The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil :2c:
What would you suggest then? A little late in the game at this point. If you want change that starts early on. It's time for the wise to gather the wagons together.

I'm going to do everything I can that Trump isn't the next president in my little part of America. Do you what this ass with his finger on the button?

I can't risk Trump becoming president. I can't live in an America with Trump in the highest office of our military. He's going to change the Constitution serve his own needs. That's sounds like a dictator to me.
 
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His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil :2c:
What I'm getting at is that if you don't vote for the lesser of two evils, the most evil one has a better chance of winning. Why would anyone want that?

The issue, like most issues, is not black and white here but rather shades of gray, eh, or to put it another way, it's not a good or bad choice here, as we would all much prefer, but rather a less bad choice.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend......... and Trump is my enemy and Hillary is Trump's enemy.
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
And your point is.....?

What I'm getting at is that if you don't vote for the lesser of two evils, the most evil one has a better chance of winning. Why would anyone want that?

The issue, like most issues, is not black and white here but rather shades of gray, eh, or to put it another way, it's not a good or bad choice here, as we would all much prefer, but rather a less bad choice.
Speak for yourself. The choice is between a very bad, authoritarian, xenophobic bigot and flim-flam man and another person whom Barack Obama the other day declared the best prepared candidate for the presidency ever. Between a total asshole on one side and on the other a long time progressive voice who is actually for pretty much all the same basic things Bernie is for. One of these days Bernie will get around to mentioning that.
 
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His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
The enemy of my enemy is my friend......... and Trump is my enemy and Hillary is Trump's enemy.

Please don't misunderstand the above quote.....Given the choice between voting for Hillary or Bernie I would vote for Bernie.....but if it came down to only Hillary versus Trump the quote above stands.
 

grokit

well-worn member
I'm not saying hillary is the next hitler; I really hope she's not because even if she's indicted first, she will be our next president and by extension, leader of the free world. But she is undeniably the biggest hawk left in the race, and she has a history of being the biggest advocate for our perpetual, indiscriminate bombing, invasions, and occupations, of people of color. If you think drone strikes are surgical, go see good kill (true story); they're not. I also think that saying the unabashed racist is more racist than the warhawk is a stretch, because if I dismiss the talking heads, what I see is a blustering grifter that will say the most racist things to get attention; but talk is just that. It's the one who's actions are categorically more evil and racist that I have the harder time voting for. Not to mention that if she does get us into real trouble with her aggressive international hegemony and the usa suffers for it, I will be able to say that I did not take part. Hopefully I am wrong, but because my vote is only symbolic anyways, I will cast it for bernie sanders.

edit: back to the two horses still racing; the one with the lowest body count is the fascist grifter :uhh::disgust:!
 
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BD9

Well-Known Member
Libertarians = Each state's right to be as bigoted as it wants to be without Federal interference

Some libertarians are for people to be able to marry who they want in a state that grants that right.
It is the rest of their ideology that is suspect. They do not want the federal government involved in protecting civil rights nationally.

Thanks for this. I saw, and @psychonaut pointed out they support marriage equality, but they still wanted
Rand Paul as their candidate. Rand Paul is very much against marriage equality and feels that religion should play a role in government. It seems very contradictory to me. As do many of the things in the list you posted.

I wonder if we should start a separate thread for Libertarian discussion?
 

Farid

Well-Known Member
I don't blame you, Farid. I just don't understand it, purely from a logical point of view.

We KNOW that the overwhelming odds are that there will only be two possibilities here to occupy the whitehouse. Why does it not make sense to vote for the lesser of two evils?

I do not believe that Hillary is the lesser of two evils. I think both are equally as evil (these things can hardly be quantified), but because of the demographic they pander to, they say different things. My opinion is that Hillary is worse for this country because she would push the democrats further right, versus Trump winning, causing a backlash from the left.

Trump is evil for the things he has said, but he did not vote for the Iraq war, then lobby for a war in Libya, then Syria. I don't think people who made that terrible decision (and who refuses to own that decision) should be able to hold office. Period.

