PD vs. MZ a Krazy Function Comparison.

[DevoTheStrange]

if you have a nice fine grind of herb you will notice small particulate on the inside of the tube after long periods of use. Other than oil buildup. So if it can get through that screen, makes sense some will make it through the screen in the MZ unit itself.
I spanked the hell out of my friends MZ last night, all kinds of stuff came out of it.

 

[VapoFish]

Tom, I hope you aren't considering me one of the people who hate PDs.

I think PDs rock. I would have bought one had the wait time not been so long. But, now that I have my ZAP I'm glad I made that choice.

I think PDs are beautiful to look at, but cherry doesn't have the same unique grain patterns that I've seen in myrtlewood. I love that mine, like almost every MZ I've seen, looks noticeably different, depending on the grain pattern & or color.

The bottom line, and I've said it before... both the PD & the MZ are fantastic vapes.

 

[VapoFish]

......to let the mighty MZ achieve maximum temp.

lol. Got visions of a Zap all dressed up in a yellow koozie with a red cape.

"Here I come, to save the day................."

 

[Purple-Days]

No Vapo, but there is a group who do.

Like I say Myrtlewood is beautiful. I first used it in 2005 to rebuild the splitting Douglas Fir Aromazap. While doing prototype PDs I used a good bit of Myrtlewood, it came from right up the road where I used to aquire the Myrtlewood for Rick. That fellow has some sweet wood.

We get our Billy-Bowls and Tube Holders from a place about 4 blocks from here that also specializes in Myrtlewood. The woodshop fellow (returning some logo-ed PD bodies) was trying to talk me into using KD Myrtlewood (they have a kiln on site) instead of Cherry just this week, even quoted me prices... I listened politely, but told him I was happy with Cherry.

 

[reece]

......to let the mighty MZ achieve maximum temp.

lol. Got visions of a Zap all dressed up in a yellow koozie with a red cape.

"Here I come, to save the day................."

Or, "There's no need to fear..."

 

[Rick]

Anything that draws heat AWAY from the heatport will lower the temp of the air produced by the unit. That would be the Aroma Flower or something equivalent. Also denser wood. I still like to describe it as a heatsink effect.
I just brought a couple more in yesterday for soldering. Heatport, plug and any weighty item was installed in the two units. One was a standard softwood Zap, the other a Primo Myrtle. There was no doubt one would make thicker vapor initially with all else being equal because one was lighter. Not as dense. The lighter unit will keep more heat in the heatport. The denser wood will pull heat away from the heatport.

Myrtlewood, especially the kind we try to get, HAS VARYING DENSITIES IN THE WOOD, which would make it unacceptable to some but not us. Piece A will be heavier or lighter than piece B. The difference is slight but noticeable. The difference is also noticeable more when the unit is new. We have several older Myrtles made from the darker Myrtlewood which typically is denser than the lighter stuff. They have been in use for a while and they will make thick milky vapor with the ABV a nice light brown.
We have learned alot here on FC, especially the info that all vapor is not the same. What we have found with the "thicker"vapor is that it is a very fine line between it and smoke. Some of us like lighter vapor, some like heavier vapor. The heavier vapor is hotter and harsher to some.

The bottom line on both units is they are the same basic size/function vape. They utilize small loads and are very efficient at getting vapor from those small loads. There are surely differences between the two that will appeal to some on one hand and others on the other hand. We consider ours functional classic art with each piece having its own personality. Perhaps the 'Art" question is more appropriate for another thread but we do emphasize that with MyrtleZap. There are no two MyrtleZaps alike and they all make good vapor.

Also, it is only fair to say we have had our share of detractors here at FC too. I have read several posts even by a Mod that knocked us pretty good in the beginning, without hearing our side of the story.

 

[Purple-Days]

Yes ^^^.

 

[max]

We have learned alot here on FC, especially the info that all vapor is not the same. What we have found with the "thicker"vapor is that it is a very fine line between it and smoke. Some of us like lighter vapor, some like heavier vapor. The heavier vapor is hotter and harsher to some.

