Phase3 Vaporizers

[MikeRotchHertz]

First off, sorry to hear of the bad news with glass breakage. I know that has to be highly disappointing. I received mine very quickly, and couldn't wait for my sapphires to arrive, so I loaded it up with some boro balls I had.

Maybe there is something to the thermal expansion and contraction of those vs boro because I've not had any issues so far (knock on wood).

I also worked my coil a little bit before the start to loosen it and then tighten it again so it wasn't an overly tight fit, and didn't cram the last couple of beads I could have fit in there.

https://imgur.com/a/iePMT75

After reading your update yesterday, I purposely cut mine off and on and least a dozen times to monitor if mine would suffer the same fate. It's holding up well on day 2.

I was a little anxious with the coil friction fit at first. With no adjustment to the coil, it would not fit an out of the box high five branded coil. I stretched it but then when I got the perfect fit, it changed slightly on the heat-up and slid to the top lip where the intake holes are. I let it cool back down and then adjusted it down some and slightly tightened it again. It seems like the more times it's heated and cooled, the more secure the fit is. I'll definitely be babysitting it when the controller is on, and have it secured in case it cracks to where the balls stay in a stand.

Dense and flavorful hits! I wouldn't be so quick to abandon this project yet. There's something here no doubt.

 

[invertedisdead]

@MikeRotchHertz

Greatly appreciate you chiming in, and I’m so happy to hear things are rolling smooth so far! Looking STELLAR on that Seed of Life Lace Sphere rig!!

Those H5 coil wraps almost look thicker than my DC coil too, that’s interesting!

Definitely keep us updated
Really appreciate your support!

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

@invertedisdead Just heat one of these empty covers redhot 2 or 3 times in a row with a butane torch ,if it breaks it is problem in the annealing process.
Sad to hear about the latest develoment. Maybe make it larger diameter and increase wall thickness ,if you the coil expansion is the culprit .
Edited:

The Mohs Scale - A List of Gemstone Hardness

The Mohs Scale is a grading gemstone hardness scale used to rank minerals & products containing them like gemstone rings & jewellery.

www.purelydiamonds.co.uk

Strange that quartz and boro have similar hardness ,but rubies and sapphire are 9 on the scale. So there might be something to using boro beads vs gem stones.

 

[Beyonder420]

Coil and glass combos are prone to heartache. The high five axial banger/coil combos that came paired up were a bit of a hit n miss back when you could still buy them. I had a set that were too loose/sloppy replaced with a set that cracked from compression on the first dab. The staff sending me replacements were not surprised.

Rubies are definitely known to cause issues due to extra expansion as well. They hold heat better but at the cost of needing a little wiggle room.

 

[arb]

First off, sorry to hear of the bad news with glass breakage. I know that has to be highly disappointing. I received mine very quickly, and couldn't wait for my sapphires to arrive, so I loaded it up with some boro balls I had.

Maybe there is something to the thermal expansion and contraction of those vs boro because I've not had any issues so far (knock on wood).

I also worked my coil a little bit before the start to loosen it and then tighten it again so it wasn't an overly tight fit, and didn't cram the last couple of beads I could have fit in there.

https://imgur.com/a/iePMT75

After reading your update yesterday, I purposely cut mine off and on and least a dozen times to monitor if mine would suffer the same fate. It's holding up well on day 2.

I was a little anxious with the coil friction fit at first. With no adjustment to the coil, it would not fit an out of the box high five branded coil. I stretched it but then when I got the perfect fit, it changed slightly on the heat-up and slid to the top lip where the intake holes are. I let it cool back down and then adjusted it down some and slightly tightened it again. It seems like the more times it's heated and cooled, the more secure the fit is. I'll definitely be babysitting it when the controller is on, and have it secured in case it cracks to where the balls stay in a stand.

Dense and flavorful hits! I wouldn't be so quick to abandon this project yet. There's something here no doubt.

Showoff.............

@invertedisdead Just heat one of these empty covers redhot 2 or 3 times in a row with a butane torch ,if it breaks it is problem in the annealing process.
Sad to hear about the latest develoment. Maybe make it larger diameter and increase wall thickness ,if you the coil expansion is the culprit .

I agree the wall needs to be thicker by double and prolly a 20mm coil.
The concept is rock solid and needs to be explored further.
I understand @invertedisdead frustration fully the investment of time and money has been considerable.