And yes, I think Trump has a better plan to deal with Iraq and Syria than Clinton. It's not a great plan, but involves going after ISIS instead of the Syrian government. There is nothing more backwards than attacking the sovereign government fighting ISIS, while simultaneously funding rebels who have no chance of creating any form of governing system besides Sharia.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
Speak for yourself. The choice is between a very bad, authoritarian, xenophobic bigot and flim-flam man and another person whom Barack Obama the other day declared the best prepared candidate for the presidency ever. Between a total asshole on one side and on the other a long time progressive voice who is actually for pretty much all the same basic things Bernie is for. One of these days Bernie will get around to mentioning that.
I don't happen to think that Hillary is the best possible candidate for President, but she is highly experienced and very capable, and I think she will make a good President. But she could be 10 times worse than she is and still be 100 times more qualified and better for the office and the country (and the world, really) than Donald Trump. And those are the only 2 "candidates" that have any chance of becoming President at this time.

It is an easy choice, it seems to me. It stuns me a little it isn't easy for most of us.
If you think drone strikes are surgical, go see good kill
Somehow you have missed what real war looks like. If you compare what the US does with drones to what Russia does with attack aircraft or what Syria does with barrel bombs I think your statement looks pretty silly.
 
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Snappo

Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!"
Accessory Maker
I do not believe that Hillary is the lesser of two evils. I think both are equally as evil (these things can hardly be quantified), but because of the demographic they pander to, they say different things. My opinion is that Hillary is worse for this country because she would push the democrats further right, versus Trump winning, causing a backlash from the left.

Trump is evil for the things he has said, but he did not vote for the Iraq war, then lobby for a war in Libya, then Syria. I don't think people who made that terrible decision (and who refuses to own that decision) should be able to hold office. Period.

And yes, I think Trump has a better plan to deal with Iraq and Syria than Clinton. It's not a great plan, but involves going after ISIS instead of the Syrian government. There is nothing more backwards than attacking the sovereign government fighting ISIS, while simultaneously funding rebels who have no chance of creating any form of governing system besides Sharia.
I have no idea what plan Trump-a-big-dump has for anything... does anyone? He has no plan as far as anybody knows except to hire so-called experts to do his thinking and bidding. And he's not just hiding a full house up his sleeve in secrecy and veil of unpredictability as he would have everybody believe in cover of his ignorance. All he ever says and does on the podium is beat his chest and spit "biggly" stupid pronouncements e.g., "a big wall", "no Muslims allowed", "crooked Hillary", blah blah blah and baby puke. Trump doesn't have even a microscopic clue what to do about ISIS, Iraq, or Syria. He couldn't show you what their geographic location was on a map or tell you their capitals. And just because he claims he wasn't in favor (he had no vote) of the Iraq war, who really knows where his head was at at the time, if on the topic at all or if he could've even cared less. Same for wars in Libya and Syria. If he did happen to pick up a newspaper at the time those issues were most prominent and then make public comments about them, he did so only because his ambition to run for president was already firming up. Purely self-interest. He's nothing but a phony huckster. I don't care much at all for Hillary, but by comparison to the horned one with reptilian scales, I'd much rather have my finger poised on the impeachment button than on the trigger of a pistol were one or the other needed outing.
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
My opinion is that Hillary is worse for this country because she would push the democrats further right, versus Trump winning, causing a backlash from the left.

If your opinion is that Trump is less evil, why not then vote for him?

My initial question was not geared towards just Hillary supporters but rather everyone.

If one truly believes that they are totally equal without one even having a slight edge over the other, than yes, not voting makes sense but in my experience, I don't think I've ever run across anything or anyone that are totally equal with one another. There just seems to be too many variables going on, even though the variables may be slight, for equality to enter the picture.
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
I see the point of posts claiming...... Hillary did 'X' which is wrong and Trump has never done 'X' so I see Hillary as the a worse choice or at the very least an equally bad choice.

The above strikes me as flawed logic because Trump hasn't had the chance to do 'X' or anything else for that matter. I'm more afraid of Trump than Hillary because while I find Hillary disingenuous.... I believe she responds to the masses when the voice is loud enough to cause her to deal on the basis of enlightened self interest. Trump on the other hand would not hear the masses, is not enlightened in any way, he feels above it all/smarter than everyone and would deal strictly on self interest and ego.

@Farid - you are correct that Hillary's voting record sucks when it comes to armed conflict but saying Trump is better in this area because he didn't vote similarly is a mistake until he has the power/chance to vote for the trigger. Trump scares me because he is the antithesis of the phrase 'Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me'. There is no doubt in my mind that mere words, pointed at him and his ego, would be enough for him to pull the trigger.

Here's another couple of quotes that IMO fits - If it comes down to just Hillary versus Trump....

I'm voting for the best house in the bad neighborhood.

I'm voting for the devil I know (Hillary) versus the devil I don't know (Trump).

