Proposed changes to Canada's Medical Marijuana laws

[tdavie]

Mods, please leave this post in this section; thanks.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/consultation/marihuana/_2011/program/consult-eng.php

^^^^--------- The above link is the Canadian Federal Government website listing the proposed changes to Canada's MMJ laws.

Highlights:

1. The core of the redesigned Program would be a new, simplified process in which Health Canada no longer receives applications from program participants. A new supply and distribution system for dried marihuana that relies on licensed commercial producers would be established. These licensed commercial producers, who would be inspected and audited by Health Canada so as to ensure that they comply with all applicable regulatory requirements, would be able to cultivate any strain(s) of marihuana they choose. Finally, the production of marihuana for medical purposes by individuals in homes and communities would be phased out.

YOU CANT GROW AT HOME ANY MORE

2. Health Canada maintains that the determination as to whether the use of marihuana for medical purposes is appropriate for a particular individual is best made through a discussion with their physician. In this regard, Health Canada is proposing to eliminate the categories of conditions or symptoms for which an individual may possess marihuana for medical purposes under the MMAR.

Currently, physicians who are recommending (or supporting the application for the use of MJ) have to be able to practice in the category or area for which the application is being made. This ELIMINATES that requirement.

3. You DON'T need to see a specialist.

4. Licensed commercial producers would set the price for marihuana for medical purpose.

Well, these are what I think are the highlights. I'm really mixed because I think it obscene that the government would not allow a patient to grow their own medicine (if they chose). The second and third items I've listed benefit me personally, although it will be a specialist who finally gets me a card (currently not allowed to).

There you have it.

Tom

 

[canadianlive]

1 & 4 are crooked

I am confused about when this new proposition will be made into law. I don't like to wait and wait for ever to get a direction.

 

[biojuggernaut]

^ I agree. here comes taxation and regulation. so interesting to see how Canada might be be prefiguring the U.S.A. if ron paul gets elected. Best of luck man!

 

[tdavie]

The trouble with the proposed changes (and I mailed my MP and MLA using my real name and address) is that there are no price controls on the MJ that will be sold by these companies. Currently, the weed you get from Health Canada is capped in cost $7.50/g I think. When Health Canada gets out of the business of selling weed, I think the price will rise. At the moment, I'm paying $200/oz. Although I could afford to pay more, I know there are people who can't. I'll have to wait and see if lower income people get hurt.

People are still going to grow at home. But with the 'crime omnibus' bill that will shortly be passed, you face mandatory jail time for 6 plants. Doesn't matter if they're all male, immature, sick, whatever....federal jail time.

Tom

[edit Nov 5/11 In the last few days, British Columbia, Ontario and Quebec have expressed concerns over the proposed new medical laws AND the new crime bills. Quebec is refusing to pay additional enforcement and/or punishment costs and one radio talk show host in Vancouver claimed up to 2000 additional incarcerations per year at 60-80,000$ per prisoner. And BC doesn't have that kind of money to spend (if those numbers are true, but work down from there anyway).]

 

[Jurassic]

Wow, i'm surprised there aren't more licensed canadians on here. I was actually going to start up a thread on the MMAR program in light of what has been going on south of the border, namely in New Jersey. I'm glad I searched before I started a new thread!

In New Jersey, their new program has all sorts of new rules, such as 6 centres in the state will distribute, and only allow tested product to be not more than 10% THC!

http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/10/will-strict-medical-marijuana-rules-prot

I really hope things don't get worse for us MMAR'ers here. I like the idea of Health Canada getting the fuck out of it and having one simple letter signed by your family doctor, that I do approve. And I also approve the phasing out of Designated Growers and growing for personal usage. I really don't mind that. I just hope the product quality doesn't suffer (like HC's BS irradiated ditchweed for $5/g plus tax!) and prices don't skyrocket.

I'm also surprised that MedMe was shut down as I honestly thought that Ian Layfield was in cahoots with Health Canada. At least that's what their admin told me, that they are in constant contact with upper management in HC. At least their "alternative" lol is just as good.

Oh yeah, I also read an article that the supreme court overruled the laws for edibles? That's another victory forsure.

Just wanna keep this discussion going, hopefully on topic with the MMAR. It's gonna take a while for the changes, but it's always good to be in the know.