 

[MikeRotchHertz]

Showoff.............

I agree the wall needs to be thicker by double and prolly a 20mm coil.
The concept is rock solid and needs to be explored further.
I understand @invertedisdead frustration fully the investment of time and money has been considerable.

Man I felt really guilty when mine didn't break yesterday lol. What kind of shit is that?

My poor cat, though, has been outside until further notice

I have to say from my experience that this glass is definitely expanding more than I thought when it cools. Like I said above, the coil loosened when heated, but now that it's cooled I don't think I could push it through the loop if I wanted to. Don't think I'll try either.

 

[Vaporware]

Sorry @invertedisdead ! This was a great design overall and it sucks I never got to try it, but I look forward to seeing the next one you’re working on.

 

[invertedisdead]

With this one, the wall thickness options are quite limited since it’s based on a modified molded quartz joint. I could find heavy wall 3MM thick boro joints, but didn’t have as much luck when searching in quartz. It’s possible those would do the trick though.

The issue with a 20mm coil is adapting the 16mm joint tubing to it without adding a bunch of wasted length that effects the heat transfer efficiencies. I still like my 20MM version, but it costs more to build those than the simpler 1.7 sold for. With the other entries I’m not sure there’s as much shelf space price wise for the 20mm quartz InVerzion.

That said, this newer design I’ve sent out a quote for is based on a 20mm coil power plant (externally heated) and is in a similar “injector style” vane. It’s based on everything I learned from ball vapes, without using any balls.

 

[Beyonder420]

Can you get a 20mm coil over an 18mm male GonG? (I should just go look.)

Even if you had to drop down to 14mm male, if you are forced to blow your own adapter, may as well make it an inverted shower cap where the coil is upside down and slid up under the lip of the cap so the outside face of the coil is heating the lip that comes down.

Mold a spiral thread into the outer face of the shower cap lip, mold a matching inner face on a thick cap that slides down on top, and now the intake air has to ride the spiral, which is heated by the outer face of the coil.

If the top cap is thick enough you could probably add a silicone booty/wrap and now there's very few danger points? Ah custom quartz!

 

[arb]

With this one, the wall thickness options are quite limited since it’s based on a modified molded quartz joint. I could find heavy wall 3MM thick boro joints, but didn’t have as much luck when searching in quartz. It’s possible those would do the trick though.

The issue with a 20mm coil is adapting the 16mm joint tubing to it without adding a bunch of wasted length that effects the heat transfer efficiencies. I still like my 20MM version, but it costs more to build those than the simpler 1.7 sold for. With the other entries I’m not sure there’s as much shelf space price wise for the 20mm quartz InVerzion.

That said, this newer design I’ve sent out a quote for is based on a 20mm coil power plant (externally heated) and is in a similar “injector style” vane. It’s based on everything I learned from ball vapes, without using any balls.

Gonna tuck'em or full clip?

 

[invertedisdead]

I’ve confirmed this one is good to go, and it’s looking like things will be moving forward on this next project.

I’ll be ordering a sample run shortly, I just need to optimize and confirm my measurements.

I might reach out to a few extra helping hands to test this one.

Thank you so much for your continued interest.

 

[Cheebsy]

That's absolutely fantastic news man. Congrats.

Are you keeping the design under wraps until you're closer to a full realise this time? I can't say I'd blame you but I really enjoyed you taking us on the journey with you on the previous versions.

 

[invertedisdead]

That's absolutely fantastic news man. Congrats.

Are you keeping the design under wraps until you're closer to a full realise this time? I can't say I'd blame you but I really enjoyed you taking us on the journey with you on the previous versions.

Im probably going to be more quiet about this one until I’m closer to the finish line. That said, I’m not expecting an ultra long development process as most of the details should be worked out from condensing other concepts down.

Despite some similar working principals, it’s also quite different from the InVerzion vaporizer. Everything has been specifically optimized for maximum heat transfer, whereas the InVerzion vaporizer was more about glass purity, this one is about experimenting beyond the potential limitations of glass.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Im probably going to be more quiet about this one until I’m closer to the finish line. That said, I’m not expecting an ultra long development process as most of the details should be worked out from condensing other concepts down.

Despite some similar working principals, it’s also quite different from the InVerzion vaporizer. Everything has been specifically optimized for maximum heat transfer, whereas the InVerzion vaporizer was more about glass purity, this one is about experimenting beyond the potential limitations of glass.

