Phase3 Vaporizers

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
I was just seeing someone talking about making 3d printed ceramics where they use a photosensitive curing process followed by sintering the resulting ceramics to harden them for medical/chemical uses.

We're almost at that sweet spot!?

I thought we were basically already there from seeing what’s possible, but after talking to some advanced ceramics experts, 3D printing still needs quite a bit of progress to be made for technical ceramics (so I'm told.) It can be done but it’s pretty specialized and not really cost effective quite yet compared to printing other materials.
 
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Beyonder420

Well-Known Member
Yeah in the dental applications they deal with the topic almost like it's magic, starting off with a scaled up version of the final part, and then sintering it down under intense heat to get a pure ceramic result at a much smaller size:

...and that is being mindful that these sorts of private practices have crazy funding research! But we might get access to this stuff before we enjoy flying cars, which is nice.
 

Shadooz

Well-Known Member
ceramic quotes
😍 Ceramic, i like where it is (u're) going

The issue with logs and this concept is logs aren't really designed for this high amount of conductive heat transfer
Even for high convection, wood and temp needed aren't really compatible, except for the handle. Even firerpoof..

"fahrenheit 451"

"
Hello!"
He said hello and then said, "What are you up to now?"
"I'm still crazy. The rain feels good. I love to walk in it.
"I don't think I'd like that," he said.
"You might if you tried."
"I never have."
She licked her lips. "Rain even tastes good."
"What do you do, go around trying everything once?" he asked.
"Sometimes twice.
"

"Mr. Montag, you are looking at a coward. I saw the way things were going a long time back. I said nothing. I am one of the innocents who could have spoken up and out when no one would listen to the 'guilty,' but I did not speak and thus became guilty myself.
"

I'm not guilty.

I was just seeing someone talking about making 3d printed ceramics where they use a photosensitive curing process followed by sintering the resulting ceramics to harden them for medical/chemical uses.
It may be usefull for "technical ceramic" (AlN ?), but the old natural one have no need of specific treatment. Safe and tough since milleniums.

But we will have to be carefull of who made it...
They bring high silicosis risk, when price is The constraint..

is that the end of the road? By the time the costs stabilize and manufacturing become more profitable, is there any demand left? Historically, even really polished desktops have struggled in this space. If you've been around for a while, you already know.
Competition.
Only ramp up device can get the "head" out of water.
And Only many slighly variations lately..
Polished maybe, but industrial design.

PID have a long way to progress, aesteticaly. That's where i want wood.

One idea I've been *fielding* is an induction heated concept for water pipes I originally designed as a desktop
IH just can heat metal, so it won't gonna give anything more than what u get with all the titanium desktop. Or bring them back to conduction..
except for a vapcap, there is no really interest in, as desktop.
 
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invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
Yeah in the dental applications they deal with the topic almost like it's magic, starting off with a scaled up version of the final part, and then sintering it down under intense heat to get a pure ceramic result at a much smaller size:

...and that is being mindful that these sorts of private practices have crazy funding research! But we might get access to this stuff before we enjoy flying cars, which is nice.

It's super interesting because they seem to have fast results too.
I think a lot depends on how extreme the application is since ceramics are often used for very extreme environments. Perhaps the composition affects the process too? Dental ceramics are zirconia based IIRC. I'm not sure how the print process would differ from that compared to say, alumina though.

This is what I was recently told about the process

"3D printing is in the R&D stage but it is difficult to control the dimensions to fine tolerance; we often see defects in the product composition, with a large possibility to create a pore/space between layers, which is not reliable as a ceramic."

Even for high convection, wood and temp needed aren't really compatible, except for the handle. Even firerpoof..

It would be a convection heater, I just mean that the way logs are assembled is sort of based on low conductivity metals which works well since they don't transfer much heat to the wood, and trying to do that with a very high conductivity ceramic would take some tinkering.

PID have a long way to progress, aesteticaly. That's where i want wood.

The other day I was thinking colored ceramic PID cases might be kind of cool ........ 👀
I wanted to do some ceramic 3D printing but the minimum tolerances are too high for most of the stuff I would do, but I figured PID cases might be kinda cool. Always thought exotic wood PID cases would do well too, wish I still had a workshop to use!!

