PD vs. MZ a Krazy Function Comparison.

[VapoFish]

I'm not sure if I should put this in the official AZ/MZ thread or what?

Anyway, Rick said that if done right, the MZ should produce no "usable" ABV. Rick, correct me if I'm wrong here ... but you said, "if you can't blow out a solid chunk of duff, you're doing it wrong". You went on to say that all the "good stuff" should be fully absorbed through vaping directly from the MZ

I "think" that's what Rick said.

 

[reece]

I don't remember anything about no usable ABV. I think what he meant was all the stuff that can be extracted with the MZ will be extracted when used properly. Vaporizers that can operate at higher temps would be able to extract more of the higher range "good stuff." Using a koozie will also get some higher range "good stuff."

 

[lwien]

I don't remember anything about no usable ABV. I think what he meant was all the stuff that can be extracted with the MZ will be extracted when used properly. Vaporizers that can operate at higher temps would be able to extract more of the higher range "good stuff." Using a koozie will also get some higher range "good stuff."

....along with some of the bad stuff.

But I've had a few PD's for quite awhile now, and I find that I don't need to use any koozie's being that my abv, after a good 5 draws is a VERY dark brown...........almost black, no ash.

Here's what I do that seems to extract almost everything it has. After 3 long, strong pulls, I will empty the bowl out on a piece of paper and crumble the abv between my fingers to almost a powder. I'll reload that and I'm able to get another 2 good hits before it's all done.

 

[VapoFish]

Yep, that's what I thought too Reece. Perhaps I misinterpreted what Rick meant.

 

[bluntfaced]

I'd like to see the heating elements of both of these devices... Are they both the same size/mass?

 

[reece]

I'd like to see the heating elements of both of these devices... Are they both the same size/mass?

Check the PD thread. There are pictures, start at the end and work back a couple of pages.

 

[leozdad]

I'd like to see the heating elements of both of these devices... Are they both the same size/mass?

heres the post

http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?id=48&p=165

Post number 4111

 

[Rick]

Vapo
I could have said that or real close. I have since learned, after perusing just a bit of FC, that different heat ranges will do different things as far as what they pull out of the load. So now I would say "no ZAP usable ABV" which would be usable in hotter devices. The plug will blow out easy when the Zap cannot get any more vapor out of it. Something else will get more, like Iwiens re-vaping method. We just never have gone that far ourselves so were not aware of the effect higher heat thru the ABV would have.

I am learning more here every day. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[VapoFish]

Thanks for clearing that up Rick.

 

[IAmKrazy2]

I just edited my last post. I slaughtered it, but somehow you guys got my meaning.

Still will get a full review in soon. Wanting to wait t a little longer to get the MZ too its peak. The heat loss is the MZ as of right now is something i noticed as significant. For best pulls, i wait 5 to 10 seconds in between with the MZ. With the PD, i can just keep going and going, no wait needed. Today i went with the MZ in the morning (before work) and the PD in the evening (after work). Even with the coozie on the MZ, the hits are still much lighter. The high seems to be a little more up honestly, a lower temp vape. The PD, fully broken in and running warm 2 or 3 months on end (probably unplugged 20minutes in a row at most) has more milky and full pulls, a little heavier high. Is this a wood density issue? I am uncertain. I know some, Pammy Days included, prefer a lower temp vape. Is this truly what i am getting? Uncertain. I still feel obligated to give the MZ another 4 or 5 days before editing my first post. But to be 100% honest, i have noticed less of a "improvement period" in performance in my first week with my MZ as i did with my PD. Funny, considering Tom claims no break in period while Rik agreed with my break in period. The MZ has improved, but just ever so slightly.

Still VERY intrigued by a variable volts plug like Rik suggested. Is a few more volts enough to get the performance i desire? I am hesitant to purchase a new plug via radio shack or whatever until i feel the break in period is done. Is this in the works Rik? I would love the chance to experiment a little, maybe up to 14 volts, a little higher then a car with the alternator running. To be honest, i would not even attempt any more volts in the PD right now, but there was a time, when i considered it. The period until i hit the optimal V=spot came so slowly with the PD, i barely noticed the progress until i looked back and thought about it. i am hoping the same will be true with the MZ.

 

[Rick]

We "Test" every unit before it leaves. That means we make what we consider to be 'good' vapor before it ships. I say a few days on 24/7 will cure the unit. Maybe it takes longer.
As far as I am concerned, you do not need to wait longer to compare the two. If the MZ makes lighter vapor, what is, is. When we ship a unit, they are ready to vape when they arrive.

Having said that, it is clearly obvious that a few degrees one way or the other affects performance. Also keep in mind Tom re-engineered the heatport design of the Eterra. Tom always liked heavier vapor as I recall so I would expect his design to give more of what he likes. So all vapor is not equal. See what a good thing FC is? Lots of info besides lots of products.