Glad to hear about you new project. I am just curious are the bowls gonna be the same like on the InVezion ?(Utilizing the female glass joint ) ?

 

[invertedisdead]

Glad to hear about you new project. I am just curious are the bowls gonna be the same like on the InVezion ?(Utilizing the female glass joint ) ?

My new one is based around the familiar 19mm male gong like a number of other devices already use. Not a m2m adapter, but the flat topped 19mm gong on 16mm tubing. So the bowl will be a bit smaller, and the heat more concentrated.

And the heater will be outside the bowl, instead of inside like these ones were.

If it goes over well enough I’d like to eventually add a custom bowl too, as I believe it would improve or add a different experience to the mix!

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

My new one is based around the familiar 19mm male gong like a number of other devices already use. Not a m2m adapter, but the flat topped 19mm gong on 16mm tubing. So the bowl will be a bit smaller, and the heat more concentrated.

And the heater will be outside the bowl, instead of inside like these ones were.

If it goes over well enough I’d like to eventually add a custom bowl too, as I believe it would improve or add a different experience to the mix!

Nice this sounds familiar , i have such heaters in my concept variations but with balls and i like them a lot and actually prefer them to pure convection concept,lately i am diggin the 14mm male bowl best, i get very even bake and bowl is cashed really quickly, also it works fine with whole nugs. I think the vapolution and the vaponic guys got it pretty nailed on taste and performance with their hybrid heating ! ( Let's not forget our beloved Hippie Dickie,too !)

 

[invertedisdead]

lately i am diggin the 14mm male bowl best, i get very even bake and bowl is cashed really quickly, also it works fine with whole nugs.

That sounds fantastic!
Is the ID like 8MM? I think I tried one before, but my screen wasn’t ideal and clogged pretty easy since it was so small.
I’m into the real fast extraction lately, seems to make for a nice smooth experience without too much hot air.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

That sounds fantastic!
Is the ID like 8MM? I think I tried one before, but my screen wasn’t ideal and clogged pretty easy since it was so small.
I’m into the real fast extraction lately, seems to make for a nice smooth experience without too much hot air.

The tube ID 9mm cause wall is 1.5 on the lenz/simax with that size, but the bowl itself is the 14/23 male which is a bit wider,maybe 11 id at the bottom. , I use a very coarse screen , cause i dont like cleaning too often,i think it is 80 mesh.
Btw The arizer cup screen on the 19/26 male with the female heater delivers monstrous one hitters .
IF you look at the vapolution manuals you will see them advising to load herb pelets and not grind. It keeps the airflow good and the debris to a minimum, this is what i am at lately.
Glad to see we are again on the same page with vapor production preferences. High density hits FTW ! Nothing wrong with conduction in the mix if it is on demand !

 

[invertedisdead]

The tube ID 9mm cause wall is 1.5 on the lenz/simax with that size, but the bowl itself is the 14/23 male which is a bit wider,maybe 11 id at the bottom. , I use a very coarse screen , cause i dont like cleaning too often,i think it is 80 mesh.
Btw The arizer cup screen on the 19/26 male with the female heater delivers monstrous one hitters .
IF you look at the vapolution manuals you will see them advising to load herb pelets and not grind. It keeps the airflow good and the debris to a minimum, this is what i am at lately.
Glad to see we are again on the same page with vapor production preferences. High density hits FTW ! Nothing wrong with conduction in the mix if it is on demand !

I agree I think the right added conduction does a lot of good. Im definitely into the small one hit snappers again, I was talking to @arb the other day about wanting to do a smaller 14mm bowl + 16mm heater, but IDK how many people would really be interested in a small bowled desktop vape with the exposed coil heater, so I figured I’d probably work on the 20mm first. But I quite like the idea a lot myself, as I’m more and more impressed these days on getting dense, smooth milkers from small amounts!

I’ve been doing a hand tear lately when I strike the mood, I like that extra ancient connection with the plant!

 

[invertedisdead]

Well I seem to have lost communications with the European manufacturing company I was in correspondence with... strange because they seemed pretty excited about the project. This matters as only two companies are doing this technology, and they own the other one too. Perhaps the dreaded V word came out on accident? Being around this community for this long, I sometimes forget the rest of the world is not as receptive as our humble community...