IH just can heat metal, so it won't gonna give anything more than what u get with all the titanium desktop. Or bring them back to conduction..
except for a vapcap, there is no really interest in, as desktop.

That's true that my induction concept would be based in metal as I do think it's neccesary for best performance with induction (less thermal resistance). What it would potentially offer that the other desktops don't is the ability to use on demand, free of any cords and cables. To be able to pull the water pipe out, load a bowl, and inhale while heating without any waiting would be ideal. Plus I think the manufacturability is good with my design as it could be likely made without any machining. But I would need to work with someone on a custom induction heater for it to really be anything special, and that's wayyyyyyy out of my wheelhouse! Cool idea, probably not the right time for it though.

But IDK.
I have so much fun *buzzing* :buzz: between stuff, though I do feel close!!

Rolling the dice, here's my DABBED & CAD idea for the night, based on various old sketches and doodles from 2020.

InV33.jpg



16MM CNC Machined borosilicate glass housing, heated by a path isolated & recessed cartridge heater.
Air is distributed through the 8 airways for heating, then passes over a 12mm glass bowl (14mm joint)
Ideally a handle would thread in to this glass housing to make it handlable, sort of like a desktop G43, sans beads. I didn't feel like drawing it in tonight, but I think this would be quite cool.
A true "injection" heater, nominal dose friendly, no exposed coils, all glass.
 
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Shadooz

Well-Known Member
It would be a convection heater, I just mean that the way logs are assembled is sort of based on low conductivity metals which works well since they don't transfer much heat to the wood, and trying to do that with a very high conductivity ceramic would take some tinkering.
Yes, based on their low mass.
A 20mm coil will be different to put under wood :rofl:
And for an "un-blasted" ristretto, u need calories.

Very high conductivity ceramics are still theorical for inhalation. would have to do a "bath test", see how it react to water, iso, after a week, then a month .. before trying with my own lungs.

The other day I was thinking colored ceramic PID cases might be kind of cool ........ 👀
I wanted to do some ceramic 3D printing but the minimum tolerances are too high for most of the stuff I would do, but I figured PID cases might be kinda cool. Always thought exotic wood PID cases would do well too, wish I still had a workshop to use!!
The ugliest part come mostly from their faces :rofl:
Chinese screen and buttons aren't the best..
And i want the temp numbers looking up, with 3 preselected temp buttons 🥲
I'm here for the "finitions" !

Sry i use french, but did u use it too here ?
sort of like a desktop G43, sans beads.
Sans = without here ?

That's true that my induction concept would be based in metal as I do think it's neccesary for best performance with induction (less thermal resistance). What it would potentially offer that the other desktops don't is the ability to use on demand, free of any cords and cables.
Battery powered IH will only work on low mass, so u can just try an heavier vapcap. But it will still have the need of conduction cooking, so will never compete against a desktop...
Too big for outside, too small for in. Only for the (small?) mass who want a big "all road".. So American :evil:

16MM CNC Machined borosilicate glass housing
It's Even more complex than this thread unit, which have still high failure rate.
Complex Machined borosilicate may not be the easiest way, and so price wise.
And will add silicosis risk too, if not well finished.
je prefere ma finition.
 
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invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
Very high conductivity ceramics are still theorical for inhalation. would have to do a "bath test", see how it react to water, iso, after a week, then a month .. before trying with my own lungs.

I mean some of them are considered biocompatible for implantation, which is way more extreme than our usage. Solubility tests are available for all those materials, AlN is the one that is slightly soluble in water which is kind of weird.


And i want the temp numbers looking up, with 3 preselected temp buttons 🥲

Preset temperature hot keys would be pretty nice!


Sans = without here ?

Correct! All in one!



Battery powered IH will only work on low mass,

Low mass is good, IMO (and I know this is an unpopular opinion) but mass is way overrated in the vape community. Mass is only a major variable for “heat-then-hit” vapes which need to store heat. Lower mass is more responsive and regenerates quicker, but it depends on the nature of the design. I don’t personally see mass as being that important in a desktop receiving constant power supply. If you’re losing energy faster than you can input, it would suggest bigger inefficiencies further upstream IME.