Our vapor experience is limited. We started Zaps in 2001 and have not had any experience with any other vape since then.

I also wonder about the Koozie. We never use one and they seem to work fine for us. We are used to vapor on the lighter end is all. I did see somewhere that THC gets released at lower temps with CBD, CBN at slightly higher temps. Maybe that is why some prefer lighter vapor. THC is the good stuff if you want to carry on a busy regular day and still be "there".
Go for it KRAZY, let the chips(....er clouds) fall where they may.

Also.....10-15 seconds between pulls. Hmmmm as I recall it is a benefit to hold that vapor in awhile for best results. We are not making a vapor choo choo train here.

 

[reece]

I also wonder about the Koozie. We never use one and they seem to work fine for us. We are used to vapor on the lighter end is all. I did see somewhere that THC gets released at lower temps with CBD, CBN at slightly higher temps. Maybe that is why some prefer lighter vapor. THC is the good stuff if you want to carry on a busy regular day and still be "there".
Go for it KRAZY, let the chips(....er clouds) fall where they may.

Also.....10-15 seconds between pulls. Hmmmm as I recall it is a benefit to hold that vapor in awhile for best results. We are not making a vapor choo choo train here.

I tend to only use the koozie some evenings when I'm not concerned with being "there." And it isn't every evening (I saw someone say they use the koozie 24/7). But, as lwien said, you also start getting some bad stuff as the temp climbs. So, I will use it more sparingly. But I will definitely use it. After having the koozie on for a while the vapor seems to be pretty close to smoke, but no combustion. However, I think it's too close for my tastes. It is a good way to get the vapor in the higher range if that's what you're into. You should try it, Rick.

And why can't we have a vapor choo choo? That could be interesting.

 

[DevoTheStrange]

Ive noticed the PD is more prone too making me cough over the MZ... dunno if its bigger and fuller hits...
Not saying I cough every time I use the PD. Just sometimes I'm not paying attention and take a hit that is too big for my lungs too comfortably handle. I've tried too do the same with my friends MZ, and only can achieve similar results with the PD if there is a koozie involved.

 

[MoeOnTheMoon]

I also wonder about the Koozie. We never use one and they seem to work fine for us. We are used to vapor on the lighter end is all. I did see somewhere that THC gets released at lower temps with CBD, CBN at slightly higher temps. Maybe that is why some prefer lighter vapor. THC is the good stuff if you want to carry on a busy regular day and still be "there".
Go for it KRAZY, let the chips(....er clouds) fall where they may.

Also.....10-15 seconds between pulls. Hmmmm as I recall it is a benefit to hold that vapor in awhile for best results. We are not making a vapor choo choo train here.

IF it is the case that the MZ creates a lighter vapor, I think that would be a good thing. Some, like me, do prefer a lighter vapor. I was experimenting with my VG last night and I got one hit that I could barely taste but when I exhaled it was definitely a big hit, just very light vapor. I really liked the high I got off of that "light" vapor hit (granted, this is high quality medical marijuana), as opposed to the day before when I got a big heavy hit off the Genie.

 

[Frickr]

have you tried revaping the abv from the pd in the mz and vice versa? i think this could be an intresting comparison on if either of the 2 can extract any more out of each other.

 

[bluntfaced]

Thanks for the link the the PD guts.

Have we seen the myrtle zap insides?

 

[reece]

The steel one is the PD. The brass is the MZ.

 

[IAmKrazy2]

finally updated my first post. only took a month.....

 

[MoeOnTheMoon]

finally updated my first post. only took a month.....

Thanks for the final update.
While some may prefer the thicker vapor you say you get with the PD, I hate getting that burnt popcorn taste, so the Myrtlezap is the choice for me after reading your final review.
Besides, the Myrtlezap is prettier! ;-D

 

[IAmKrazy2]

I hate getting that burnt popcorn taste

Damn. I know those are my own words but just to specify, this is very very very slight in the PD. Nothing like the E, when i go to 240 degree or higher. Just the spent taste, with the MZ you don't get there. The PD herb duff is a nice light brown with the MZ at a very very very dark green in most spots.

 

[stickstones]

looks like you get to update it again!

 

[sneezyjesus]

I don't have a PD or a MZ yet, (PD on order), but I thought I'd drop my on the efficiency topic, though it has seems to be amiable settled.

I'd just like to say why I'm almost positive there is factual information as to why, and why not, the MZ/PD are "more efficient". I know a bit about thermodynamics and how this kind of heating system actually does the job, not enough to state pure facts, but enough to make some educated guesses.