 

[JCat]

I do believe in the Personal Production and DG. I just think the regulation, inspections, etc. need to be moved to a municipal level as the primary concerns are at a municipal level (building codes, safety, ESA--electrical safety authority, etc.). If grow operations were properly licensed by municipalities, then it would alleviate a lot of the concerns around fire and health hazards.

I do believe that a regulated, commercial, privatized, cannabis distribution could be work and be beneficial for all, but it has to be noted that producing fine cannabis is in some ways like producing fine wine. There are huge variations in results based on unlimitted factors and the subtle differences in strains are important for a lot of us. It would also have to be a fairly open market to allow for small growers which would be able to produce the "boutique" quality strains that are much more manual labour intensive to produce. You need lots of people involved as well to keep costs down through healthy competition.

My main concern with the phasing out of PP and DG is that for those that can't afford to buy, but can afford to produce their own medicine, they'll be screwed. Their costs could go from a couple hundred a month to produce their own to thousands a month to purchase even at a cost of $200/oz. Especially when one considers those with sensitivities to inhalation that have to use edibles which can easily require twice as much. In other words, if we don't allow people to grow their own than we pretty much have to cover it in some way, otherwise many people will be left with the choices of: a) committing a crime and risking jail. b) switching to more harmful, covered medications, such as opiates.

I guess my other issue with this is what about those that have invested thousands of dollars in equipment and construction to have safe, properly setup locations to produce their medicine ... I guess they're just out of luck and they're stuck with these thousands of dollars of useless equipment, buildings, whatever?

 

[Jurassic]

You make some great points JCat...it's fricken plant, they should just completely legalize it. But until it does, we are under the rule of almighty Health Canada, and they will decide what's right for our country and patients. It is my personal belief that a large majority of the 10k+ patients don't even really require it, as can be attested from the two big doctors that sign papers for major cash. The abuse in this program is so rampant to the point of it ruining it for those that really need it. The PP and DG programs are a joke in my opinion. It's crazy how much dealing is going on and excess supply making its way everywhere. I had a DG, and got screwed big time. HC growing it is even worse. PP regulation at the municiple level will never happen.

The only option, and this is what is actually going to happen, are the commercial entities that will be very TIGHTLY regulated. I'm for this, especially if it's Medme or compassion clubs that are properly screened, the quality tightly controlled etc. It will ALL be through mail order, and I feel this is the safest bet for everyone, but that's just my view point. Will the underground market still prevail, ofcourse, and this is why our Harperite has created "super prisons" to harbour these "criminals" at a cost of 60-80k/year.

It could be worse, we have it prettttty damn good here, and personally i'm quite happy just being licensed and able to get my meds for $175-$200/oz. The doctors need to start seriously getting schooled, and then max. dosage amounts decided.

 

[JCat]

I totally disagree with the point of wether or not the 10k+ patients really need it. Who are we to decide what level of pain or suffering is sufficient to warrant what amount? Even at 2g/day it's a good 400-500 / month. I keep mine to 2-3g only because I am very careful about using efficient methods of ingestion. For those that can't smoke or vaporizer, but have to use edibles, that at least doubles which becomes 4-6g / day ... easy. At 6g / day even at $7/g you're looking at $42/day or $1,200 / month.

And this is still a very reasonable amount ... I can easily see that amount being 2x that for someone that uses it to control seizures or spasms or the like (such as MS patients ... I just use it so I can stay stable and continue to be a productive member of society and provide for my family and just keep on trucking ... my needs are moderate in comparison with some.) Back to the point of who are we to say who needs it and who doesn't ... I'd say at least 1/4 of the people who know of my prescription think it's a scam (which I assure you it is not ... I feel it helps me and the results as far as how things are going and how I feel speak for themselves ... basically the same measures for success as would be used for any other medication which a Dr. would prescribe me)

I don't mind paying, personally, but I can afford it. I'm not against commercial production, I'm just concerned that unless this is done in such a fashion as to allow many small growers into the market, quality will suffer terribly. I didn't think the quality of the MedMe stuff was that great personally (could tell it was large scale commercial production in taste and effects ... personally ... had a real "commercial/industrial" feel/effect which is not my preference ... I find I respond way better to organic--or super well flushed and cared for at the very least--over larger scale greenhouse or hydro operations where less care and attention is paid to each individual plant)

From MedMe, although the costs were significantly less (maybe $175 after tax and shipping?), I would rather pay 50% more than that and get quality and strains that work for me and don't leave me unproductive. I'm actually working with someone to maybe become my DG, but until the quality is where I want it to be, I would in fact rather spend $500/month for the quality I need and expect then for it to be sub-par and get it for free!