It's Even more complex than this thread unit, which have still high failure rate.
Complex Machined borosilicate may not be the easiest way, and so price wise.
And will add silicosis risk too, if not well finished.
je prefere ma finition.

Silicosis risk?
Most likely if you stand in the machine shop trying to breathe in the glass dust while the mill is running. Most of those risks are for workers around silica dust all day long.

There’s higher risk of inhaling glass particles just mating your bowl to a ground glass joint. That’s why they grease them in the lab, but regardless, I can’t see it being a major deal in a water pipe.

I like to think the part is not that complex, it’s just 10 holes, although I’ve said that before about other stuff that was considered complicated to build 😅😅😅

Looking back this morning with fresh eyes, I think it’s a pretty awesome idea! Desktop MiniGpot that’s truly all glass, thats bitchin!! By being glass it’s got its own insulation built in which is pretty cool, idk, I’m digging it! Gets rid of the coil nobody likes, especially if you could handle it like a G, that would be fantastic. I think it’s great because it’s like, the exact opposite of my original InVerzion vaporizer, while still drawing inspiration from the same two sources.
 
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Shadooz

Well-Known Member
I mean some of them are considered biocompatible for implantation, which is way more extreme than our usage.
"Some of them", and mostly bone reconstruction, not dust over mucus.

Solubility tests are available for all those materials, AlN is the one that is slightly soluble in water which is kind of weird.
Available For all those 100% pure materials..
i can't trust general study only, i Need to test the materiel from each manufacturers. Certification will be the only way to avoid some traps :
Silicosis risk?
Maybe if you stand in the machine shop trying to breathe in the glass dust while the mill is running. Most of those risks are for workers around silica dust all day long.
Silicosis will occur with low grade clay, undercooked. As with broken, unpolished glass/boro/qwartz.
But yes, it could occur localy, hopefully reduced by water filtration.
Technical ceramics can bring worst, not named silicosis, because there will have no silica... but the same local fibrosis end.

I will be seen as the bad by this scene, but who is the good ? And who is the ugly ? :rofl:



Low mass is good
Conduction won't care, true. convection does.
And I only want ristretto :evil:


Correct! All in one!
Tu parles, ou apprends le français ? :lol:
Inintentionnel, ou Fait exprès ?
 

Cheebsy

Microbe minion
It's like the GS and g43 had a love child! 🥰

Are you planning to machine from Boro rod? As you say, it sounds like a reasonably simple idea lol. I hope it truly is!
 

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
It's like the GS and g43 had a love child! 🥰

Are you planning to machine from Boro rod? As you say, it sounds like a reasonably simple idea lol. I hope it truly is!

🤔🤔🤔 I’m liking it a lot! There’s a little inspiration from a bunch of stuff all nestled in there!

I do think it could be milled from solid boro rod! 🥶

Biggest complication I see in the machining process is that the part would have to be flipped over to drill the isolated heater hole. That adds some complexity/cost/time to the process, but it could still be feasible. I think the idea of a little all glass desktop injector ready to go at all times sounds pretty awesome. I mean the InVerzion is kind of like that already, but there’s something I find really appealing about this idea. I had a bunch of cartridge heater powered designs, but most were somewhat complex, this one seems pretty doable.
 

Cheebsy

Microbe minion
What a great sound! Sounds like you're vaping budgerigars!

Speaking of turbulence, I was laying awake thinking about your rendering and was wondering if the intake would have enough turbulence to help speed up energy transfer. I really like the encased cartridge heater idea. How much do cartridge heaters expand and contract? Will it need some thermal transfer paste like JoJo used?
 

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
What a great sound! Sounds like you're vaping budgerigars!

Speaking of turbulence, I was laying awake thinking about your rendering and was wondering if the intake would have enough turbulence to help speed up energy transfer. I really like the encased cartridge heater idea. How much do cartridge heaters expand and contract? Will it need some thermal transfer paste like JoJo used?

Valid and appropriate questions!

Cartridge heater expansion would depend on the sheath material of the heater, some are SS, others are different alloys. I was looking last night and most in the 1/4” size come in at 1” long for the shortest length, which would add an extra 5mm to the drawing.

