The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
To chill people about the coming election I have been pointing out that Trump only (!) got like 14 million votes in the primaries, and needs like 60 million to win the election. I just can't imagine there are that many votes for Trump!

That won't stop my effort to stop him, but it is a little reassuring...
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
I wouldn't chill anyone out @cybrguy.
Many people need to be chilled, @His_Highness. Stress can make people sick, and many people can not function well under stress. There is nothing people can do to take Trump out of the news and if there is a moment when cameras are NOT focused on the Donald, he will do something stupid, racist, ignorant, or just plain silly to turn those cameras back around. People, especially those predisposed to stress illnesses, MUST have a way to reduce that stress or they may end up in a terrible space mentally, and for many, physically.

I am not proposing that we back off or stop working to make sure Trump fails, but I DO encourage many folks, particularly those most vulnerable, to not let this campaign be the driving force in their lives. That is extremely unhealthy for many of us, and you may or may not be able to vote from the psych ward...
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
When we would first leave and head out to sea everyone seemed to behave as one united group. Sailors would all sit down together and have chow and would be hanging out with mixed groups. This situation of unity, however, did not last. I would say that after about 30 days at sea the crew would divide up into racial groups. You could go into the chow hall and the people were divided up into their racial sections.
Pardon me if it offends you, but your Commander sucked. It is completely foolish to allow this kind of segregation on a battleship. It is the responsibility of the command to be sure that the crew works together at all times, and allowing them to segregate at mess is foolish, as it will never be just as mess.

I have never served in the military, so if this seems naive to you I can understand that. But ANYTHING that allows a crew to stop working together only works against those things most important in combat, and any command that is allowing that is working against very important psychological cohesiveness.
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
There was a man executed in Iran that was supposed to have been a spy for the U.S. Some of Hillary's email had named him. He was a type of a double agent. I hope this doesn't cause problems. I don't want any votes going over to Trump.

Iran Says It Executed Nuclear Scientist in US Spy Mystery - ABC News
abcnews.go.com › wireStory › iran-nucle...

Is it a coincidence that it's coming out now? There's some significance here I think.

Can't make deals with the devil, meaning Iran.
 
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CuckFumbustion

Lo and Behold! The transformative power of Vapor.
..and if capitalism is failing what about our sausage democracy? Is it in its dying days? What then? Maybe then Libertarianism will jump in and save everyone?
You sold me on 'sausage democracy.' :D The shoe fits. but to answer your question. I don't think we need a savior, a billionaire man child, or necessarily a Libertarian, just a good administer. Business will always have a pulse on the goings on and the stock market responds in kind. Just getting everybody on the same page is a big enough challenge ATM. If The Federal government shows some fiscal discipline and telegraphs where the changes will be made, then we can start playing for the long game instead of the short term.
Sorry @stema, but I'm having trouble trying to get with what this Paul Craig Roberts is directly addressing? :bang: It feels like a rough outline than anything sort of clarity on the issues. I'm not letting his theory of supply side economics cloud my judgement. Truly want to know the crux of his discussions(?).

If American's wish to defeat racism they will need to dig deep and be willing to reach out to the other, over, and over again until it takes. We do not need to be a racist nation but it is going to take a conscience effort and very, very, hard work. Even for those of us who feel we are not racist need to try harder to make things better.
:nod: Precisely, And there will be challenges ahead and those very awkward social moments in between, much like you experienced.:ugh: It helps to be receptive then aggressive. Also, Be prepared to grow along the way too and have others reach out to you. :peace:
 

YaFreekin Right

Well-Known Member
Are you sure about that? Because you are completely wrong again and here is why.

People feel more comfortable among their own kind. Animals are the same way. People are going where they feel most comfortable and this type of segregation is natural but is also the roots and origins of racism.

Racism happens when people feel so much more comfortable with their own kind they are willing to reject others because they are from a different race.

I think it is entirely how one is brought up. If you are brought up with many different cultures & races, it's entirely normal to mix in those groups.

When you say people/animals feel most comfortable among their own kind you realize we are all homo sapiens.
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
Pardon me if it offends you, but your Commander sucked. It is completely foolish to allow this kind of segregation on a battleship.