No fixed temp vape produces the thick, harsh, high temp vapor that you can get with a variable temp vape. Although there may be differences in the vapor between various fixed temp units, from one design to another, ie. iolite, standard Herbo, etc. , no manufacturer sets a fixed temp vape to operate in the high temp range. There's not enough market for it. So although there may be differences between PD and MZ and even differences between units of the same brand, due to varying wood densities, etc., we're not really talking about true high temp vapor with these models. They all produce the light vapor, as you call it, even when taking a huge hit off a bowl of kief, for example.

I have read several posts even by a Mod that knocked us pretty good in the beginning, without hearing our side of the story.

In defense of management, I might remind you that mods on pretty much any forum have the right to post their opinions as plain jane members. If that weren't the case, there would be never be any volunteers for mod jobs except for those who enjoy power trips. And posting as members, mods are just people who are likely to be just as opinionated, stubborn, right or wrong as anyone else.

 

[reece]

This is a comparison test of the two, by one fellow, who owns both and has access to the same transformers and uses the same draw techniques, same materials, and using the same electric grid. Not two different opinions from possibly different situations. Comments like, "Or, maybe we're having similar experiences but my thick is your light. " are irrelevant. He has done testing of both in similar circumstances and made his opinions known.

Tom, I did not question his findings. You sometimes seem to have trouble understanding my posts. Maybe you should read it again. I only referenced the comparison in the second and third sentences. The rest of my post concerned Krazy's opinion of the vapor density of the Zap. So, when you take my statement out of context, and then you say some Zap owners "hate the PD...bad light...", it seems like you are accusing me.

Tom, there seems to be a trend starting. This isn't the first time so I'll ask you as plainly as I can. Will you please stop taking my statements out of context and presenting them in a manner which makes it seem as if I mean something other than what it clearly means when taken in context?

If it is the case that you sincerely thought I was talking about the comparison, even though early in the post I said, "Thicker vapor from the PD? I can understand that," then please read my posts a few times to make sure you understand what I am saying.

And, btw, I have not bad mouthed the PD.

Thanks.

 

[Rick]

Good points Max. Yup, we all be just folks around here, some one way, some another way and some scattered all around. I have lately felt we are doing pretty good at getting along, you know, the PD/MZ thing. Sometimes some get a little pissy, some get a bit sarcastic or noisy but it all adds to the flavor of FC. Thanks for the review Krazy. I think we have all learned a bit more about the two units. I am also happy we all are staying civil with each other.

Vape on, light, heavy and heavier. Praise the Master Flow for our ONE common interest here. I could not imagine life without it.

 

[VapoFish]

Vape on, light, heavy and heavier. Praise the Master Flow for our ONE common interest here. I could not imagine life without it.

Right on Rick.

Don't know if its a coincidence or if the Master Flow just paid us a visit - but look @ the time of your post.

Rick
Today 01:11:11 pm

All ones.

 

[reece]

"Everything is on the ONE."

http://popup.lala.com/popup/432627069324256858

 

[Purple-Days]

Reece, I didn't mention Zap owners, AT ALL. So you are putting words in my mouth.

Second, I did not refer to you (because I have no issues with you), but used your post as an example of what the thread was and wasn't about (IMO).

Third, quotes taken from posts earlier in a thread (clearly indicated by quote marks) can hardly be said to be taken out of context, when anyone can go have a look just by scrolling a few posts up. Besides, don't you just hate when a person quotes a whole post and you are supposed to be Kreskin and figure out what part of the post they are quoting?

 

[reece]

Tom, when you quote me in a paragraph explaining the purpose of this thread it is hard not to think you are speaking about me.

And it is certainly out of context when you use it to illustrate what "the thread was and wasn't about." The quote you used has nothing to do with the comparison of the two units. So yes, it is irrelevant. Reading it in proper context makes it clear I am speaking of the disparities of mine and Krazy's experience with the MZ. But by saying it is irrelevant within a post explaining what is relevant makes it seem as if I was commenting on Krazy's comparison.