Theoretically you could just use thermal expansion to hold, but I was thinking it would likely benefit to make use of some sort of thermal paste or temperature safe medical epoxy to hold the heater in place and fill the clearance. I’d probably use that to attach a handle too into a blind hole. I said thread when I originally posted, but you probably wouldn’t want to really thread onto glass and put it in tension. Would be cool to just fuse/weld a glass handle on but I’d have to find out if the tolerances would be skewed from hot working the part - I would think they might but I’m not certain.

Ive got a few ideas for augmentation up my sleeve, though glass might be tricky to do some of them, I’d have to run it by the machine shop. One earlier concept uses what I call the “turbulent turn” to add turbulent fallout to the incoming airstream,

2-E06-A6-C8-AB5-A-40-B9-AE94-A9436-FDD917-C.jpg

Tu parles, ou apprends le français ? :lol:
Inintentionnel, ou Fait exprès ?

I promise if I knew French I’d reply to you in that 😁
 

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
Everytime I see these I think it would get a little bit more efficient with a slight tweak?View attachment 14030

Yeah that’s the classic counter current flow the logs use, I had a design like that too, but you can’t machine that blind turn.

The trade off with my design is you get direct conduction contact between the cartridge heater and the heat exchanger, which is theoretically superior in efficiency anyways to the radiant heat transfer from the cartridge in most logs. I do like the idea of counter flow, but hard to do as a unibody.
 
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Beyonder420

Well-Known Member
Yeah but if you have holes coming out the side of a barrel, and you slide a tube over the barrel, and shim it so it's blocked at the end, now there's an airway?
If the tube you slide over is the same ID as the OD of the barrel and has spiral cut slits that line up with the air holes, then all you need is a way to hold the two sections together that's mostly airtight?
 

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
Yeah but if you have holes coming out the side of a barrel, and you slide a tube over the barrel, and shim it so it's blocked at the end, now there's an airway?
If the tube you slide over is the same ID as the OD of the barrel and has spiral cut slits that line up with the air holes, then all you need is a way to hold the two sections together that's mostly airtight?

IMO if it was made out of glass, the extra right angle would add another pocket of air insulation so I don’t think it would increase the usable heated surface area much if any.

With a different material it would be more effective, but I’d probably save it for a log versus this mini injector.
 
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Shadooz

Well-Known Member
I promise if I knew French I’d reply to you in that 😁
So how and why a french word slide in your sentence ? :lol:
My french Mind overwhelming your english barbarisms ? :evil: :rofl:
I'm Here to spread Gallicism

"French and English"

Everytime I see these I think it would get a little bit more efficient with a slight tweak?View attachment 14030
Extrapolate to max, it ends as a Supreme.
But work only with high conductive materials, which can recover their heart fast enough, and not losing all straight.

More complex design to increase exchange, it's worth if u want the heater to stay small with enough exchange sufaces.
For heavy titanium, it just adds useless extra cost manufacturing (even if a flowerpot lacks of exchange surfaces)

The next step wants to get rid of metals direct exchange to the airflow.
A Design hard to reproduce with boro, or ceramics.

But for doing an " "heavier" vapcap IH ", it would be the design

Theoretically you could just use thermal expansion to hold,
U still trust only friction ? U have not learnt from all those bad cats lately, breaking, with too much catnips ?
 
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invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
So how and why a french word slide in your sentence ? :lol:
My french Mind overwhelming your english barbarisms ? :evil: :rofl:
I'm Here to spread Gallicism

😃😃😃


“there I go, right off the precipice, following the footsteps of no one else!”



More complex design to increase exchange, it's worth if u want the heater to stay small with enough exchange sufaces.
For heavy titanium, it just adds useless extra cost manufacturing (even if a flowerpot lacks of exchange surfaces)

The flowerpot is great, even in standard configuration it’s never ran out of power on me ever. I think people just like making their heaters more efficient, which lets them achieve the same results at a lower set point, giving the illusion of “vaping at lower temps” - even though physics says “nah!” 😁😁😁


Extrapolate to max, it ends as a Supreme.

A number of my FC OG peers do consider that to be the best ever made. The best tasting and hardest hitting. I think it’s interesting because on my journey, I made the observation that perhaps the most flavorful AND the hardest hitting, aren’t mutually exclusive, and could be preferable in more than one device. But a number of folks do feel that way about this device. I did design a vape inspired by this legend, but had some communications trouble getting it produced....!