It was not a battleship. It was a carrier.

I have never served in the military, so if this seems naive to you I can understand that. But ANYTHING that allows a crew to stop working together only works against those things most important in combat

There was no mention in @steama 's post that indicated that the crew did not work together. A crew can work very well together without necessarily socializing together. Hell, just look at the dysfunctional rock bands where members hate each other yet when they get together to play music, magic happens. That may be an inappropriate analogy, but I think in this case, it applies, eh?

You cannot FORCE unity.

True, but you can encourage it. I would hope that if your officers ever got a sense that their crew was not working together, that they'd be all over that shit.

Racism is a natural tendency that reside within people.

I agree. It's in our tribal DNA that goes back to our very primal traits and it takes constant vigilance to overcome it.

Are you sure about that? Because you are completely wrong again and here is why.

People feel more comfortable among their own kind. Animals are the same way. People are going where they feel most comfortable and this type of segregation is natural but is also the roots and origins of racism.

Racism happens when people feel so much more comfortable with their own kind they are willing to reject others because they are from a different race.

And at our very core, we are animals as well but unlike other species, we do have the ability to consciously overcome our natural tendencies, eh. We just need to fucking working at it and not succumb to something that at one time in our distant past, was necessary for our survival.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
Are you sure about that? Because you are completely wrong again and here is why.

People feel more comfortable among their own kind. Animals are the same way. People are going where they feel most comfortable and this type of segregation is natural but is also the roots and origins of racism.

Racism happens when people feel so much more comfortable with their own kind they are willing to reject others because they are from a different race.
Every single point you made is incorrect. First, your "comfort" is not something generated by your genes, it is created in your social milieu. You learn what is socially comfortable and what is not.
Put a bunch of 2 year olds of different races in a room and measure how they gather. They certainly DO NOT gather based on race. Race only becomes an issue for them when someone teaches that it is. Just like politics.

In a field full of cows of different colors, do you find them gathering with the brown cows in one place and the black cows in another? Of course not. Neither will you find that in horses or goats or dogs or any other animal group that vary in color.

Sorry, Steama, wrong on all counts.

This is my last post on this subject, but don't take my refusal to engage any further as agreement. It is not.
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
There are ways to change a channel, to turn the dial on the radio, and even a way to go to a different website. Even people with mental conditions are able to do these things.

If people are getting sick from political coverage they need to get a grip and do something different for their healths sake.


You are naive, extremely. You cannot FORCE unity.

You are clearly clueless as to this situation but that is ok. You really do not need to understand but it is too bad you missed the point of the story.

Racism is a natural tendency that reside within people. Right or wrong, good or bad, the facts are the facts.

@steama, When I was in the Navy, over 30 years ago, I experienced similar situations BUT my experience wasn't quite as segregated. We all slept in unsegregated cabins and we ate together in unsegregated galleys and we worked side by side. Some galley tables were all black, all Filipino, all white, all Hispanic, all southern white, all northern white, all mixed and all whatever. The one group that spent more time together than the others were the Filipinos but I think the language barrier had a lot to do with it. They just seemed more comfortable talking in their native language. Which is primarily why I refused to play cards with them :lol:

It was common when going overseas for everyone to go out together....no segregation. It was outside the ship IN THE US that the segregation was more noticeable. I spent much of my military stint in the south which may have a bunch to do with it. When we were in the US and heading out for a night on the town.....it was mostly segregated. Having been brought up in multi-racial locations up north I was pretty surprised and taken aback by it. Not the way I wanted it to be but the few times I suggested otherwise it was made clear that I wasn't welcome were some folks were going and some folks wouldn't feel comfortable going where I was going. There were exceptions like the time WE ALL went to a disco that catered to the all orientations including the LGBT community. That place was one of a kind back then and everyone, no matter the color or sexual orientation had a blast for several months until the place got closed down.

@cybrguy mentioned he didn't serve so his naivete is to be expected. The captain of the ship(s) I served on had nothing to do with whether someone decided to socialize on-board or otherwise and with whom. They only get involved when the military goals were in jeopardy or the morale (not to be confused with 'moral') was at stake. It wouldn't have been well received and would have been counterproductive to the military goals to force something along these lines if the job is getting done.
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
I wonder if race is taken into consideration when putting together a crew for subs.