And that was followed by this statement, speaking to a MZ owner:

"...we know you and others hate the PD wink, and anything that will put the PD in a bad light and the Aromazap in a good one would please you greatly."

So who is it that wants to see the Zap in a good light and the PD in a bad light? Why would someone that didn't own a Zap care? I did not put words in your mouth.

I agree about only quoting the relevant parts of a post (especially long winded posts like my own). But presenting it in a different context is a horse of another color. You know the difference.

 

[Purple-Days]

I have no reason to believe Deep Fried is a Zap owner. Is he?

Sorry, if I mistook your post section that I quoted, to be a continuation of the same old mine is better than yours stuff that I took it to be. (and figured it would devolve into). Irrelevant was an inflamitory word (looking back on it). Sorry about that, too.

 

[reece]

I have no reason to believe Deep Fried is a Zap owner. Is he?

Sorry, if I mistook your post section that I quoted, to be a continuation of the same old mine is better than yours stuff that I took it to be. (and figured it would devolve into). Irrelevant was an inflamitory word (looking back on it). Sorry about that, too.

Cool, no worries. I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't engaging in that nonsense (not that I don't engage in nonsense, just not that nonsense). I am genuinely curious as to whether our experiences are different or if it's our descriptions of the experience. I would normally write it off as the latter but there was a similar situation with the Supreme Vaporizer. Someone did a review and he was vaping with the SV at well above 300 degrees. My SV would burn the herbs if I went anywhere above 300. Thinking back on that made me wonder if our Zaps were operating differently. I hope that explains where I was coming from.

Now that you mention it, I'm not sure if Deep Fried owns a Zap. I think he does. That contributed to my reaction. Maybe if I had been more clear I wouldn't have jumped to conclusions about your intent. I apologize for that.

 

[Purple-Days]

All cool.

Even things like elevation can make comparing one user's experience to another person's difficult. Then there are tons of other variables.

 

[Beezleb]

Not only is the review/comparison of great value so is the overall discussion about it. In so doing an understanding of the degrees of difference can be better understood. I appreciate this discussion which often leads to a deeper understanding of the products that otherwise is difficult to understand without being a regular user of the product.

I look forward to more of this discussion and sincerely thank all those who contributed and those who will contribute to it in the future.

 

[IAmKrazy2]

Light and thick are subjective terms. Thicker vapor from the PD? I can understand that. Vapor from the MZ is too light? I can't wrap my head around that, going by my experience. I just can't see anyone using the term light, much less too light, to describe the vapor I get.

Reece.... Maybe if i had bought the MZ first, I would assume the vapor was anything but light. But with my 12v MZ, it seems VERY light against my 12v PD. It's not close. With the 13v plug MZ as I said before I enjoy the vape experience a whole lot more. Enough to use it in my rotation daily.
I also noticed performance increase in my PD months after use, I no longer needed a coozie. I said the exact same thing about my PD probably a month or longer ago. I assume you read that post.

We have learned alot here on FC, especially the info that all vapor is not the same. What we have found with the "thicker"vapor is that it is a very fine line between it and smoke. Some of us like lighter vapor, some like heavier vapor. The heavier vapor is hotter and harsher to some.

This is no where near smoke. I can assure you, it is a low enough temp vape to leave the buzz "up" or energetic.

How can you compare burnt popcorn taste between a vape at 190c and one at over 240c?, that just makes absolutely no sense. Why don't you turn down your Extreme to 190c and then make a comparison. Don't you think the burnt popcorn taste you experience with the PD could be caused by there being no screen and bits of herb falling onto the resistor and burning. No matter how careful you are, herb will always fall onto the resistor unless you use the PD upside down always.

The burnt popcorn thing has nothing to do with herb falling in my HE. If you have a PD, you'll know its a non issue. I do typically hit it upside down, force of habit really. Not needed. I also usually tell friends who pack light bowls to take the first hit upside down, this will set the load together, and the next hits do not matter as nothing will fall even when you pack it very light.