I think the material choice affects the popularity... but it is difficult to find something with better thermal properties than Al. I actually find Al’s lack of oxidation at vaping temps very impressive compared to SS and Ti. Totally Changed the way I looked at that material for sure because I don’t really like the idea of materials changing colors. One of the reasons I recommend sapphire balls over ruby these days.
The next step wants to get rid of metals direct exchange to the airflow.
A Design hard to reproduce with boro, or ceramics.
I agree with that thus far!
I do think some stuff I attributed early on to metal heaters is actually more attributed to metal bowls and oxidation in the vapor phase. I still prefer the idea of non metallic compounds (well... there are a few pure ones that are interesting!) but I did make the observation while comparing various bead materials, that perhaps just heating air with metal doesn’t taint the flavor as much as I originally anticipated. Or as much as a metal vapor path. Cause the vapor is the reactive component, much more so than the air.
U still trust only friction ? U have not learnt from all those bad cats lately, breaking, with too much catnips ?

😅😅😅 well I said “theoretically“ 😁

Plus Ive gotten some pretty stellar feedback and comments on the surviving InV 1.7’s. I probably jumped the gun halting it. I just wish I had one left myself. Got a few 1.5’s I should list in the classifieds. I actually thought about stuffing a cartridge heater in my 1.5 a long time ago as a beefed up mini G with the two improvements I always thought the G needed - sapphire beads and a bigger heater. Would be an easy way to escape the coil crunching. The air hole pattern of the 1.7 would be even better to run the wires through the central hole. And the 1.5 already has the handle attached!
 

Shadooz

Well-Known Member
😃😃😃


“there I go, right off the precipice, following the footsteps of no one else!”
Because i'm not walking :lol:
Take a wingsuit ;)

giving the illusion of “vaping at lower temps”
There is not only illusion, blast effect.

I do think some stuff I attributed early on to metal heaters is actually more attributed to metal bowls and oxidation in the vapor phase.
I suspect metal radiation. near-field having more impact than far-field, and so, easier to feel with metal bowl.

I think the material choice affects the popularity... but it is difficult to find something with better thermal properties than Al.
Copper 400 vs aluminium 200, and with indirect heating by glass or ceramic, its oxydation isn't an issue.
The supreme have indirect heating to aluminium, bottlenecked by the titanium coil conduction/radiation. Why it needs that size.
 
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invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
I suspect metal radiation. near-field having more impact than far-field, and so, easier to feel with metal bowl.

That reminds me of an observation I had about heater efficiency - a lot of people claim to want the benefits of IR heat - in which a more efficient heater isn’t really the solution. Interestingly, its those less efficient heaters that generate considerable radiant energy and create more of an “oven.”


Copper 400 vs aluminium 200, and with indirect heating by glass or ceramic, its oxydation isn't an issue.

Another interesting observation I made in my journey is many of the vapes that use “taboo” materials are actually some of the most iconic, favorited, and revered.

Whether it’s -
Al on the Supreme
Cu on the Vapman
Nickel on the Lotus

That’s why I was excited to introduce sapphire/ruby to dry herb vaping as it’s thermal properties are superior to commonly preferred materials like glass/SS/Ti but in an inert nonporous package.
 

Shadooz

Well-Known Member
Interestingly, its those less efficient heaters that generate considerable radiant energy and create more of an “oven.”
Because they didn't reach the heart, and then have poor airflow during/after.

That’s why I was excited to introduce sapphire/ruby to dry herb vaping as it’s thermal properties are superior to commonly preferred materials like glass/SS/Ti but in an inert nonporous package.
Natural ruby/sapphire yes. lab created one, i will always be more skeptical depending the labs. Broken/faulty beads, as cooler, has its risk. As heater, maybe less.
 
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El Rawn Hubbard

Well-Known Member
I can't remember all the designs from this thread but have you thought about a better Elev8R?

It seems like spiked glass already works well, it just needs to be designed with a coil in mind rather than as an afterthought. It also seems like it would be easier to manufacture than something that requires machining to close tolerances :shrug:
 
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