Growing boutique cannabis (clean quality high, clean taste, etc.) is very manually intensive and I fear that only allowing large scale commercial operations will make the production of these types of medication unfeasable (or they will charge insane prices to do so).

All that's a long-winded way of saying that IF they restrict to commercial operations, then let's hope it's a fairly open easy to enter market that will generate healthy competition and a healthy marketplace where quality and prices will be good. There also has to be a way to subsidize those that can't afford the cost of their medications. The compassion clubs and similar organizations also play an integral role in the education of new users. How exactly is someone supposed to figure out how to vaporize cannabis, what strains they might like, how to grind it, and all the other hundreds (or thousands) of things they should know if the compassion clubs aren't there. Also without the compassion clubs, who is going to be there to help educate people on healthy and appropriate usage of their medicine? People's Doctors? (I somehow doubt that )

 

[Jurassic]

You can disagree, but if you are saying who are we to decide who needs it, then who ARE we to decide? It should be decided by the doctor and doctor/patient discussion. Who are we to self medicate? Do we decide how much of any other prescribed drug we use? I believe the proposed changes and new program will involve significantly more education for doctors. Again, I feel there is much too much abuse, and again it must be decided what the criteria is for medicinal use, because at this point ANYONE can get an MMAR pretty much, as long as you have the $, regardless if you have an actual medical need or not.

Also, don't forget that compassion clubs/centres aren't illegal, only the trafficing of drugs are. There are many centres that provide education, assistance of completing MMAR forms, etc. so you don't have to sell herbs in order to be a functioning club. Many people educate themselves on the vast internet and i'm quite confident that when the commerical entities open, it's not going to be for marijuana sales only, and no education. Furthermore, I again I disagree that the doctor's will not educate people on healthy and appropriate dosages. That's their job, and soon will be a major liability.

Anyways, just my 2 grams, and again, it's stupid that this plant just isn't legal and sold in drug stores. Not in the pharmacy, but right on the shelves.

 

[kingofnull]

Are these changes as a result of the Mernagh decision?

 

[pakalolo]

Are these changes as a result of the Mernagh decision?

Not at all. For one thing, the decision from the Ontario Court of Appeal hasn't been delivered. I expect that whatever it is, the case will wind up in the Supreme Court of Canada. Health Canada isn't waiting for that.

These changes are the result of voting in a government run by assholes.

 

[kingofnull]

Not at all. For one thing, the decision from the Ontario Court of Appeal hasn't been delivered. I expect that whatever it is, the case will wind up in the Supreme Court of Canada. Health Canada isn't waiting for that.

These changes are the result of voting in a government run by assholes.

TBH, I stopped keeping up with it after May.

Some of the changes are good. But taking away the ability to grow? That's one of the top benefits of Cannabis as medicine IMO - accessibility and cost.

 

[hoptimum]

no grow would be a non-starter in the USA. It's silly and constrains creativity and initiative.

 

[JCat]

6 months since the Mernagh appeal now and still no decision! Man ... this is getting ridiculous! (what else is new )

 

[kingofnull]

6 months since the Mernagh appeal now and still no decision! Man ... this is getting ridiculous! (what else is new )

To say our government moves at a snail's pace would be an insult to snails and their pace.

 

[Tweek]

The whole application process in this country is ridiculous to say the least. So hard to even find doctors who are not afraid of signing the form for patients in need. I swear, this whole program seems like nothing but smoke and mirrors some times.

 

[JCat]

The whole application process in this country is ridiculous to say the least. So hard to even find doctors who are not afraid of signing the form for patients in need. I swear, this whole program seems like nothing but smoke and mirrors some times.

I don't see why it's so complicated ... in a society where we're addicted to anything and everything (food, tobacco, alcohol, video games, sex, tv, shopping, ...) it seems kind of ridiculous to pick on something that helps people more often than hurts them (and one with such a low addiction potential). I'm more addicted to buying new vaporizers than I am to cannabis!