DeepFried.... As far as comparing a variable temp vape to a fixed low temp vape i really was only saying that they DO NOT compare in taste. The E can get way hotter, and was simply giving people who are familiar with that vape a frame of reference. for taste. Read that post and the other one where i talk about variable temp vapes and how they don't compare. The PD never gets hot enough to give me that truly unpleasant taste.

Let me state it this way, the PD and MZ both taste like my E @ about 195 degrees. But both the PD (12v) and MZ (13v) produce much thicker hits than an elbow in my E at that temp. To get hits as thick as what i can achieve with the MZ or PD in thickness i would have to jump to probally around 210 or 215

Edit.... Just noticed after this post the last few everyone has started to be ultra civil and it seems like a fight for world peace. A quote here, "Let's not start sucking eachothers dicks quiet yet"..... Wow, just kidding. Both are great units.

 

[Purple-Days]

Fuck world peace, never gonna happen(Currently listening to Orwell's 1984). But some of us aren't at war.

We have covered wood density, somewhat. But wood density isn't the only factor as I mentioned. Very dense woods like Pink Ivory and Ebony (and dense Myrtlewood) will lower the delivered temperature, by a little. The lower R-Value of these dense woods allow heat to be transmitted more quickly to the outside, you might call it a heat sink effect. But it only lowers the temperature by a few (2-3 F) degrees (IME).

Pammy uses a Pink Ivory unit and a East Indian Rosewood unit on 12 Volts all the time. I prefer Cherry or Walnut because they run a few degrees warmer. The warmer temperatures in the Cherry and Walnut are not harsh or smoke-like. Matter of fact, I will only 'smoke' when obligated to by custom (a few times a year at most), never out of preference.

So even with denser woods (Myrtlewood prototypes and exotics) the PD heat exchanger performs well, but wasn't exactly what I was after for a commercial product.

That brings up the other factor that I mentioned earlier, the Heat Exchanger. From the start I could see that the simple geometry of the Aromazap heat exchanger could be improved and modern materials could be used. Never gonna say the A-zap design doesn't work, it does, we enjoyed one for a couple of years. But, I saw room for improvement.

I have mentioned 'delivered heat' a couple of times. The Aromazap/Myrtlezap uses the same value resistor and same input Voltage as the Purple-Days Diffuser. Therefor it can be assumed the two heat sinks are getting the same BTU (heat) input*.

BTUs transfered into to the air-stream is the difference. Simple geometry of the Aromazap heat exchanger vs. Complex geometry of the Purple-Days heat exchanger.

The 'at rest' temperatures of the heat exchangers (minus any variation produced by insulation, etc.) are going to be pretty equal. That heat has to be transferred to the air-stream. How better to transfer heat than with fins? Look at any car radiator, or heat sink on a computer or stereo or other device intended to give up heat to air. Fins! And 5 separate heat sinks. And tighter vapor path. And smaller/fewer intakes for turbulence. All contribute to a greater heat transfer rate. Delivered Temperature over the length of the draw was the goal and the result.

Increasing Voltage will increase input BTU and raise the temperature of the heat sink, but increased temperature was not what I was after. I was after increased temperature delivery.

*The Aromazap design uses a LED and associated circuitry. I believe this has a zero, or near zero, effect on the differences of the units.

 

[reece]

Reece.... Maybe if i had bought the MZ first, I would assume the vapor was anything but light. But with my 12v MZ, it seems VERY light against my 12v PD. It's not close. With the 13v plug MZ as I said before I enjoy the vape experience a whole lot more. Enough to use it in my rotation daily.
I also noticed performance increase in my PD months after use, I no longer needed a coozie. I said the exact same thing about my PD probably a month or longer ago. I assume you read that post.