I'm not voting for Hillary...I'm voting against Trump.

And for those of my fellow Bernie Brethren who imply they won't vote for Hillary if Bernie drops out.....for the love of all things vaporize-able...PLEASE STOP MAKING ME SIDE WITH HILLARY in these recent posts....I can't eat my lunch and gag at the same time like this!
 

BD9

Well-Known Member
Here are Trump's policies, "Shut up!". "Do You know who I am?!". "Do you know how smart I am?!". "Pocahontas!". "Look at my African American over there!". "I bet you would look good on your knees".

I admit I'm an original Bernie Brother as some of us have been dubbed, but Hillary is getting my vote.
 
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Silat

When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.
It's funny, the same tired "hold your nose and vote" for somebody you don't like sentiment is just as strong on both sides. So whenever a Hillary supporter gets on my cause for not "holding my nose" and voitng for her, I chuckle and think to myself, that's exactly what's gotten Trumps so far, people holding their nose and voting for him because they see him as the only option against Clinton. I see it in my gun owning friends, who hate Trump but hold their nose and vote for him because of Clinton's anti gun crusade. I see it in my Muslim friends who vote for Trump because they are conservative, despite Trump's anti Muslim rhetoric.

So instead of blaming people like me who did not vote for either shit candidate, maybe blame the mainstream voting masses for forcing you to choose between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

And maybe consider voting Libertarian even if you don't agree with everything they stand for because the issues Johnson and Sanders disagree on have much less an impact on the globe than the issues they agree on. I know a lot of Libertarians who supported Sanders while he was strong, and if Sanders drops out, it would be a huge show of unity if Sanders supporters support Johnson instead of Clinton of Stein. I'm trying to convince my father that since I voted for his candidate, Sanders, in the primary, that if Sanders drops out he should vote for my candidate, Johnson, in the general. He wants to vote for Jill Stein, but my argument is that either vote is a throw away vote. It means more if one candidate can take those numbers and at least show that their cause has momentum. I think Johnson's message is much broader in the sense that it appeals to all Americans, versus Stein's approach of only appealing to the fringe left. If anything that's the one thing that made Sanders special to me. Despite being far left he appealed to the right, much like how Johnson appeals to the left.

If you do not believe in government then by all means vote libertarian.

 
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Silat,

Silat

When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.
I do not believe that Hillary is the lesser of two evils. I think both are equally as evil (these things can hardly be quantified), but because of the demographic they pander to, they say different things. My opinion is that Hillary is worse for this country because she would push the democrats further right, versus Trump winning, causing a backlash from the left.

Trump is evil for the things he has said, but he did not vote for the Iraq war, then lobby for a war in Libya, then Syria. I don't think people who made that terrible decision (and who refuses to own that decision) should be able to hold office. Period.

And yes, I think Trump has a better plan to deal with Iraq and Syria than Clinton. It's not a great plan, but involves going after ISIS instead of the Syrian government. There is nothing more backwards than attacking the sovereign government fighting ISIS, while simultaneously funding rebels who have no chance of creating any form of governing system besides Sharia.

Drumpf said he wants to let other countries have nukes.
Hillary did not vote for war either.
HIllarys Vote On Presidential Authority for Bush
Hillary "voted for war" is a very simplistic description of her vote.

The things she said on the floor of the Senate matter:

Hillary:"Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first, and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President as his word that he will try hard to pass a U.N. resolution and will seek to avoid war if at all possible.

Because bi-partisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore war less likely, and because a good-faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause.

If we were to defeat this resolution or pass with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those that want to pretend that this problem will go away with delay, will oppose any U.N. resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I've ever had to make. Any vote that might lead to war should be hard. But I cast it with conviction.

My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption or for unilateralism or for the arrogance of American power or purpose, all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law, and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war, it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President. And we say to him, use these powers wisely and as a last resort."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...tical-regret-iraq_us_5718ccf0e4b0c9244a7aed6a
 

Farid

Well-Known Member
The thing is Hillary didn't just make that mistake once. She supported war in Libya and Syria after knowing how much a failure the war in Iraq was. I'm sorry but I have to judge a person by their record, and Hillary's record is worse than Trump because she has had her chance to change, and she still tries to push for foreign intervention.

I won't vote for Trump, but I certainly won't be bullied into a vote for Hillary because imo she is not the lesser of two evils. Her decisions have already caused tremendous damage around the world.