Not the end of the world, plenty of other concepts to explore, but this was a pretty unique one for a desktop so I was looking forward to it. The main takeaway is it was positioned as a fairly affordable manufacturing process, whereas some of these other projects based on advanced materials are somewhat complex in setup fees, machining expenses, and tooling.

Many of you saw my QU4D CORE stem concept, thanks for checking that one out!
Still looking to make progress with these ultra pure desktops, but when you crunch the numbers the fact is it’s an incredibly small market, with the “artisan desktop” category realistically being the least popular category of any vaporizer. And then we have this anomaly in our industry, very different from most others, where the artisan products actually sell for less than many of the mass produced items, which makes growth quite challenging. I definitely think there is still room for a desktop like I want to bring to market, but it has to be sustainable. It has always been an idea to potentially sell other products to fund these more complex developments with real ideas instead of relying on crowd funding / outside investment. The QU4D CORE is one potential idea, amongst others, to help do that.

 

[DRCousCous]

I was talking to @arb the other day about wanting to do a smaller 14mm bowl + 16mm heater, but IDK how many people would really be interested in a small bowled desktop vape with the exposed coil heater, so I figured I’d probably work on the 20mm first. But I quite like the idea a lot myself, as I’m more and more impressed these days on getting dense, smooth milkers from small amounts!

<-- this guy is interested in a smaller 14mm bowl + heater (so long as the coil is "standard" wiring to work with my existing controller). Due to the other medications I take regularly (benzos, gabapentin, baclofen), larger hits or multiple hits will absolutely put me to sleep (at almost any time of day).

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edit: as usual, I should read the rest of the thread before commenting. Very sorry to hear about the setback. I did have some thoughts on two ideas you've brought up here: smaller bowl for full extractions; a well-designed all glass bowl for vapes. Not sure they're thoughts worth reading, but I've left them below.

If you do bring a vape to market (or even testing), I'd be glad to either make a contribution or purchase a tester. I think you've done some really good work that has spurred some really good conversation here. That in itself is worthwhile to the community, even if you feel up shit creek without a paddle. You've spent time and money trying to make your (good) ideas a reality, and it just ain't working out. On to the next project! You seem a natural designer

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I use cannabis to help with neuropathic pain, spasms, and convulsions/seizures. I find that the best extractor I have is the sticky brick Runt (with no packing at all). That is the combo that gets super fast, near-complete, and very thick extraction. High heat, small tube, small bowl, filled with no pack, and lots of torch control. In a ten second pull I can extract an entire bowl.

And, here's the thing: a single bowl on the Runt is too much for me right now (other than CBD/CBG flower). I would love an external coil injector-style vape that was designed for fast and thorough extraction of small bowls. I have a DiTanium and a DC-Elev8r, and neither of them quite do it. The DT is an absolute beast but is a bit slow to get to first vapor (unless turned up too high). If I want a big bowl thoroughly extracted, I can do it efficiently with two long draws from the DT with a good stir. The DC-Elev8r's airflow is too restricted for my taste, more of a session vape. With a glass bowl through a J-hook or dry glass piece it has the best flavor of any device I've used... However, it's drawbacks mean it's my least-used vape at the moment.

Anyhow, I'm tracking on the fast and complete extraction. I'm totally down with a foil-coil, quartz-channel, or whatever works. Don't really care so long as it's medically safe (TI, SS, or quartz) and doesn't use butane. I love my Runt, and I love cyberpunk coil-on-the-outside kind of devices. I'd absolutely love an injector style vape that performed more like a Sticky Brick (true on-demand convection). I also think you're on the right track in terms of a new bowl design. The elev8r glass bowl works ok with a drycatch, but an awful lot of herb ends up in my drycatch. Flavor is great...

Anyhow, yes. I want a pure convection, mega-powerhouse for mini-dosing (not microdosing). A 14mm bowl could be perfect for me.

 

[invertedisdead]

super fast, near-complete, and very thick extraction.

Roger that!

And I agree, that’s what keeps me involved in this project, cause what I really want still doesn’t exist. Otherwise I’d just buy it!

Importance definitely being on facilitating rapid extraction, without coming in so hot the load burns/chars. It’s a delicate process to keep a wide band of molecular variety, and crisp flavor, dense vapor, all in “one hit completion.” At this stage in my journey I don’t really see convection being sufficient on its own, with a conduction element necessary for the performance I desire. I could be wrong there, but thats what I’m thinking.

