not a universal quality in this election.

 

[His_Highness]

I think Kaine was deliberately set up/asked to perform the way he did and that the decision to hammer away at Trump's previous indiscretions/statements was the point from the start. I think he was asked to be more aggressive in his approach because the VP debate isn't that important but someone needed to aggressively state the Trump-king has no cloths. There wasn't nearly enough of what Kaine did during the HRC/Trump debate and I think he was asked to pick up the slack so HRC could take the high road Sunday. It's not like Pence or Trump can complain loudly about Kaine's performance without hitting Trump twice as hard in the comparison. Plus there was no podium which ascetically makes it more appropriate to interrupt like that. Sitting is so much less.......presidential than standing at a podium.

It was a bizzarro world debate in that Pence was acting like HRC and Kaine was acting like Trump. I didn't like the interruptions but on a debate point stance I thought it was effective.