Right, but like I said, I'm not talking about the comparison to the PD. The confusion is my fault. You are clearly comparing the two (sorry again Tom). Again, when comparing the two, lighter and thicker are relative terms. When you say the PD produces thicker vapor I completely understand. But when you said the MZ vapor was too light, something must have short circuited in my brain because I thought you were speaking in general terms rather than comparative. This is where my questions were based. Basically I was changing the subject and didn't let anyone in on it. Including myself.

 

[DeepFried]

Deep Fried, we know you and others hate the PD , and anything that will put the PD in a bad light and the Aromazap in a good one would please you greatly.

And the award for best dramatic performance in a vapor forum goes to....

Pleeze, I don't even own an MZ and if "I would do anything to put the PD in a bad light" then why would I have bought 2 of them?. If you bought a $200.00 tool and hated it as much as you claim I "hate the PD", would you go out and buy a 2nd one of the exact same tool? it makes no sense.

However you might have misconstrued some posts I have made debating others views and opinions on the PD as "a hate for the PD". This is a forum, which I may post my opinions and views on a product I own and use, some may be negative and some may be positive. Just because I might debate someones claim about the PD does not mean that I have a hate on for it.

But, when I took the leather and cardboard bottom off my first Aromazap to repair the failed wiring there was a load of duff in the bottom cavity of the Aromazap, kinda surprised me. It had fallen through the screen. While the screen may stop some material it certainly doesn't stop it all, not even close.

Exactly my point. If that much "duff" was in the bottom of the Aromazap which has a screen, then how much "duff" will be in the bottom cavity of a PD that does not have a screen over the same time period?. Logic would dictate the PD would have a lot more.

Your 'burnt popcorn smell' is largely a user issue (loading technique) and not related to function, or a comparison of the function of the two vapes. Matter of fact, seems the taste was related to 'last' hits (and temperature) rather than material falling into the heat exchanger, according to the poster. Red Herring.

I agree, not much we can do about gravity.

Edit.... Just noticed after this post the last few everyone has started to be ultra civil and it seems like a fight for world peace. A quote here, "Let's not start sucking eachothers dicks quiet yet"..... Wow, just kidding. Both are great units.

Dude, I don't know about you and your friends, but around here we just shake hands.

 

[Purple-Days]

Yes, Deepfried, I thought you hated the PD. I was nearly sure you owned one. And like I said (have said many times) it's not for everyone. Others are welcome to point that out too. I didn't think you owned an MZ, Deep Fried, but couldn't know. Folks can hate a PD without being an MZ owner, it's not an exclusive club. Sorry about drama, there is such a limit to this type of communication. And 'wild' claims should be debated, and crushed, express yourself freely.

 

[Happycamper]

Deepfried:

I'm happy for you and your magic screen.

You are forgetting pd users can spank the unit to get the duff out. (so effectively there will be no duff at the bottom really) However the magic screen will prevent anything that has got in your MZ unit from getting back out.

If you tear the cardboard off the bottom you should be able to tell.

Edit:

Quote Deepfired:
'Pleeze, I don't even own an MZ '


What? Why are you even going on about the screen in the MZ?.

Now that i know this, it all makes sense.

You obviously have no idea how either unit works, especially if you think that screen the MZ has is something life changing.

Just from using the PD i can tell it's not. You dont understand the burnt popcorn thing either. Herb falling into the unit does not cause this. Even Krazy has tried to clear up that this is an extremely minor point and has been made into somthing bigger than it is.

 

[IAmKrazy2]

IAmKrazy2 wrote:

Edit.... Just noticed after this post the last few everyone has started to be ultra civil and it seems like a fight for world peace. A quote here, "Let's not start sucking eachothers dicks quiet yet"..... Wow, just kidding. Both are great units.

Dude, I don't know about you and your friends, but around here we just shake hands.

Watch Pulp Fiction. Great flick... That's a Harvey Keitel quote.


The burnt popcorn thing again... It is something related to the last few puffs when tons of puffs are taken. I would assume if either unit was spanked out often, it will continue to be a non issue.