 

[Ontariovapes]

I'm sure the recent recreational legalization in Colorado and Washington states will have a huge influence on the Canadian governments treatment of MMJ. They're not gonna spend a ton of money on changing the system only to have to repeal the whole thing in short order. I do agree that removing the grow license will deal a great blow to the medical community. I personally, think that is the best art of the system. It allows me to exactly tailor my meds to my needs and I know exactly what's in it and how it was produced from seed to vape. I really think we need to sit back and wait to see how the next year shakes out before we get our panties in a twist. Canadians ate not going to let the US become one liberal than they are where cannabis is concerned.

 

[pakalolo]

I'm sure the recent recreational legalization in Colorado and Washington states will have a huge influence on the Canadian governments treatment of MMJ. They're not gonna spend a ton of money on changing the system only to have to repeal the whole thing in short order. I do agree that removing the grow license will deal a great blow to the medical community. I personally, think that is the best art of the system. It allows me to exactly tailor my meds to my needs and I know exactly what's in it and how it was produced from seed to vape. I really think we need to sit back and wait to see how the next year shakes out before we get our panties in a twist. Canadians ate not going to let the US become one liberal than they are where cannabis is concerned.

Sadly it's not up to Canadians since about two-thirds of Canadians support decriminalization. It's up to the miserable shitheads in Harper's government, and they have proven time and again that they don't care what the public wants, they have their own agenda and they're happy to shove it down our throats. I don't see how the US votes will do anything but make them even more determined to keep it strictly illegal.

 

[SunnyHours]

Yes...it's kinda messed up...The U.S.A made Cannabis illegal. Canada and all other countries, followed and made it illegal as well. Now, the U.S are slowly starting to make it legal again and they'll pass for "heroes". While our retarded, asinine Harper Government will make everything in their power to keep it illegal. I mean, they want to make abortion illegal again

I was planning to apply for a card (to grow) but after almost a year of hearing they are cutting the grow licenses off, I don't see why I would apply. On top of that, even doctors are not sure what I have yet so I doubt I could get a license...contrarily to what Jurassic said, that anyone can get a license. It actually look like the opposite. Nobody can get a license

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations SunnyHours,

...I don't see why I would apply. ... Nobody can get a license...

What bothers me most about the Canadian system is that a person's name will be written somewhere.

After all, doesn't such a license imply that a vast number of failed requests actually correspond to anti-cannabic law offenders while waiting for an official refusal?... Well if know if i were in Harper's clan i'd keep an eye on that!...



So, i certainly wouldn't want to trust this governement myself considering how it behaved after its re-election.

 

[pakalolo]

Salutations SunnyHours,

What bothers me most about the Canadian system is that a person's name will be written somewhere.

After all, doesn't such a license imply that a vast number of failed requests actually correspond to anti-cannabic law offenders while waiting for an official refusal?... Well if know if i were in Harper's clan i'd keep an eye on that!...



So, i certainly wouldn't want to trust this governement myself considering how it behaved after its re-election.

As I understand it, there is no list of failed requests. If you can get a doctor to sign off then you will get your card. The failures happen at the doctor's level. Even if the doctor keeps a record of the request, it is a matter of patient-doctor confidentiality. That sort of information is protected and difficult to obtain without consent. It certainly isn't available to law enforcement on a fishing expedition.

 

[Ontariovapes]

Pakalolo is exactly right. If you get a doctor to sign, then you get a license. Also I believe that those with licenses will be grandfathered, as it s the supreme court of Canada that has given the right to MMj. This then comes under the charter of rights and freedoms and that cannot be overturned. I urge anyone who qualifies to get their license now. There is no downside.

 

[Tweek]

The hard part is getting the doctor to sign. There seems to be a fear among medical practitioners about putting their name to that piece of paper, even though they may feel it would help the patient immensely.

 

[Egzoset]

Hi Pakalolo,
Hi OntarioVapes,

As I understand it, there is no list of failed requests. If you can get a doctor to sign off then you will get your card. The failures happen at the doctor's level.

Also I believe that those with licenses will be grandfathered... ...I urge anyone who qualifies to get their license now. There is no downside.

Well done! I guess the level of paranoïa which the MMAR matters inspire me has finally been revealed...