Excellent question considering the stress involved. Wish I knew the answer. I applied for sub duty after I was assigned to a deep south chief petty officer who was still fighting the civil war. He took an instant dislike to me when I reported for duty and said 'How yous guys doin' instead of 'How ya'll doin'. The guy literally told me he didn't like my northern mouth within 5 minutes of meeting him. He rode me pretty hard and even worse after I requested the sub assignment. Long story short....he put his hands on me and it took 3 people to drag me off him. They sent me to another ship but denied my sub duty request because I didn't seem to have the calm demeanor they were looking for.
 

Snappo

Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!"
Accessory Maker
I have also been a keen observer over the years at how folks of different ethnicity, all very familiar to each other over time, assemble and congregate themselves among tables and halls when left to their own volition. Invariably, in the instances that I have observed, regardless of situational context, birds of a feather, so to speak, DO flock together. I would not classify this necessarily as a form of racism, but it does invite social phenomena and nature vs. nurture questions... at least it does for me.
 
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His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
Here's one that is a counter argument......the elevator experiment where the first four people getting in one, who don't know each other, always take the corners. Doesn't matter if they are all from the same race or not :p

So who's running for president again?:freak::myday:

In honor of my friend @grokit and because I have gotten another thread derailment firmly applied beforehand :lmao:

What's all this talk about the downtrodden middle class that all these politicians are going on about?!?! How about another counter argument? Here ya go!

http://www.uexpress.com/scott-burns/2016/8/7/the-almost-half-full-glass

A new study, however, suggests something different. It shows that the big growth is in people who are "upper middle class" and "rich." Those who are "middle class," "lower middle class" and "poor or near poor" are actually shrinking as a percentage of the population. More people are moving up than moving down, not more people moving down than up.

Surprised? I was too. It's definitely not the conventional wisdom.

Yet the study comes from the Urban Institute, a think tank more inclined to worry about the poor than celebrate the rich. Stephen J. Rose, the author of the study, is an accomplished labor economist with a Ph.D. from City University of New York.
 
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cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
I have also been a keen observer over the years at how folks of different ethnicity, all very familiar to each other over time, assemble and congregate themselves among tables and halls when left to their own volition. Invariably, regardless of situational context, birds of a feather, so to speak, DO flock together. I would not classify this necessarily as a form of racism, but it does invite social phenomena and nature vs. nurture questions... at least it does for me.
While I would disagree with the "invariably" part of that statement, I would certainly agree that that is what we DO in the America, sad as it may be. But I don't think there is anything organic or intrinsic about it. That is what we are taught to do; that is what we LEARN to do.

Among my friends and other folks I know who have children, sex role socialization is fairly easily apparent. The families with girls that want to be firemen and cops and scientists, and the boys may like dance or teaching or cooking tend to be the families where girls didn't just get barbies and magic ovens and the boys guns and dump trucks. They were not pushed in a socially determined direction. The kids were allowed to choose their own direction.

Anyway, sorry, I said I was done with this, but it IS very interesting to see peoples views.
 
cybrguy,

Snappo

Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!"
Accessory Maker
Here's one that is a counter argument......the elevator experiment where the first four people getting in one, who don't know each other, always take the corners. Doesn't matter if they are all from the same race or not :p
^^Upon entering an elevator when accompanied by other riders, I naturally gravitate to a corner in order to give space to others who have either entered along with me and/or for whomever may enter on another floor. Just as naturally and without any preconceived forethought as in my elevator example, I open doors for others, no matter who and no matter the circumstance - all out of courtesy and consideration for others - without expectation for same in return. I also recognize that each individual has specific needs for personal space, so giving a wide berth to anyone until social conventions give way to shared acceptable comfort levels is probably best.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
Hmmmm... Naaa...
http://washingtonmonthly.com/2016/08/07/america-coming-together/
America Coming Together

by D.R. Tucker
August 7, 2016 3:30 PM

In the name of stopping Donald Trump, will Mitt Romney formally endorse Hillary Clinton?