And in the event Trump's foreign policy is just as bad as Clinton's, at least his callousness will put light on the fact of how bad it is. Clinton veils her hawkishness, which is incredibly dangerous because it means less people are vocally against it.

@Silat if you think Hillary didn't vote for war you are not remembering her role as secretary of state, when she disagreed with Obama about how to deal with Libya and Syria. She called for intervention in both cases... intervention is war.
 

TeeJay1952

Well-Known Member
@Farid You hold that vote. When you see the right candidate cast it. I hope you get to use it in your lifetime.
I don't want to to feel ignored or marginalized .....Please report with your candidate. Not just everyone sucks because life is hard and we know that.
 

HellsWindStaff

Dharma Initiate
This cracked me up.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/741311272818475008?lang=en

I will 90% be voting for Trump in November. There is still time for me to change my mind. I would rather gamble on the unknown variables of Trump.

She's mucked up too much in the past for me to trust her with my vote. Yes Trump is inexperienced, yes he is a racist, but I am more comfortable gambling on him, then "the establishment". Hilary is more experienced..........but the system is so corrupt. I don't want someone whose a part of that. Trump, at least to me, isn't. Bernie would of been too.

Also, I find her incredibly unlikable. That's a personal opinion, but she literally makes my skin crawl. Maybe because I've always been a "white man" (I'm Palestinian too... identify as white), but the racism of Trump doesn't bother me nearly as much as thinking about the families of the people killed because of Hilary's incompetence. I also think she is a huge hypocrite, it's her right to maintain whatever marriage she wants, and its' her right to malign the character of whatever interns she wants. But, yes, parade for women's rights, Hilary, you "narcissistic loony toon" .

Trump has his demons too. I just personally find Hilary very distasteful. And I don't find Trump as unlikable. I think some of Trump's policies are idiotic, but I also think Hilary has some idiotic positions too. So, who do I trust more? Idk. Gary Johnson? That's a throwaway vote.

You wouldn't hire a home repair guy with a history of being a crappy home repair guy. Avoid the "devil you know" and take the chance on something new. At least that is how I am viewing it.

Edit: The Drumpf thing IMO is so....... "We're all for promoting equality and acceptance!!! All lives matter! Donald is a racist!!! Let's call him by his European name!! That will be insulting!!!" LOL. What's the point here? Should he be insulted that his family used to have a different name before they moved to America? And, isn't that espousing the same racisim Donald is guilty of?
 
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grokit

well-worn member
If you compare what the US does with drones to what Russia does with attack aircraft or what Syria does with barrel bombs I think your statement looks pretty silly.
Okay, let's compare what the usa and its allies like saudi arabia and isreal are doing with attack aircraft.
:worms::horse: :rip:
 

Farid

Well-Known Member
@Farid You hold that vote. When you see the right candidate cast it. I hope you get to use it in your lifetime.
I don't want to to feel ignored or marginalized .....Please report with your candidate. Not just everyone sucks because life is hard and we know that.

I'm not sure I follow your post.

But I'm voting for Gary Johnson, if you're asking. I think he's the most level headed "presidential" material.
 
Farid,

TeeJay1952

Well-Known Member
Would I hire someone I would have to monitor or take a chance on new guy who exhibited professional and personal lackings because he might be OK?
Nope I want competent crook who I am watching.
 
TeeJay1952,

Farid

Well-Known Member

If you even read that article you'd see that the guy who stripped is "less enchanted with party presidential nominee Gary Johnson and vice presidential nominee William Weld."

So that guy isn't even a big supporter of Johnson (though he apparently likes showing his own). I'm not sure if bringing that was an attempt to make Johnson look like a nut, but I'd still rather vote for him than Clinton.
 
Farid,

Silat

When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.
I do not have to think about it. I posted the facts about her vote. It was not for war.
Intervention is not war.
 
Silat,

Farid

Well-Known Member
I do not have to think about it. I posted the facts about her vote. It was not for war.
Intervention is not war.

So intervention is bombing miliary targets, deploying special forces, using artillery, etc. but it's not war? What constitutes war then?

Does there have to be an official declaration of war? If so, you'd have to agree that Korea and Vietnam were not wars, but "interventions".

Kissinger and McNamara and the likes used to say that Vietnam was an "intervention" to stop South Vietnam from falling to the communists. Intervention is just a euphemism for war.

At least McNamara had the sense to come around and oppose the Iraq war when it came around, and to regret some of his involvement in the war in Vietnam....
 
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HellsWindStaff

Dharma Initiate
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