It seems to me like a pretty simple concept, one that the post regarding efficiencies of scale got me thinking about.
A whip vape has a large bowl. It is intended to be filled fully, or as full as is recommended.
The PD/MZ has a small bowl. It is intended to be filled fully, or as full as is recommended.
If you fill a whip vape with a MZ/PD size bowl, you will not be using it in the manner intended. Every vape says you don't need a full bowl, but there is a reason that bowl size varies; the manufacturers probably found the optimal bowl size for their product.

So really, the PD/MZ are not more efficient per se; more that they FULLY vaporize smaller amounts while other large-fed vaporizers PROBABLY can not.
Though I don't have any of the vapes in question, I would hazard a guess that if you packed an Extreme, vapor Bros, or Silver Surfer fully and used the same amount in a MZ/PD, you would get equally high.

Something you might want to consider testing krazy,

And am I the only one ever to actually enjoy that burnt popcorn taste?! I kinda like really roasting a bowl on my genie and vaporstar, it's like the pleasant smoky aspect without the actual shit reaction i have to inhaling burnt stuff.
Call me crazy

 

[IAmKrazy2]

Though I don't have any of the vapes in question, I would hazard a guess that if you packed an Extreme, vapor Bros, or Silver Surfer fully and used the same amount in a MZ/PD, you would get equally high.

I started off my regular vaporization on a vapor bro's unit. It's still here at my house in a box, although it is actually not mine. Haven't used it in probably over a year now. Maybe two or three times since I got my E. Never used a silver surfer, but would love to. Actually more interested in DB, price as the main factor.

The bigger vapes simply are not as efficient. You just don't get the complete even vape within the bowl on a big scale. It just doesn't happen. There is either wasted herb, or I have to crank the temp beyond my comfort zone to get the last of the goodies out. This is not something that is even remotely close in my mind. The E, even with use of the elbow and countless experience hours the E has maybe HALF the efficiency of the PD. Meaning yes, I would use almost twice as much herb (probably closer to 75% more) to get the same high. As an ex-daily E user and current daily PD user, i can say this with a lot of confidence.

Saw some talk on recovery time. Nut much of an issue in the MZ when used as intended. I feel recovery time and heat retention play a slight factor that is most noticeable while hooking the PD then the MZ up to one of my glass pieces. The PD makes much deeper and milkier hits, more enjoyable for bonging. The way my big lungs draw so long, the MZ just doesn't seem to recover and hold the heat throughout my entire first hit.

Just bonged a stem from each the MZ (13v) and PD (12v) since I wrote my last paragraph. Much lighter from the MZ, but you know what.... still damn enjoyable. Like i said, i prefer the slight thicker hits of the PD, but i still really love my MZ and give it a little love daily also. Actually have even tried both at once, a double fisting knockout. I did it as an unbiased way to test them together. Problem was i had been "testing" all day and i managed to let both stems slide out of their respective heat exchanger and on my lap prior to vaping their entire contents.... Oh well.

 

[sneezyjesus]

Well i would stand corrected then.
So you say that even with a vape like the E, a full bowl will need to be haranged a bit to get all the good out? Intertesting, I wasn't aware that was even a factor with most high quality vapes. I mean I get that with my genie sometimes when I pack half a bowl, but even with my genie I can usually vape I'd say...maybe 90% + of the good while maintaining a nice dark golden brown.

I'm curious if this is the reason that the PD/MZ is so efficient; they actually cook all the bowl completely evenly. Even more so I'm curious if, as someone who regularly scorches a VG bowl to get EVERYTHING out of it, the PD I'm getting will even increase my efficiency at all.

Oh and on a quick side note krazy, did you like your VB? I'm planning on getting a whip vape at some point and really just like the way the VB looks. Is it worth it in quality to go a price level higher in the cases of the E or the SSV/DBV?

In any case, it seems the PD/MZ has some sort of efficiency-bonus, which I'll totally be OK with using

 

[vtac]

Thanks for keeping the comparison updated.

Something worth noting is that while the PD and MZ are both undoubtedly made with a high attention to detail, slightly different densities between batches of wood as well as varying thicknesses from unit to unit, etc. can result in slight temperature variations. So your PD/MZ might run a tad hotter/cooler than someone elses. That said, reports from other owners of both seem to reflect your findings of the MZ generally running a bit cooler.

With a fixed temp vape you can't please everyone but the PD seems to do a pretty good job judging from the number of happy owners. I haven't had the opportunity to use a MZ so I can't speak from experience there. Different draw speeds and techniques can alter the effective temp a bit too, and ime having a bit of headroom is a good thing.

I can confidently say the PD is excellent at retaining heat. I've run 27 consecutive bowls through one, averaging less than 30 seconds between bowls with no noticeable drop in vapor production. These were also big, hard hits through a water pipe. Not normal usage by any means but those fins on the heat exchanger seem to work as intended.

I bet Tom and Rick never imagined people analyzing their vapes in this kind of detail... All in the name of science, of course.