The prospect of a Romney endorsement of the Democratic nominee should not be considered far-fetched. The 2012 Republican nominee surely must know that it might not be sufficient for him to denounce the Donald; if he seriously wants to convince those on the fence that Trump should not become the 45th president, he may find the urge to pull a Colin Powell (or a Meg Whitman) irresistible.

A Romney endorsement of Clinton would be one of the more shocking moments in recent American political history. On some level, it would represent Romney’s unofficial apology for palling around with the prejudiced agitator in 2012. Romney may be too proud to acknowledge openly that he was wrong to beg for Trump’s approval four years ago, but if he were to endorse Clinton, many Americans disgusted with the Donald would forgive Romney’s past transgressions.

A Romney endorsement of Clinton would also reaffirm the point President Obama made in his speech at the 2016 Democratic National Convention: that Clinton, not Trump, is closest to the mainstream of American politics and culture, that Clinton, not Trump, embodies our country’s best values, that Clinton, not Trump, will make America even greater than it is today.

In her review of Obama’s outstanding speech, Heather Digby Parton observed:

There is evidence that [the 2016] election may end up finally dislodging the white, college educated demographic from the GOP, which has won them since the time polling first began. Many of them can see that Trump is dangerous. Last night was an invitation from the Democratic party for them to leave the dark side and come into the light…

If Romney endorsed Clinton, it would signal that it would be OK for Republicans to accept the Democratic party’s invitation, at least this year, at least this time. Remember the key argument Obama made in his speech:

What we heard in Cleveland last week wasn’t particularly Republican – and it sure wasn’t conservative. What we heard was a deeply pessimistic vision of a country where we turn against each other, and turn away from the rest of the world. There were no serious solutions to pressing problems – just the fanning of resentment, and blame, and anger, and hate. And that is not the America I know.

To be fair, Romney has fanned “resentment, and blame, and anger, and hate” himself over the years. He has also done his fair share of Clinton-bashing. However, as former New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg suggested at the Democratic convention, one doesn’t have to like everything about Clinton, or Democrats, to recognize the difference, in terms of qualifications, between Clinton and Trump.

Of course, Romney may endorse Clinton with ulterior motives. He may want her to win now just to see her lose in 2020. He may enjoy condemning her over the course of the next four years, going on and on about how she has disappointed him, nitpicking every last decision she makes to grease the skids for a more palatable Republican candidate to take the oath on January 20, 2021. To paraphrase Nick Nolte’s famous line from 48 Hrs., even if Romney endorses Clinton, they won’t be partners and they won’t be friends.

However, they won’t need to be. A Romney endorsement of Clinton would benefit both individuals. It would allow Romney to redeem his legacy, to confirm himself in history as a man who recognized the danger of extremism in a time of consequence and stood against it. In addition, it would allow Clinton to make further inroads into the voting demographics she needs to offset the damage done by the Supreme Court’s gutting of the Voting Rights Act, which may reduce the number of Democratic-leaning voters who are able to cast a ballot for her (the recent positive voting-rights rulings in Texas, Wisconsin, North Dakota and North Carolina notwithstanding).

One can easily envision a commercial in which Romney holds his grandson Kieran, stating that Trump’s explicitly racist views will create a world in which his grandchild’s life will not matter, a world in which hate will be honored and love will be loathed, a world that would produce pain and poverty for the public, a world that offends the values of his faith. In that commercial, he could state that his differences with Clinton pale in comparison to his issues with Trump, and that making sure the bigoted billionaire doesn’t win is a moral obligation.

It would be powerful stuff. The only question is, would it be enough?
 

Snappo

Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!"
Accessory Maker
While I would disagree with the "invariably" part of that statement, ...
I have edited that part of my statement to clarify with personal qualification. "Invariably, in the instances that I have observed, regardless of situational context, birds of a feather, so to speak, DO flock together."
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
Didn't Mitt Romney win the 'Mr. Insignificant' award this year?
Well, he certainly didn't get anywhere with trying to replace Trump, his clearly stated goal. But he STILL was the last Presidential candidate from their side and would provide some cover for republicans who are looking for "permission" to vote against their party.

Whatever that may be worth...
 
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