Airflow is extremely important, especially to do a smaller bowl without restricting the airflow. Especially coming from all these ball vape experiments, which tend to have a fairly restrictive draw. In fact my whole time with them has been about trying to tackle their #1 drawback and make the airflow more comfortable. “breathability” is an element that will definitely be going into all my future designs!

 

[Beyonder420]

This is exactly what I found on my chase for 'one hit completion'.

It wasn't until I cheated, and got right up close to the heater tip, so that the heat was soaking into the bud from thermal conduction in the bowl, that the hot spot from the convection air was balanced out.

In my case I had to use an affordable existing vape and mod it, and I am firing up so I can cheat with a heat soak between hits vs. consider an active heater for conducted heat.

Firing upward does come with gotchas of its own. Now I have the bud heating evenly, it exposes new hassles to fix with keeping the bowl clean/reclaim buildup and wanting to drip into the heater. *oof!*

 

[invertedisdead]

It wasn't until I cheated, and got right up close to the heater tip, so that the heat was soaking into the bud from thermal conduction in the bowl, that the hot spot from the convection air was balanced out.

I notice that sometimes with my Vapor Wand, and as long as the temps aren't out of line the performance is extremely rapid. Especially with the 14mm version, as the adapter bowls are smaller, so its easier for the flower to sometimes touch the heater - especially with the way the herb expands when heated. But the temps have to be perfect when they touch since there’s no real temp control in the SCVW.

In my case I had to use an affordable existing vape and mod it, and I am firing up so I can cheat with a heat soak between hits vs. consider an active heater for conducted heat.

Firing upward does come with gotchas of its own. Now I have the bud heating evenly, it exposes new hassles to fix with keeping the bowl clean/reclaim buildup and wanting to drip into the heater. *oof!*

I can imagine that, plus you usually need screens on both sides of the herb when going up which is another quibble. It's sort of an inverse issue here with the "injector" style heaters, you need good thermal efficiency or uncleared rising vapors can condense in the heater (never a good sign really) One of the reasons I switched to gems a few years ago was to help negate those cold spots across the heater that glass ball heaters can have. The gems help heat the glass more evenly than the heating coil itself, based on the concept behind laboratory bead baths. Lab bead baths use aluminum though for its high conductivity - I’ve used those in my heaters too, they’re actually solid.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Working on CAD files today for a 16mm heater to send out for ceramic quotes.
Still need to draw out the bowl, but might as well find out what this one part costs first, cause if its cost prohibitive there's no need to finish all the 3D drawings.

IMO the concept is real solid from a heat transfer perspective; but will be challenging to polish it down into something more marketable than a heater on an e-nail coil. I mean, that's good enough for me, and quite a few of us on here, but the trick is after we all have one, is there enough to keep going, or is that the end of the road? By the time the costs stabilize and manufacturing become more profitable, is there any demand left? Historically, even really polished desktops have struggled in this space. If you've been around for a while, you already know.

I think a real challenge is to maintain the value on something that doesn't really look that expensive or complicated to make.
These advanced materials pretty much all have to be machined with diamond coated tools by specialized shops, and that little combination adds up quickly. IMO the market has probably even declined compared to legacy devices, it's hard to sell a custom built desktop in 2021 for as much as a mass produced portable.

A log would be a nice way to address the exposed heater issue. The issue with logs and this concept is logs aren't really designed for this high amount of conductive heat transfer, which would take a lot of insulation to address. By the time you do that your little heater is as big as a Loud Cevo (wink)


You could make it out of metal but someone already builds titanium injector desktops, and trying to competing with anyone who does all their own in house machining would be incredibly difficult.

One idea I've been *fielding* is an induction heated concept for water pipes I originally designed as a desktop, but I figured the ergonomics were ultimately off for a plugin. By induction heating, this gets rid of the exposed coils and cords that many view as a detractor. The main issue is whether an IH device currently exists to properly heat it. I should get a Wand and do a few experiments. But I do think an IH powered vape could be a challenge without an IH optimized for it, both in temperature control and power regulation. The cool thing about my IH vape is I believe it could be fairly easily optimized for efficient mass production, which is hard to do with a lot of other designs.

 

[Beyonder420]

I was just seeing someone talking about making 3d printed ceramics where they use a photosensitive curing process followed by sintering the resulting ceramics to harden them for medical/chemical uses.

We're almost at that sweet spot!?